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Old 04-03-2013, 07:15 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Okay Homer Forenci, we will see. But what we do know is you are out of a 2nd rounder and at least a 3rd.
He's not a Chiefs fan bro...
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:38 AM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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He's not a Chiefs fan bro...
Walks like one, talks like one. He called me out as a homer simply because I think the trade for Flynn was a better trade than the one for Smith. No one here has ever seen me even comment on Flynn prior to this trade. I am basing my opinion on the facts of the trade, not my fandom.

- The Chiefs overpaid for Smith IMO and I said this before the Flynn Trade. IMO, Smith is worth a 3rd rounder. They gave up a 2nd in this years draft and 3rd in next year's draft and I believe that 3rd could increase if incentives are met.

- The Raiders did not overpay for Flynn who has far less experience, but similar talent IMO. They gave up a next year's 5th and a conditional 2015 pick. My thought is that even if incentives are met and that conditional late rounder is given up, it means that Flynn did some good things and is easily worth it.

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Old 04-03-2013, 07:54 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Walks like one, talks like one.
Or maybe he's being subjective and exercising common sense in saying that mediocre backup qbs aren't the solution to the problem?
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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I have kind of resigned myself to the likelihood that the pick is going to be Joeckel or Fisher, no one will trade for Albert, and we'll either be stuck with a clusterfudge in the locker room (or not in the locker room if he holds out) or give away Albert for a song after the draft.

Figures that this is the year we get the #1 pick.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Or maybe he's being subjective and exercising common sense in saying that mediocre backup qbs aren't the solution to the problem?
I think you meant to say "objective." And who said he was the solution to "the problem?" The last time I checked, franchise QBs aren't acquired by giving up 5th rounders. Our own GM said that he would have a chance to COMPETE for the starting job. He's a stop gap if you haven't figured it out. Anyone with the believe that the Raiders think Matt Flynn is "the answer" has a poor understanding of the situation.

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Old 04-03-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Hmm. Dion Jordan, OLB is reportedly one of the finalist for the Chefs selection. Don't they read Pro Football Focus?
1. Russ Lande from NFP is reporting it. Lande is an idiot. He has Ryan Nassib going #1 overall. Just look back at his prior big boards and scouting reports to get an idea why he isn't employed by the NFL.

2. Teams are in lockdown pre-draft. I seriously doubt that anyone outside the organization has this info unless it was purposefully leaked by the team (i.e. smoke).
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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I think you meant to say "objective." And who said he was the solution to "the problem?" The last time I checked, franchise QBs aren't acquired by giving up 5th rounders. Our own GM said that he would have a chance to COMPETE for the starting job. He's a stop gap if you haven't figured it out. Anyone with the believe that the Raiders think Matt Flynn is "the answer" has a poor understanding of the situation.
A stop gap who will "compete" for the starting job...making 6 million guaranteed...on a team that is in salary cap hell..oh and this stop gap's best case scenario is taking your team into football purgatory, aka an 8-8 season.

And people wonder why I rip Reggie McKenzie. That's an awful move.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Walks like one, talks like one. He called me out as a homer simply because I think the trade for Flynn was a better trade than the one for Smith. No one here has ever seen me even comment on Flynn prior to this trade. I am basing my opinion on the facts of the trade, not my fandom.

- The Chiefs overpaid for Smith IMO and I said this before the Flynn Trade. IMO, Smith is worth a 3rd rounder. They gave up a 2nd in this years draft and 3rd in next year's draft and I believe that 3rd could increase if incentives are met.

- The Raiders did not overpay for Flynn who has far less experience, but similar talent IMO. They gave up a next year's 5th and a conditional 2015 pick. My thought is that even if incentives are met and that conditional late rounder is given up, it means that Flynn did some good things and is easily worth it.
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I think you meant to say "objective." And who said he was the solution to "the problem?" The last time I checked, franchise QBs aren't acquired by giving up 5th rounders. Our own GM said that he would have a chance to COMPETE for the starting job. He's a stop gap if you haven't figured it out. Anyone with the believe that the Raiders think Matt Flynn is "the answer" has a poor understanding of the situation.
Oh lord. First of all I am a Giants fan. Calling me a homer is probably the most absurd thing you could ever say. Heck, I sort of like the Raiders. My dad loves them, so I have a soft spot for them. Secondly, when did I ever call you a homer? Not once. You're probably confusing that for Vidae or somebody else.

