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Old 12-04-2012, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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This is fun to debate but after 12 games their rookie seasons are almost over.
As 2nd year QBs the expectations are going to be much greater for both.

SKins fans in 2013 are going to expect RGIII to throw for 30+ TDs, still keep his INTs in the 10 range, and keep his franchise in perpetual contention for the division crown.

The Giants have a death grip on the NFCE and Skins fans are praying that Grif is the zombie slayer.

Also if Luck has the exact same stats in 2013 he has now, no one is going to say he had a great year because he's going to be put into the pool with the rest of the non-rookie NFL QBs.
Throwing for less than 56% completions, 17 INTs and 9 fumbles(one recovered) is not going to be considered a great season for Luck in 2013 on forward.
Indy fans expect the Colts to ALWAYS make the playoffs, and I believe Luck will begin to feel those expectations more intensely next season.

It's cool to win OROTY, but it's the same award won by VY and Sam Bradford.
It doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't give you a golden ticket to Canton.

Kyle is going to keep running his swiss army knife hybrid offense until NFL defenses learn how to contain the design run element, at which point Griffin should be much more comfortable with the traditional reads in Kyle's Houston playbook and the only running Robert does is on scrambles.

Until then I'm going to enjoy it and watch and see if the SKins can run the table and make the playoffs.

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Old 12-04-2012, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Malaka View Post
Look let's not be completely blind to what Luck has done either.

Luck made a team that was just completely atrocious to watch last year into a playoff team. That is extremely impressive. He is turning water into wine just as much as RGIII is. His team drafted extremely well, but all in all the Colts' roster is not notably different than it was last year.

My case for RG3 rests on the fact that OROY is not the "What Player Do I Want Moving Forward the Most Award?" its an award given to the player who has been the most productive with his team. That would be RG3. Who do I want going forward? Andrew Luck he has impressed me much more than Bobert. I wouldn't worry too much, Luck will end up having his own rewards I assure you.
See, Luck did not take last years colts and make them relevant. It's a completely different squad, staff, everything. Take nothing away from him he's been phoenominal but RG3 is taking a team worse than last year, injury riddled, cap strung, 6-10 team and willing them into thae playoff mix in a very tough NFC.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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Funbuncher might be onto something with valid points. I wouldn't trade Luck for anyone else as the sky is the limit for him. He's being asked to do more and thus has made some pretty cringe worthy plays with arrant passes and bad reads. He's also the reason the Colts are in the playoff hunt playing with five rookie positional players.

The above said, I'd vote for RGIII. He's single handily revived an entire franchise that had only routinely won the off-season super bowl and nothing else. After this year, the Giants/Eagles will no longer be a shoe in to win the division as they have for the past ten years. Granted the Eagles are going to start over at the end of the year. Washington hasn't won the division since '99 and only won two playoff games in the last twenty years. RGIII will change that. He's been more impressive to me than Luck who was groomed as the best prospect in the last ten years.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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The problem is that you are using stats as the basis for your 'facts' when the two QBs are in completely different situations.

Simpler offense and better running game means higher completion percentage and higher td-int ratio.

Luck also averages over 40 passes per game. For most QBs, including guys like Brady and Rodgers, their stats taken from the 30+ pass attempts in a game are significantly worse than during pass attempt 1 to 30. Luck and RG both follow this trend, except Griffin has hardly had to do it and Luck goes well past it every week.

I am not saying that you are wrong in RG being rookie OROTY (and I am not saying you are right), however, there is quite a lot of subjectivity in the voting and the fact is that Luck is operating an NFL offense at a higher level in terms of complexity, responsibility and performance than pretty much any rookie has before. That will carry a lot of weight with voters.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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See, Luck did not take last years colts and make them relevant. It's a completely different squad, staff, everything. Take nothing away from him he's been phoenominal but RG3 is taking a team worse than last year, injury riddled, cap strung, 6-10 team and willing them into thae playoff mix in a very tough NFC.
The fallacy in such logic is appalling. Do new things always equate to good things? My brand new Honda is better than some celebrity's 12-year-old Lamborghini? If that's the case please tell me why the Browns have been so bad for so many years until this year.

If simply by starting over things always go up, there will not be any divorce in this world.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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The fallacy in such logic is appalling. Do new things always equate to good things? My brand new Honda is better than some celebrity's 12-year-old Lamborghini? If that's the case please tell me why the Browns have been so bad for so many years until this year.

