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Old 12-02-2012, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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I still think if both the Seahawks and the Colts make the playoffs, it's going to come down to stats.

Do you count Luck's estimated 4500 yards passing/57-58% completions/25 TDs/20 INTs as a greater season than Wilson throwing for roughly 3200 yards passing/63-65% completions/27 TDs/12 INTs??

Luck is the big name and it's hard to ignore his likely setting the record for rookie passing yardage, but I still think the OROTY race is closer than some think.
Wilson of course is going to get votes.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
so wilson has two good weeks and he's roty? stop it. he's a distant third and he won't get a single vote in the actual award.
2? That't really all you're giving him?
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
that doesn't mean other weeks were necessarily bad.

regardless, rg3 and luck are the big names. people are deluded if they think, at this point, wilson's play has been good enough to get past that.
Well, I would give him 6 very good weeks, 5 straight.

I'm not saying I think he's ORotY at this point, but he is making his case. He definitely has the stats for it, and today he showed he can put the team on his back and win against a tough team on the road. I just think it's unfair to completely leave him out of the conversation.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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Andrew Luck.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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Sorry for being antagonistic and basically A Dick.

But now I'm convinced 3 Rookies deserve the award and 5 can make a case.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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I think Wilson may be fourth on the pecking order, but doug martin seems to be coming to earth recently.

I still say Griffin is ahead right now. He was the flashiest at first, Luck and Wilson came on a bit when he went down with the concussion. I don't see him slowing down enough to get caught. Plus a real nice win against the giants helps.

Unfair or not, you just have to look at the number one thing each QB did.

Luck had the game winning drive against GB.

RG3 had the long pass to garcon on his butt with hands in the air.

Wilson has the hail mary reffed so badly it single handedly caused the nfl to cave. His fault? No. But pretty much no writer outside of the pacific northwest gives him a lot of credit for that td or win.

I just don't see Wilson having a fighting chance, regardless of how fervent the hawks fans are.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:55 AM    (permalink
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The thingvthat I think puts RG3 on top is the fact that this isn't 'whose the best QB' it's who is the best offensive player. Luck has great yardage stats but has put himself in a hole often enough to play catchup. He reminds me more of Tony Romo this Year. Good stats, puts his team in a hole sometimes and is digging himself out. Just because you have good passing yardage doesn't mean you're the best ofdensive player. Rg3 just set the record for most rushing yards by a QB In a season, has a phoenominal passer rating, great TD to int ratio, top level completion percentage, top level YPA, and he's beaten two of their biggest rivals on the national stage with his back against the wall. Comparing his game to Lucks isn't fair cause they're offenses are completely different. The efficiency is what separates in my book and Russel Wilson deserves the award too. It's a shame all 3 can't split it but RG3 gets my vote.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:42 AM    (permalink
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Itís Andrew Luck.

There hasnít been a rookie quarterback thatís been asked to do what Luck has done in quite some time. Luck inherited the worst team in Indianapolis and wasnít given the chance to smooth the transition with a bridge scheme. He stepped into a pro scheme where the onus was on him to elevate the offense and heís done just that. Controlling tempo, dissecting pre-snap looks, making line calls, delivering the ball downfield, etc. Heís been remarkable. The fact that the Colts are 8-4 and battling for an AFC wild-card is a testament to his performance and poise. Because this roster, as constructed, isnít a wild-card team. There are still holes throughout. A quarterback extends his teamís margin for error though. With Luck, a lot of the woes that haunted the Colts last season have abated. And heís risen to the occasion when heís needed to. Engineering five game-winning drives at the three-quarter pole of his rookie season? You kidding me?

In most other seasons, RGIII would be a landslide winner. I just couldnít vote for him this season because of his competition. The stat arguments arenít enough to trump what I see. Sure, his completion percentage is higher and his TD:INT ratio is better. But heís given a disproportionate number of easier throws and clearer decisions than Luck. The pistol and option concepts have created space all over the field and widened windows for RGIII. The Skins have struggled in third-and-long situations this season. When defenses are allowed to adopt a conventional approach, and Washington must stick to NFL staples, RGIII struggles more. Now, thatís not to suggest he canít get better at it. Intermediate concepts just werenít stressed during his college career and heís adapting to it. With his awareness and work ethic, I donít doubt heíll improve in that area.

Russell Wilson has been rock-solid from what Iíve seen, but I donít believe he belongs with either of these two. He doesnít have the responsibilities of Luck or the statistics of RGIII or the case that heís doing the most with the least. So whereís he winning this award?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:56 AM    (permalink
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I sort of agree with the argument favoring Luck, however if RGIII had the number of INTs Luck has had, the SKins would maybe be a 3 win team.

If you had told me before the season the Skins would make the playoffs with RGIII, I would have totally believed that was possible.
But if you'd said Luck would lead the Colts to a 9+ win season and a playoff berth, I would've thought you were mental.

Overall I think the Colts and Redskins are similarly talented. THe SKins have a better run game, I think the Colts are better individually on defense.

