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Old 09-12-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
holt_bruce81
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Originally Posted by Bulldogs View Post
Kinda unfair to say though as you're listing him above an All-Pro linebacker. This after you listed Bradford ahead of multiple quarterbacks he has no place being.
I just don't think Bowman is clearly better than him. Did he have a great year last year? Absolutely. It's probably because after he and Chris Long, in the past there's been no one on our defense so those two really stood out. The Rams haven't had a LB this good since the London Fletcher days. He is the leader of that defense.

And that QB thread is hilarious. Guys were all over Flacco at the end of last year, he plays one game and bam, everyone thinks hes a HOFer. Sorry, I like him and I think he's a hell of a Quarterback. But people overreact.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else notice how the Rams are becoming the Titans all over again? Pretty good, maybe great 4-3 defense, strong running game, but a disappointing high-pick QB and no receivers. Vintage Jeff Fisher.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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But most of those weren't Fisher's picks.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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the pilejumper crap is from Sniper back when JL was at tOSU because he got a lot of assisted tackles on the Ohio State stat sheet (which OSU was notorious for awarding 3 or 4 assisted tackles on a single play a lot).
Yeah. Sniper would have thought Dick Butkus was lousy if he were wearing the red and gray.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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This is only making it harder for sf to resign Bowman. Willis and Bowman are CLEarly above Laurenitis.

Not taking away from Laurenitis. He's a solid MLB but St Louis overpaid. He's not a pro bowler. Idk where he even fits into top 10 and usually only the top 5 or 6 in the nfl get that money.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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But most of those weren't Fisher's picks.
I'm not blaming Fisher, he hasn't had time yet. I just think it's funny that the rut he fell into in TN is already happening in STL, with little influence from him.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I just don't think Bowman is clearly better than him. Did he have a great year last year? Absolutely. It's probably because after he and Chris Long, in the past there's been no one on our defense so those two really stood out. The Rams haven't had a LB this good since the London Fletcher days. He is the leader of that defense.

And that QB thread is hilarious. Guys were all over Flacco at the end of last year, he plays one game and bam, everyone thinks hes a HOFer. Sorry, I like him and I think he's a hell of a Quarterback. But people overreact.
You aren't really explaining why you believe he's a superior player to Bowman though. What is it that Laurinaitis does in his 4-3 defense that makes him an all around better player than Bowman in San Francisco's 3-4 scheme?
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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It's kind of tough to make an argument for Laurinaitis over Bowman/Willis.

It's even harder to say that things would be different if he played for the 49'ers as Laurinaitis would get his lunch ate if he played in a 3-4. This is another reason why it is hard to compare him to the other ILB in the division.

End of the day, Laurinaitis is a little above average in terms of ILB. Never going to by a big hitter, never going to be a big time penetrator; but he is smart, instinctive and a leader on that defense.
Agree about the 3-4 angle as well. I've never been quite sold on his instincts either, granted his D-Line was never the greatest but neither was Willis early on. Honestly, he's not better than Washington either. Hell, I'd say he's no better than Larry Grant. Nothing about his game stands out. He has average instincts and I've seen him over-run plays far too many times. I rarely see him make tackles in the backfield or blow up plays with regularity. Doesn't shed well either. Far too many times, a FB takes him out of the play. Most of his successfully plays are backside pursuit but if the play is run right at him, he's invisible 9 times out of 10. Teams gameplanned for Willis for years, yet his impact was still felt each and every game. NOBODY gameplans for JL and yet most times I watch him, I forget he's even on the field. He has some tools but top 2 ILB in our division? Not even close.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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He is better than Larry Grant...
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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I just don't think Bowman is clearly better than him. Did he have a great year last year? Absolutely. It's probably because after he and Chris Long, in the past there's been no one on our defense so those two really stood out. The Rams haven't had a LB this good since the London Fletcher days. He is the leader of that defense.