If simply by starting over things always go up, there will not be any divorce in this world.
No, but it doesn't always equate to bad things either... Meaning the asumption can't be made that he took the worst team in football to one of the best.. The fact is it's not the same team, not even remotely so no one has any clue what that team would look like without Luck... We have no idea what he would have been able to do with last years squad so the point is moot... See the logic now?
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Timbathia View Post
The problem is that you are using stats as the basis for your 'facts' when the two QBs are in completely different situations.

Simpler offense and better running game means higher completion percentage and higher td-int ratio.

Luck also averages over 40 passes per game. For most QBs, including guys like Brady and Rodgers, their stats taken from the 30+ pass attempts in a game are significantly worse than during pass attempt 1 to 30. Luck and RG both follow this trend, except Griffin has hardly had to do it and Luck goes well past it every week.

I am not saying that you are wrong in RG being rookie OROTY (and I am not saying you are right), however, there is quite a lot of subjectivity in the voting and the fact is that Luck is operating an NFL offense at a higher level in terms of complexity, responsibility and performance than pretty much any rookie has before. That will carry a lot of weight with voters.
That is not a FACT.... It's been said here and people cherry picked a couple of plays but no one knows anything about the nuances that these guys must accomplish in their respective offenses. None of you sit in a film room with these guys or have their playbook or have any idea what is asked of them on each play. You guys assume and last I checked assumptions are not FACTS. Statistics are facts.. Metrics are facts... What context you'd like to add to them are in FACT--SUBJECTIVE...

In this race objectivity reigns supreme. Since RG3 doesn't throw a million times a game you have to look at who has the better ratio's, percentages, averages, etc. You guys are grasping at contextual evidence because there's no stat you can represent to validate your OPINIONS.

I've said RG3 was better and presented a reasonable, fact based argument why. All the Luck camp can bring is opinionated conjecture because the truth is he's been very inconsistent, makes a lot of mistakes and turns the ball over too much. I will say that he's done a good job of digging himself and his team out of holes but there are a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with that W/L record and the Gaudy numbers. Once his regular season of playing terrible teams is over he'll be absolutely exposed in the playoffs if he continues to play inconsistent football and turn the ball over like he has IMO..
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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No, but it doesn't always equate to bad things either... Meaning the asumption can't be made that he took the worst team in football to one of the best.. The fact is it's not the same team, not even remotely so no one has any clue what that team would look like without Luck... We have no idea what he would have been able to do with last years squad so the point is moot... See the logic now?
Wow, how adamant in fallacy you are. So first of all you argued (or at least strongly insinuated) that changes automatically gear toward the good end, then as I pointed out the gaping loophole you instantly altered the stance, coming up with a theory in the ballpark of "Schrodinger's Cat". Yet you still continue to try working uncertainty to your advantage. I wanna ask, what convincing evidence do you have that can make the case that such uncertainty more likely has resulted in improvements for the Colts team instead of the lack thereof? Is it true that in your mind, absence of bad things is always the prove of the presence of good things? Just because the girl I have a crush on didn't say she dislike me automatically means she's enchanted by me? If that's the case I need to get my hands on Anne Hathaway's number ASAP, because you know what, she has never said she does not like me, right? On the other hand, how is it that, while you can have the "insight" to point out Luck's team is potentially better than last year's Indy, you don't remotely consider the possibility that Washington's personel, albeit pretty much the same as with last year's, has actually improved itself? Huh, you really got me thinking why the Lakers are so yucky so far this season....You must be the kind of guys who buy a brand new car as soon as the previous one starts having the tiniest problems.

This kind of "logic" can't even make it into a decent high school's debate hall. Thanks for your time.

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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That is not a FACT.... It's been said here and people cherry picked a couple of plays but no one knows anything about the nuances that these guys must accomplish in their respective offenses. None of you sit in a film room with these guys or have their playbook or have any idea what is asked of them on each play. You guys assume and last I checked assumptions are not FACTS. Statistics are facts.. Metrics are facts... What context you'd like to add to them are in FACT--SUBJECTIVE...

In this race objectivity reigns supreme. Since RG3 doesn't throw a million times a game you have to look at who has the better ratio's, percentages, averages, etc. You guys are grasping at contextual evidence because there's no stat you can represent to validate your OPINIONS.