No one thinks Matt Flynn is the answer. That's the point. Now you probably have another useless QB and just enough of a reason not to pursue one in the draft.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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1. Russ Lande from NFP is reporting it. Lande is an idiot. He has Ryan Nassib going #1 overall. Just look back at his prior big boards and scouting reports to get an idea why he isn't employed by the NFL.

2. Teams are in lockdown pre-draft. I seriously doubt that anyone outside the organization has this info unless it was purposefully leaked by the team (i.e. smoke).
I actually agree that Lande is an idiot when it comes to player evaluation. What he is reporting is not his own player evaluation. This is a poor attempt on you part to link the two and discredit the report.

You can say it's a smokescreen, but you don't know that for a fact, do you? That's your opinion. My opinion is that is makes some sense for the Chiefs to consider Jordan who is a very different player than Ali, Pro Bowler or not. Ali cannot cover, Jordan can. Jordan is also bigger and younger. He makes at least as mush sense as drafting Joeckel.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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Oh lord. First of all I am a Giants fan. Calling me a homer is probably the most absurd thing you could ever say. Heck, I sort of like the Raiders. My dad loves them, so I have a soft spot for them. Secondly, when did I ever call you a homer? Not once. You're probably confusing that for Vidae or somebody else.

No one thinks Matt Flynn is the answer. That's the point. Now you probably have another useless QB and just enough of a reason not to pursue one in the draft.
I apologize in that I believe I did get the homer comment confused with you. As far as Matt Flynn being the answer, did you read what I wrote or not? The Raiders are under no illusions that their problems will all be solved this year. We are clearing caps space for next year. Also, we are down a 2nd round pick this year. Finding a QB is a two year process for us. Once again, Flynn will compete with Pryor and this is straight from the GM's mouth. He was mever annoited the "answer" to anything other than providing competition at the position. Through two posts, you have insisted that the Raiders believe he is "the answer." Here's the deal: If the Raiders like what they have seen from the QB winner after next year, they will roll with that QB. If they don't, they will look to fill QB next year when they have a full compliment of picks in 2014. Why is that so hard to understand? By the way, since you have such a strong opinion, what is YOUR solution to the Raiders QB problems, drafting Geno Smith with the #3 pick and then don't pick again until the 3rd round?
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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A stop gap who will "compete" for the starting job...making 6 million guaranteed...on a team that is in salary cap hell..oh and this stop gap's best case scenario is taking your team into football purgatory, aka an 8-8 season.

And people wonder why I rip Reggie McKenzie. That's an awful move.
LOL at your analysis, even though you appear to be a fellow Knicks fan. First of all, we are in salary cap hell because of deals that Reggie McKenize had nothing to do with . You think it's and easy job to pull this franchise out of this $hit hole? Second of all, do you understand that we SAVED money by getting rid of puss sack Palmer and replacing him with Flynn? Would you rather have paid Palmer $13 and STILL have no longer term solution at QB? This is the best anyone could hope for given the lack of resources we have this year- no cap space, down two draft picks. You should be thanking god for a GM like McKenkie who knows what the priorities are and thinks long term.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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LOL at your analysis, even though you appear to be a fellow Knicks fan. First of all, we are in salary cap hell because of deals that Reggie McKenize had nothing to do with . You think it's and easy job to pull this franchise out of this $hit hole? Second of all, do you understand that we SAVED money by getting rid of puss sack Palmer and replacing him with Flynn? Would you rather have paid Palmer $13 and STILL have no longer term solution at QB? This is the best anyone could hope for given the lack of resources we have this year- no cap space, down two draft picks. You should be thanking god for a GM like McKenkie who knows what the priorities are and thinks long term.
I'm isolating McKenzie's decisions from the past. He should cut or trade Palmer and draft his qb of the future. Giving 6 million dollars guaranteed to either:

A) A backup quarterback

or

B) A mediocre starting stop gap quarterback

Is a terrible allocation of resources. He could have used that 6 million dollars on players who will do more to help him shape up the roster he's rebuilding.

The worst thing you want to be in football is football purgatory, aka 8-8. You don't make moves that make you 8-8. You make moves that either make you 10-6+, or moves that make you 4-12.

8-8 gets you no where. Getting Flynn is your typical 8-8 move. You don't do that when you're rebuilding. It's a bad move.