And that QB thread is hilarious. Guys were all over Flacco at the end of last year, he plays one game and bam, everyone thinks hes a HOFer. Sorry, I like him and I think he's a hell of a Quarterback. But people overreact.
Did you watch Bowman against the Packers? At this point, its not a stretch to say he's neck and next with Willis, Ray Ray, DJ, and Cush for best ILB in the entire league. There's nothing Bowman can't do. He may actually be a shade better overall than Willis because he's so good in coverage and is a excellent blitzer. Never seen a ILB beat O-Lineman consistently as blitzing LB like Bowman. Are you forgetting last year was only his second year in the league? He's still learning and getting better. I understand JL is your guy and all but c'mon man....Willis was getting love when our defense was horrible and he had nothing around him. If your a baller, you will stand out in most instances.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe this conversation is even going on. Lauranitis is a good player. A solid player, someone that you want on the field being a general. The contract is on the high side, but still in the right ballpark for a key player for a team that has no injury history and is in his prime.

But to compare him to Willis or Bowman??? Laughable.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Whomever said Larry Grant and Paris Lenon were better is some stupid idiot from stupidville.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:38 AM    (permalink
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Sean Lee >>
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:33 AM    (permalink
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To be fair, Willis and Bowman are the 2 best ILBs in the entire league, let alone the NFC West.

That's still a lot of money for a good ILB, but when you're a bottom dweller team, you have to overpay to get talent. That's just how it is.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:38 AM    (permalink
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I just want to see the contract Bowmans Agent requests this offseason. If a solid MLB gets that lucrative contract, how much does he think Bowmans worth, an all pro ?

As a Psu alum and watching Bowman I thought he would be good but the 3-4 ilb wasn't a fit. Clearly he proved many wrong and is outstanding in that role.
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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I can't see how SF can afford to keep him and Willis. It would be amazing if they did, but I can't see it.

He really is more of a WILL in that scheme though. 3-4 ILBs aren't as different from 4-3 backers as we think. Most teams use a lot of 1 gap schemes, so it's pretty much the same position. Especially since Willis takes on more of the thumper role.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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I can't see how SF can afford to keep him and Willis. It would be amazing if they did, but I can't see it.

He really is more of a WILL in that scheme though. 3-4 ILBs aren't as different from 4-3 backers as we think. Most teams use a lot of 1 gap schemes, so it's pretty much the same position. Especially since Willis takes on more of the thumper role.
Actually Bowman is the "TED" so he's more the role of 'thumper'. Willis has always been the MIKE, always will be when he and Bowman are on the field. But the ILBs for the most part are interchangeable, depending on what side of the field a play is run and the defense that is called for that particular play. Essentially both Bowman and Willis are more MIKE's by nature though. But we drafted Bowman to play along side Willis. We drafted him to play that 'thumper'/TED position , which he is more suited for than Willis. But when Willis got hurt last year, it didn't hurt us because Bowman moved over to MIKE, his more natural position as a pro and Grant was inserted as the TED, a role tailor made for his skill set. Grant is really the only true 'thumper' on the roster.

The thing with Bowman is, when we drafted him, I don't anyone thought he was as dynamic and athletic as he wound up being. I know I saw him as a guy who could bulk up and be a good 'thumper' in that TED role and be very good at that, but I had no clue he was a Willis type of all-around great at everything he does kind of 'backer.

As far as keeping Bowman, I think they'll be able to keep both. I used to say, no way does Baalke invest that much in one position, but they both are a integral part of what we do upfront and in coverage, I don't see them not keeping him. Willis cap number actually decreases each year, after this season to some manageable numbers(his hit this year is 17 million I believe).

If they had to choose, at this point I would say they would probably go with Bowman. That might be blasphemy for me speak such things as a Niner fan but business wise, you have to look at this objectively. Bowman probably hits the market in another two years. He'll be just hitting his peak. We would have had Willis in his prime for those two years along with the majority of his career. But long-term, Willis has been more injury prone, which may only get worst as he gets older. We could transition seamless from Willis to Bowman and not really skip a beat. Baalke got a glimpse last year of life without Willis and it wasn't as bad as some thought. And honestly, Bowman has shown a more complete game at this point. His coverage is awesome and he's a better blitzer than Pat. But I truly believe when all is said and done, we' ll end up keeping both.

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Old 09-13-2012, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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I would try my ass off to keep both. The Bears have shown us what having 2LBs with great range can do for a defense. You completely take away the middle of the field and the check down routes with 2 stud LBs. It's huge for your defense.

It's a lot of money to put in 1 position though.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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I would try my ass off to keep both. The Bears have shown us what having 2LBs with great range can do for a defense. You completely take away the middle of the field and the check down routes with 2 stud LBs. It's huge for your defense.