I've said RG3 was better and presented a reasonable, fact based argument why. All the Luck camp can bring is opinionated conjecture because the truth is he's been very inconsistent, makes a lot of mistakes and turns the ball over too much. I will say that he's done a good job of digging himself and his team out of holes but there are a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with that W/L record and the Gaudy numbers. Once his regular season of playing terrible teams is over he'll be absolutely exposed in the playoffs if he continues to play inconsistent football and turn the ball over like he has IMO..
No, all you have done is presented an overly simplistic, stat based argument. You cant simply ignore all of the circumstance because it cant be distilled into a metric or stat. Your opinion is that all that matters in this argument is percentages and averages. That is not a fact, no matter how much you want it to be.

If you want to take all the conjecture and objectivity from the argument, and simplify it to the most basic metric for a QB (wins and losses), then Luck wins 8-6. But you dont want to do that, because there are other factors that come into getting to those numbers (but since these are not facts, I dont see why you would take them into account).

And before spouting off about Luck getting exposed in the playoffs, RG3 has only played two of the top 10 defenses (in terms of total yards allowed) in the Steelers and Bengals and didnt perform particularly well against either of them.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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The difference is two games.

Both are making a playoff push.

Luck has the better chance at the playoffs as far as I am concerned it doesn't mean much.

It's too much of a stretch to directly compare Dalton's situations to Luck's but it does provide evidence that wins are not the trump card in the OROY discussion stats are.
Two wins is a huge ******* difference when the season is only sixteen games total.

You're impressed by gaudy stats, i'm impressed by what i've seen on the field, and Andrew Luck has done things no other rookie ever has and has looked superior. That's my outstanding rookie of the year on offense.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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What has Luck done on the field that no rookie ever has??
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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This will be the last time I will look at this thread due to the blind homerism and awful football debating that is going on.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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how do you delete a post?

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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This will be the last time I will look at this thread due to the blind homerism and awful football debating that is going on.
That was one of your best posts. Plus rep!
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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This post just goes to show that you are clueless. First off chances are YOU nor anyone else here has watched every play of these guys NFL career. And no one knows whats they are asked to do in their respective offensive scheme so stop acting like you have some sort of inside source or apex knowledge of them. That said, stats are a good tool but I know you need to add context to get the whole story but do it right. Don't discount one player and try to build up the other using the same logical operations.). I mean if TY hilton runs a go route and fly's by the D for a long score don't discount RG3 for doing it to Robinson by making up some lame ass story like Luck went through his progressions and hit the open guy but RG3 just ran a play with one option and it was the easiest play in the world. You guys do it for everything. Everything RG3's Teammates do to help him Lucks team does too. The Moss Catch against the Eagles vs Ty coming back and getting a jump ball Luck heaved against the Jags (I believe). But some how that is a Neg for RG3 in some wierd parallel universe.

Then you want to bring up the Steeler and Cincy games. This really shows that you should just stop already. What part of 'our secondary is historically bad' don't you understand? The Bengals converted everything and RG3 almost brought us back to win it. i'm so sorry he couldn't put up 38 points against a top 10 D. 3 TD's and a bunch of great drives yet he played poorly in your view. And the Steelers game? Another game you must have looked at a gamelog or something. Our recievers dropped 11 passes. 11. Add that number and multiply it to his avg and project what his numbers would have been. No doubt we would have won that game if our guys could catch a cold that day. Imagine what his stats would be like if he had guys who could catch. The guy is so accurate it's scary. I really can't find a game he has played poorly. The recievers on the other hand have had some bad games.

I'm still waiting on what makes Luck the clear cut favorite here backed by some evidence.



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No, all you have done is presented an overly simplistic, stat based argument. You cant simply ignore all of the circumstance because it cant be distilled into a metric or stat. Your opinion is that all that matters in this argument is percentages and averages. That is not a fact, no matter how much you want it to be.

If you want to take all the conjecture and objectivity from the argument, and simplify it to the most basic metric for a QB (wins and losses), then Luck wins 8-6. But you dont want to do that, because there are other factors that come into getting to those numbers (but since these are not facts, I dont see why you would take them into account).

And before spouting off about Luck getting exposed in the playoffs, RG3 has only played two of the top 10 defenses (in terms of total yards allowed) in the Steelers and Bengals and didnt perform particularly well against either of them.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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What has Luck done on the field that no rookie ever has??
Rookie records for yards?
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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I think Andrew Luck is the better player, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's having the better season.

