Who is the current OROTY?

[Trogdor]

Originally Posted by Cudders

Well, how are we framing this discussion then? Is it who should win OROY or is it who will win OROY? The two aren’t interchangeable, seamless topics. If it’s the latter, I don’t mind the argument that RGIII will be awarded with the hardware because his numbers are more pleasing. The media tends to be more quantitative than qualitative. But, if it’s the former, I wouldn’t dismiss Luck on the basis of a single metric or two. If we’re talking overall bodies of work, and adding appropriate context to the debate, then Luck has a case of his own.

From a statistical perspective, his turnover numbers are a blemish. I get that. There are a lot of good-to-great quarterbacks that enter the league as “turnover machines” though. With regards to Luck’s season in particular, I can’t stress enough that he’s second in the NFL in terms of passing attempts. As a rookie. For comparison’s sake, RGIII is 25th and Russell Wilson is 26th. Right now, the Colts are asking Luck to do it all and he’s doing it. He hasn’t been given a crutch to lean on. No, he hasn’t been the most efficient quarterback in the NFL, but I’m not expecting him to establish himself as Manning-esque in his first season in Indianapolis either. That offense isn’t multiple and its design isn’t unique either. It’s a standard offense.

Going into Week 14, Luck was intercepted on 3.2% of his passing attempts. Similar quarterbacks? Cutler and Rivers at 3.5%. Brees at 3.3%. Romo and Dalton at 3.1%. Ryan at 2.8%. Luck is in their neighborhood as a rookie. Without Brandon Marshall. Without Brees’ seasoning, scheme, or weapons. Without Dez, Austin, or Witten. Without A.J. Green. Without White, Jones, or Gonzalez. Now, Luck does have a resurgent Pro Bowler on the outside. After that? Four rookies and a cast-off from St. Louis. Paired with a ground game that ranks in the bottom third of the league on a holistic and per attempt basis. That’s what he’s working with. His squad isn’t stocked with world-beaters.

As for overall team, I do think there are some caveats to consider with the Colts’ record. Indianapolis is a weak wild-card team in a weak AFC that’s projected to finish with a negative point differential. That said, it’s still a flawed roster. A flawed roster that’s still projected to make the postseason. It’s not like it’s clear that the Colts are the better team each game. That team has won a lot of close games against comparable competition. Luck has been the biggest factor in masking some of those holes and raising their compete level. A roster with a 2-14 foundation and a high rate of turnover has jelled behind a rookie quarterback’s poise and put themselves on the precipice of the postseason. That’s unprecedented. Luck’s (and, for that matter, RGIII’s) intangibles are unquantifiable.

Bump. QFT. +Rep. Sagan if you're going to post again please counter this post in a mature fashion.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Subjective analysis w/o taking in all the facts is not a good argument in any community. Except this one. It's obvious that there are 3 parties here. One that watches Luck extensively and bits and pieces of RG3, the coverse, and ones that see the
holistic picture. It's funny how all these good posts are on here about Luck but none for RG3. Standard I guess.

RG3 IS ******* UNREAL. he is. I love RG3. He's a ridiculous talent who I'm terrified to face 2 times a year. Both are unreal, but you're wanting everyone to take your standpoint and shove RG3's dick so far down our throats that it's playing take with my intestines. That's not going to happen. He's an incredible talent and having a superb year, but you're making him out to be a hall of famer and the greatest thing to step foot on the field ever. I get it. He's making the Redskins relevant after being the laughingstock of the NFC and perennial doormat of the league for the past 7 years, but you need to chill the **** out with this. Who are you trying to validate him to? What are you trying to prove?

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Subjective analysis w/o taking in all the facts is not a good argument in any community.

Except this one. It's obvious that there are 3 parties here.

Let's see where this goes.

One that watches Luck extensively and bits and pieces of RG3,

Ok...

the coverse,

That'd be you....

and ones that see the
holistic picture.

Like the ones who talk about the strengths of both players without acting like one's success means the others' failure?

It's funny how all these good posts are on here about Luck but none for RG3. Standard I guess.

No, most of the posts about RGIII are just yours.

[prock]

I got a good kick out of jsagan in this thread. Dude got baited like a ***** repeatedly.

[jsagan77]

All I'm doing is presenting the fact and refuting inaccurate assertions. If the facts make him out to look like a HOFer then great.