So he's letting contracts die and cutting dead weight. Big deal, any GM can do that. It doens't take a good GM to do that. A good GM would make other moves WHILE doing that wihch would benefit the team. He is not doing that.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm isolating McKenzie's decisions from the past. He should cut or trade Palmer and draft his qb of the future. Giving 6 million dollars guaranteed to either:

A) A backup quarterback

or

B) A mediocre starting stop gap quarterback

Is a terrible allocation of resources. He could have used that 6 million dollars on players who will do more to help him shape up the roster he's rebuilding.

The worst thing you want to be in football is football purgatory, aka 8-8. You don't make moves that make you 8-8. You make moves that either make you 10-6+, or moves that make you 4-12.

8-8 gets you no where. Getting Flynn is your typical 8-8 move. You don't do that when you're rebuilding. It's a bad move.

So he's letting contracts die and cutting dead weight. Big deal, any GM can do that. It doens't take a good GM to do that. A good GM would make other moves WHILE doing that wihch would benefit the team. He is not doing that.
LOL, let me show you where you are wrong. First, IF we go 8-8 with little changes other than the QB, then that 4 win improvement reflects favorably on the QB you are dogging out. Second, if we have a losing record, that means that a) we know that we still need a franchise QB and b) we will be picking high in the draft in order to secure one.

I love how you blow off cutting dead weight. Not only are so many GMs NOT willing to do that, such as the one we had for the past 6 decades, but you have to do so correctly as to maximize your cap savings while having a plan to fill holes. This GM is doing it the right way. He is using his two June 1st exemptions and he is filling holes with players who are still young and looking for starting opportunities- Simms, Roach, Maiava, Porter, etc.

Six mil to do "more"? LOL, like sign an overrated FA who's only reason to come to the Raiders would be to cash a paycheck? Oh right, that's worked in the past!! To quote Obama, those the same tactics that got us in this mess in the first place. Tell, me, are you an Al loyalist or a Palmer loyalists?

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Old 04-03-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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I think Oakland's doing it the right way, they were a team going nowhere fast and cutting deadwood and overpaid veterans is definitely the best route for them.
I like Black's ideas about the type of FA's worth signing on a rebuilding team, he's right on about avoiding high priced veterans who are looking for a last big paycheck, far better to sign young FA's still trying to find a place in the NFL.
I looks like it will be at least 3 years before Oakland is competitive again and they will need to build through the draft to establish a foundation for success.
Then, they can use their huge caqp $$$'s to sign FA's to fill in around that foundation.
I'm a firm believer that you have to be willing to finish last if you want to rebuild a contender from nothing. Staying in the middle of the pack is useless.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I think Oakland's doing it the right way, they were a team going nowhere fast and cutting deadwood and overpaid veterans is definitely the best route for them.
I like Black's ideas about the type of FA's worth signing on a rebuilding team, he's right on about avoiding high priced veterans who are looking for a last big paycheck, far better to sign young FA's still trying to find a place in the NFL.
I looks like it will be at least 3 years before Oakland is competitive again and they will need to build through the draft to establish a foundation for success.
Then, they can use their huge caqp $$$'s to sign FA's to fill in around that foundation.
I'm a firm believer that you have to be willing to finish last if you want to rebuild a contender from nothing. Staying in the middle of the pack is useless.
Exactly. Signing doubley high priced free agents the second we let go of high priced free agents makes no sense. We have spent what little money we had very will this season.

LB Nick Roach- played well as the Bears primarly LB back up with starts, 27 years old.

LB Kaluka Maiava- 4th LB on the USC crew of Matthews, Malaluga, and Cushing, primary back up with the Browns with starts, 26 years old.

NT Pat Simms- Excellent against the run, coming off and injury, 27 years old.

LB Kevin Burnett- Established vet who's play graded out very high at his position, 30 years old. Better player than the guy we let go and the Dolphins over paid for in Philip Wheeler.

DT Vance Walker- 7th rounder the same year the Falcons drafted DT Peria Jerry in the first round, outplayed Jerry as a primary back up with starts, 27 years old.

CB Tracy Porter- Starter, famous SB pick six against Peyton Manning, coming off of medical, 26 years old.

The list of bad contracts we got rid of:

Darius Heyward-Bey
Carson Palmer
Richard Seymour
Tommy Kelly
Michael Huff

One year wonders we refused to over pay for:

OLB Philip Wheeler
TE Brandon "No YAC" Meyers

The only guy that I wanted to keep, I now realize we could not have afforded based on the money he got, and that's DT Desmond Bryant.