I could probably be swayed either way between Luck and Griffin.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Luck looked terrible for most of the game against Detroit. Could have easily had a few more interceptions in the game. I still give him credit for the two touchdowns at the end. He has it, he will be a great pro but in regards to this award I lean towards RGIII. I don't think win/loss should be factored in to this award at all. Its not an MVP award.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
so, jsagan, you learned absolutely nothing from your last week off, and decided to come right back and continue with the personal attacks? good call. that'll last long.
What personal attack? I stated that he was clueless? That's not a personal attack.. I didn't call him stupid ass or ****** or anything... I sure as heck didn't insult him like he did me in his posts acting like I'm some idiot by questioning my 'logic' but yeah he gets no warning... Other guys can tell folks to go jerk each other off or whatever but get nothing... Other people can do way worse than that but nothing. Just admit you have a person vendetta against me... It's so blatantly obvious to EVERYONE on this board that you let your emotions and personal grudges affect your decision making (which is never good for anyone in a position of power).

The guys obviously didn't know what he was talking about and stating so with a word like clueless is not a personal attack. And it's not like I'm going to be ultra respectful to the guy after he was a complete jerk in his posts. How about spreading some of that tough love to some evenly and consistently within the framework of the board rules instead of just whenever you feel like it?
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
What personal attack? I stated that he was clueless? That's not a personal attack.. I didn't call him stupid ass or ****** or anything... I sure as heck didn't insult him like he did me in his posts acting like I'm some idiot by questioning my 'logic' but yeah he gets no warning... Other guys can tell folks to go jerk each other off or whatever but get nothing... Other people can do way worse than that but nothing. Just admit you have a person vendetta against me... It's so blatantly obvious to EVERYONE on this board that you let your emotions and personal grudges affect your decision making (which is never good for anyone in a position of power).

The guys obviously didn't know what he was talking about and stating so with a word like clueless is not a personal attack. And it's not like I'm going to be ultra respectful to the guy after he was a complete jerk in his posts. How about spreading some of that tough love to some evenly and consistently within the framework of the board rules instead of just whenever you feel like it?
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I feel like it would better to just stay out but... calling someone clueless is a personal attack :P
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube and I'm still not seeing what you guys are. He's locking onto his primary's, waiting for plays to develop (not going through progressions), he's not calling audibles or adjusting too many protections at the LOS, he's hitting a lot of high percentage passes, and his receivers have made a TON of great plays. Luck looks amazing, and he's gonna be good, but everything that has been argued in his favor is being way overblown....
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube and I'm still not seeing what you guys are. He's locking onto his primary's, waiting for plays to develop (not going through progressions), he's not calling audibles or adjusting too many protections at the LOS, he's hitting a lot of high percentage passes, and his receivers have made a TON of great plays. Luck looks amazing, and he's gonna be good, but everything that has been argued in his favor is being way overblown....
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jsagan77 View Post
Not to get side tracked but I went and watched every Luck completion I could find on Youtube and I'm still not seeing what you guys are. He's locking onto his primary's, waiting for plays to develop (not going through progressions), he's not calling audibles or adjusting too many protections at the LOS, he's hitting a lot of high percentage passes, and his receivers have made a TON of great plays. Luck looks amazing, and he's gonna be good, but everything that has been argued in his favor is being way overblown....
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:17 AM    (permalink
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What personal attack? I stated that he was clueless? That's not a personal attack.. I didn't call him stupid ass or ****** or anything... I sure as heck didn't insult him like he did me in his posts acting like I'm some idiot by questioning my 'logic' but yeah he gets no warning... Other guys can tell folks to go jerk each other off or whatever but get nothing... Other people can do way worse than that but nothing. Just admit you have a person vendetta against me... It's so blatantly obvious to EVERYONE on this board that you let your emotions and personal grudges affect your decision making (which is never good for anyone in a position of power).

The guys obviously didn't know what he was talking about and stating so with a word like clueless is not a personal attack. And it's not like I'm going to be ultra respectful to the guy after he was a complete jerk in his posts. How about spreading some of that tough love to some evenly and consistently within the framework of the board rules instead of just whenever you feel like it?
Are you talking about me being a complete jerk? Find one thing I said that insulted you. I have said I dont agree with you relying on the stats argument and refusing to believe anything people say about Luck running a more sophisticated offense. I have also pointed out that you use non-stat measures when it suits you, such as in explaining why Luck has more wins.

Njx is always fair in spreading around the tough love. He will happily tell me off and probably ban me for saying you are a stupid ********** and even the people who agree with you that RG3 is OROTY think that you are a d*ckhead.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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RGIII and Luck say, " Chill the **** out!!"

That said,
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