I'm not going to sit here and listen to armchair analysts try to minimize what he's done and maximize Lucks season like he's been better than RG3. I think Lucks amazing in his own right but he's playing like a rookie (a very good rookie). If he wasn't a rookie people would be questioning his decision making skills and his ball security. RG3 is not playing like a rookie at all. He's having possibly the best rookie season ever and is Rated up there with the best vets in the NFL for a reason and Luck is not for a reason. People are trying to minimize what he's done to build up Luck in so many posts that it's impossible to take them seriously.

Tell me this. Switch the production around. Would most people argue Luck (best prospect in 20 years) or RG3? If RG3 was turning the ball over at that rate he would be 'taking his lumps learning a pro style offense'. If Luck had RG3's stat line he'd basically be in Canton right now.

[jsagan77]

If you don't think I've mad any solid posts in this thread then that confirms your subjective nature.

I don't like you or 90% of the people on this board either but I give props to them if they make a good post.

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

Let's see where this goes.



Ok...



That'd be you....



Like the ones who talk about the strengths of both players without acting like one's success means the others' failure?



No, most of the posts about RGIII are just yours.

[Caulibflower]

The only "lumps" Luck is taking are the interceptions.

Also, what kind of PhD program are you in?

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

I don't like you or 90% of the people on this board either but I give props to them if they make a good post.

Also also - no, you don't.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by Caulibflower

The only "lumps" Luck is taking are the interceptions.

Also, what kind of PhD program are you in?

I'm done sharing my personal life with the board. If you want a real conversation PM me.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

All I'm doing is presenting the fact and refuting inaccurate assertions. If the facts make him out to look like a HOFer then great.

I'm not going to sit here and listen to armchair analysts try to minimize what he's done and maximize Lucks season like he's been better than RG3. I think Lucks amazing in his own right but he's playing like a rookie (a very good rookie). If he wasn't a rookie people would be questioning his decision making skills and his ball security. RG3 is not playing like a rookie at all. He's having possibly the best rookie season ever and is Rated up there with the best vets in the NFL for a reason and Luck is not for a reason. People are trying to minimize what he's done to build up Luck in so many posts that it's impossible to take them seriously.

Tell me this. Switch the production around. Would most people argue Luck (best prospect in 20 years) or RG3? If RG3 was turning the ball over at that rate he would be 'taking his lumps learning a pro style offense'. If Luck had RG3's stat line he'd basically be in Canton right now.

stats skew reality. Again, if you think Luck having the 2nd most amount of attempts and RG3 in the bottom 10 of starting QB's don't alter the turnover/interception stats, you need to learn a thing or 2 about everything.

they're 2 different QB's in 2 different systems with 2 different skillsets. Stop trying to compare them in a vacuum

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by Trogdor

Bump. QFT. +Rep. Sagan if you're going to post again please counter this post in a mature fashion.

It's a good post but 1. It's not one or two statistcal categories. It's a ******** of them and 2. This thread wasn't to discuss who will be the better player in the following years, it's firmly about this season, who has been the better offensive player. I simply believe people are grasping at straws and ignoring a lot of the variables and going out of their way to make a case for a guy that in any other year would probably win it. That's okay, but don't expect everyone to buy into Lucks case.

I'll admit I don't think it's close this year, right now, but anyother year Luck would be my choice too, just not this year.

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

stats skew reality. Again, if you think Luck having the 2nd most amount of attempts and RG3 in the bottom 10 of starting QB's don't alter the turnover/interception stats, you need to learn a thing or 2 about everything.

they're 2 different QB's in 2 different systems with 2 different skillsets. Stop trying to compare them in a vacuum

Sometimes they do, I completely agree but also Stats can skew reality when someone wants them to. In this case they paint a very accurate picture.

And if you don't think that RG3 being far more efficient than Luck and a better running threat doesn't lighten his passing attempt totals then you have more to learn than I do.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Sometimes they do, I completely agree but also Stats can skew reality when someone wants them to. In this case they paint a very accurate picture.