Here are the order of operations for our future success, and it involves biting a few bullets.

2012- Assessment

2013- Cut dead weight and bloated contracts, replace with football first, inexpensive, young mid tier free agents. Sign bunch of targeted undrafted free agents gems.

2014- Add to the talent base with a full compliment of draft picks. Resolve QB direction. Establish Oakland as a "team on the rise" and not a place where overprived once great free agents go do die.

2015- Contend

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Old 04-03-2013, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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I would be surprised if the Raiders are contending for anything except the first overall pick by 2015.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:33 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Exactly. Signing doubley high priced free agents the second we let go of high priced free agents makes no sense. Here are the order of operations for our future success, and it involved biting a few bullets.

2012- Assessment

2013- Cut dead weight and bloated contracts, replace with football first, inexpensive, young mid tier free agents. Sign bunch of targeted undrafted free agents gems.

2014- Add to the talent base with a full compliment of draft picks. Resolve QB direction. Establish Oakland as a "team on the rise" and not a place where overprived once great free agents go do die.

2015- Contend
I think this year, you avoid any expensive FA's, no use wasting money on players who won't be around in 2015/2016, wait till 2015, then go all out for FA gems.
Unfortunately, finding a true franchise QB isn't always that easy, it requires a lot of luck and it may well take 2 or 3 years to get the right guy. It took Detroit 50 years, and Buffalo and Cleveland are still looking after a decade of searching.
I think you will need an awful lot of luck to contend by 2015 but at least, you are going about it the right way.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:57 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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I would be surprised if the Raiders are contending for anything except the first overall pick by 2015.
You mean like you all did last year? Have fun with your two rich left tackles and your "franchise" QB.

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Old 04-03-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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I think this year, you avoid any expensive FA's, no use wasting money on players who won't be around in 2015/2016, wait till 2015, then go all out for FA gems.
Unfortunately, finding a true franchise QB isn't always that easy, it requires a lot of luck and it may well take 2 or 3 years to get the right guy. It took Detroit 50 years, and Buffalo and Cleveland are still looking after a decade of searching.
I think you will need an awful lot of luck to contend by 2015 but at least, you are going about it the right way.
I'd say that Geno Smith is still in play despite getting Flynn. Also, if things go REALLY bad, I'd love a shot at Teddy Bridgewater.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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You mean like you all did last year? Have fun with your two rich left tackles and your "franchise" QB.
I wasn't attacking you or the Raiders in general, that team is just a mess, but nice, uh, comeback?

Enjoy your zero LTs and no QB. And no defense. And no RB. And no WRs. But good luck contending in two years.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't attacking you or the Raiders in general, that team is just a mess, but nice, uh, comeback?

Enjoy your zero LTs and no QB. And no defense. And no RB. And no WRs. But good luck contending in two years.
Sure you weren't. I think you meant our very good LT and tons of 2014 cap space, but that would require you to actually be familiar with our situation. Hey, how did you like you one night stand with Stanford Routt?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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wait, is a raiders fan actually talking trash? ... it must be deep in the offseason.
A guy on a football message board sporting a long haired cat as his avatar talking trash?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't attacking you or the Raiders in general, that team is just a mess, but nice, uh, comeback?

Enjoy your zero LTs and no QB. And no defense. And no RB. And no WRs. But good luck contending in two years.
Zero LT? Veldheer outplayed Alberts this year and is one of the top 10 LT's in the game and is only 25. But, other then him and Wiz Oakland doesn't have an O-Line.

Chiefs are a better team I believe, Oakland just managed to suck less them KC this past year.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Zero LT? Veldheer outplayed Alberts this year and is one of the top 10 LT's in the game and is only 25. But, other then him and Wiz Oakland doesn't have an O-Line.

Chiefs are a better team I believe, Oakland just managed to suck less them KC this past year.
You mean by beating their asses twice, one of which was a shut out?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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you have zero seasons above .500 in the last decade, and all but two of those were with 5 or less wins. i'm not sure there's a fanbase in the nfl with less right to trash talk right now. but yes, my avatar, totally relevant.
I'll talk all the trash I darn well please whether I pass you litmus test or not, pinky. I'm not sure there is a better, more loyal fan base than the Raiders in the NFL.

Oh, and by the way, the Chefs are division rivals who have the #1 pick in the draft for losing more than us. We were two games better than them by beating them twice.
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