It's a lot of money to put in 1 position though.
I absolutely agree. A key part of why our D rose to another level last year was letting Spikes walk in free agency and trusting that Bowman would be ready. And he defintely was. I thought Spikes-Willis was damn good. But Bowman-Willis was on another level. I'd be devasted to see either of them leave. Hopefully Baalke already has a plan in place to keep both. But I could see Bowman taking a huge payday and going home to Baltimore to take over for Ray Ray though. That's like my worst nightmare actual. He just had a baby and I think he's wants to be closer to his family, who are all in Maryland.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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I absolutely agree. A key part of why our D rose to another level last year was letting Spikes walk in free agency and trusting that Bowman would be ready. And he defintely was. I thought Spikes-Willis was damn good. But Bowman-Willis was on another level. I'd be devasted to see either of them leave. Hopefully Baalke already has a plan in place to keep both. But I could see Bowman taking a huge payday and going home to Baltimore to take over for Ray Ray though. That's like my worst nightmare actual. He just had a baby and I think he's wants to be closer to his family, who are all in Maryland.
You know what's funny about your 2 ILBs? Mike Singletary was against drafting Willis. He didn't see it in him. But was convinced by your GM that he's the real deal.

But when it came to Bowman, Singletary was banging the table for him. Singletary swore he was gonna be the best ILB in the game, and desperately wanted him.

Singletary was so off on one of them, yet so spot on with the other. Just found that interesting. He'd tell Bowman during his rookie year that he was gonna be the best ILB in the league. I found that interesting.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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Wait so Willis is gonna be a FA soon? I coulda sworn he signed a fat contract a couple years ago. Maybe it was another LB I'm thinking of.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Wait so Willis is gonna be a FA soon? I coulda sworn he signed a fat contract a couple years ago. Maybe it was another LB I'm thinking of.
Willis isn't going anywhere as he signed a monster deal in 2010 that keeps him here until 2016 at least.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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I absolutely agree. A key part of why our D rose to another level last year was letting Spikes walk in free agency and trusting that Bowman would be ready. And he defintely was. I thought Spikes-Willis was damn good. But Bowman-Willis was on another level. I'd be devasted to see either of them leave. Hopefully Baalke already has a plan in place to keep both. But I could see Bowman taking a huge payday and going home to Baltimore to take over for Ray Ray though. That's like my worst nightmare actual. He just had a baby and I think he's wants to be closer to his family, who are all in Maryland.
They're not going to break up the best linebacker duo in the NFL. As a matter of fact, I think when it gets down to the grind in years to come, the linebackers will be taken care of first. You saw last offseason Ahmad Brooks getting his deal done first over Carlos Rogers, which I was very happy about because if we had to lose one I'd rather use lose Rogers. Brooks, Willis, Smith, and Bowman really make a lot of things work. After that I'd say Justin Smith and Ray McDonald and then the members of the secondary. Well, maybe Justin Smith above a couple of those linebackers, but he is getting up there in age.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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You know what's funny about your 2 ILBs? Mike Singletary was against drafting Willis. He didn't see it in him. But was convinced by your GM that he's the real deal.

But when it came to Bowman, Singletary was banging the table for him. Singletary swore he was gonna be the best ILB in the game, and desperately wanted him.
Where are you getting this stuff from? Singletary fell in love with Willis at the Senior Bowl when the Niner staff was coaching it. Couldn't stop raving about him. Hell, Singletary wasn't even the head coach back then. He was only a LB coach. And the GM at the time was head coach Mike Nolan. They didn't even have a GM for a couple of years after that. Singletary is such a hardheaded moron, he would never allow anyone to sway his opinion, especially when it comes to an opinion on a linebacker. That would never happen.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Where are you getting this stuff from? Singletary fell in love with Willis at the Senior Bowl when the Niner staff was coaching it. Couldn't stop raving about him. Hell, Singletary wasn't even the head coach back then. He was only a LB coach. And the GM at the time was head coach Mike Nolan. They didn't even have a GM for a couple of years after that. Singletary is such a hardheaded moron, he would never allow anyone to sway his opinion, especially when it comes to an opinion on a linebacker. That would never happen.
Singletary said so himself numerous times. I don't have any links but I'm sure I'm not the only one who recalls this.
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