And if you don't think that RG3 being far more efficient than Luck and a better running threat doesn't lighten his passing attempt totals then you have more to learn than I do.

ok, let's play a game called "reading comprehension"

where did I EVER say that?

times up.

the answer is: I didn't. Stop trying to put words, and RG3's dick, in my mouth

[jsagan77]

Scotty, you don't have to say it, it's implied with your 2nd most attempts=more Turnovers point. Goodness

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Scotty, you don't have to say it, it's implied with your 2nd most attempts=more Turnovers point. Goodness

...
...
what.

It's obvious that having more pass attempts is going to lead to more turnovers. I NEVER said that made him more efficient than RG3. I'm pointing out stats. I'm not taking a ******* side.

the flip side is RG3's 18 TD's on less pass attempts.

BUT EVERYONE IS AGAINST RG3 HERPDERPDERP

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Sometimes they do, I completely agree but also Stats can skew reality when someone wants them to. In this case they paint a very accurate picture.

And if you don't think that RG3 being far more efficient than Luck and a better running threat doesn't lighten his passing attempt totals then you have more to learn than I do.

So stats can be manipulated to make a certain point by some people, but when you use stats it is done in a perfectly fair way? Let me also remind you that you are a Redskins homer and most of the people arguing with you aren't Colts homers or Redskins haters? Likely story Mr

[jsagan77]

Yeah I mosread your post my bad im driving.

[brat316]

blow this thread UP

[jsagan77]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

So stats can be manipulated to make a certain point by some people, but when you use stats it is done in a perfectly fair way? Let me also remind you that you are a Redskins homer and most of the people arguing with you aren't Colts homers or Redskins haters? Likely story Mr

No they are draft homers and Luck is the ultimate QB prospect.

And when did I ever say that I utilize them in a perfect way? I just refute some of the context people try to apply to them.

[jsagan77]

I think this post needs more love.

Originally Posted by xooberon

Just to get this thread back on track, here is how RGIII and Luck (and Wilson) are stacking up metric wise (this is obviously just raw data and has to be properly contextualized):

Drop % (% of pass att that are dropped): RGIII - 8.5, Luck - 7.3, Wilson - 5.5

Accuracy % (what completion% would look like when drops, spikes, throw aways etc aren't factored in): RGIII - 79.7, Wilson - 75.1, Luck - 67.1

YIA% (% of yards that come before the catch): Luck - 64.0, Wilson - 62.9, RGIII - 53.6

Deep Passing Acc % (completion % (including drops) of balls thrown for 20 yards or more): RGIII - 51.6, Wilson - 46.4, Luck - 41.8 [Important to note that RGIII attempts deep throws about half as much as Wilson and Luck]

Pressure % (% of dropbacks under pressure): Wilson - 39.0, Luck - 38.1, RGIII - 36.3

Completion % Under Pressure: RGIII - 59.2, Wilson - 44.2, Luck - 41.7

Accuracy % Under Pressure: RGIII - 78.2, Wilson - 63.9, Luck - 54.5

Source: PFF

[Jvig43]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

jsagan is the funniest person here.

or saddest.

if he's a doctoral candidate, I fear for our education system.

Despite people giving valid arguments against him, he ignores them, calls everyone else idiots, belittles everyone who disagrees with him and continues to babble on.

classic internet.

Pretty much this. Ive asked him to elaborate several times on his arguments about new players and coaches have made that big of an impact on the Colts turn around thats on par with Luck and he still has yet to amswer or even touch any of cudders usual awesome posts. And then blames all his grammar mistakes on his phone. Im on a phone too "tard"

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

RG3 IS ******* UNREAL. he is. I love RG3. He's a ridiculous talent who I'm terrified to face 2 times a year.

He's an incredible talent and having a superb year...... I get it.

He's making the Redskins relevant after being the laughingstock of the NFC and perennial doormat of the league for the past 7 years....

So insults to jsagan77 aside, which are easy to do, is your vote at this particular point in time going to Griffin, or to Luck, and why?

And begin...... 3......2.......1....

[SchizophrenicBatman]

Luck's season is pretty Manning-esque, actually.

It reminds me of the year Eli threw 20 picks in the regular season before the Giants caught fire and beat the undefeated Pats in the Super Bowl.

[dolphinfan2k5]

Originally Posted by jsagan77

Yeah I mosread your post my bad im driving.

No one is going to say anything about this??

[WCH]

Originally Posted by dolphinfan2k5

No one is going to say anything about this??

I always mosread posts when im driving.