There's an assumption that the read-option plays are a staple of the Skins offense and that's really not the case. I would guess 20-30% of their offense is predicated on read option concepts.

Grif was in the gun so much against the Giants because of Kyle's respect for their pass rushers and the inability of the oline to protect Grif on standard dropbacks.

I still am going to say their team's final record is ultimately going to be the deciding factor between Luck/Grif.

If the SKins run the table and win the NFCE, I think RG3 takes the award.

IMO NFL commentators are impressed with what Grif is doing in D.C., but they RESPECT what Andrew Luck is doing for the Colts.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I sort of agree with the argument favoring Luck, however if RGIII had the number of INTs Luck has had, the SKins would maybe be a 3 win team.

If you had told me before the season the Skins would make the playoffs with RGIII, I would have totally believed that was possible.
But if you'd said Luck would lead the Colts to a 9+ win season and a playoff berth, I would've thought you were mental.

Overall I think the Colts and Redskins are similarly talented. THe SKins have a better run game, I think the Colts are better individually on defense.

There's an assumption that the read-option plays are a staple of the Skins offense and that's really not the case. I would guess 20-30% of their offense is predicated on read option concepts.

Grif was in the gun so much against the Giants because of Kyle's respect for their pass rushers and the inability of the oline to protect Grif on standard dropbacks.

I still am going to say their team's final record is ultimately going to be the deciding factor between Luck/Grif.

If the SKins run the table and win the NFCE, I think RG3 takes the award.

IMO NFL commentators are impressed with what Grif is doing in D.C., but they RESPECT what Andrew Luck is doing for the Colts.
The stupidest thing one can say about sports is "if". As in science, you can't change one independent variable without affecting a whole bunch of dependent variable. Really? If? If only Andy Roddick had hung on a couple more points against Federer. If only Jo-Wilfred Tsonga is more mature. If only Mario Balotelli is less of a knucklehead. If only Tracy Mcgrady didn't have back spasm and isn't so mentally fragile.

Colts are individually talented on defense? What exactly has Bethea done exactly? Zbikowski? Heck I don't even think either Mathis or Freeney got pressure on Brady one single time the entire freaking game.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by xjxdarren View Post
The stupidest thing one can say about sports is "if". As in science, you can't change one independent variable without affecting a whole bunch of dependent variable. Really? If? If only Andy Roddick had hung on a couple more points against Federer. If only Jo-Wilfred Tsonga is more mature. If only Mario Balotelli is less of a knucklehead. If only Tracy Mcgrady didn't have back spasm and isn't so mentally fragile.

Colts are individually talented on defense? What exactly has Bethea done exactly? Zbikowski? Heck I don't even think either Mathis or Freeney got pressure on Brady one single time the entire freaking game.
Outside of the interior Dline, the Skins don't have one player on D who would start for the Colts. Maybe Kerrigan. Orakpo but he's been out all season.
We still don't have anyone with the ability of Mathis/Freeney. Our secondary is historically bad. We can't rush the passer. The SKins are on pace to give up the most points in an NFL season in the 16 game era.

BTW 'if' sometimes is the correct qualifier when dealing with hypotheticals.
Look at the Skins margins of victory this season and how close they've been in their defeats.
Despite RGIII throwing only 4 INTs, the SKins have a razor thin margin in both wins and losses.
Robert has had to play nearly error free football for the SKins to win even 6 games.
I don't need a crystal ball to know there's no way Washington could withstand 16 picks by its QB and have any hope of winning 5 total games this season.

That's why Shanny benched Grossman and drafted RGIII in the first place.

Either the competition the Colts have beaten is weak or the Colts actually have a decent defense. Luck doesn't have a 1500 yard RB in the backfield with him and it's not like he's thrown 30 TDs to offset all those turnovers.

Just accept the fact the Colts D has played well this season and is demonstrably better than the Skins.

It's that or the AFC is down this season.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:52 AM    (permalink
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Wilson has the hail mary reffed so badly it single handedly caused the nfl to cave. His fault? No. But pretty much no writer outside of the pacific northwest gives him a lot of credit for that td or win.

I just don't see Wilson having a fighting chance, regardless of how fervent the hawks fans are.
Or you could pick his 2 game winning drives against the Bears. Or his game winning drive against the pats....most talked about does not equal most impressive.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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Or you could pick his 2 game winning drives against the Bears. Or hos game winning drive against the pats....
I wouldn't really call that a drive. He completed a 46 yard pass that any QB in league history would have completed. He's had some impressive moments no doubt, but that final drive was nothing special. His TD passes to Braylon Edwards and Golden Tate were far more impressive plays.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Or you could pick his 2 game winning drives against the Bears. Or his game winning drive against the pats....most talked about does not equal most impressive.
Correct but in this case the more talked about drives are more impressive than Wilson's drives so I don't see your point.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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The SKins are on pace to give up the most points in an NFL season in the 16 game era.
That can't be right. There are 9 teams that have given up more points than the Skins this year.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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Outside of the interior Dline, the Skins don't have one player on D who would start for the Colts. Maybe Kerrigan. Orakpo but he's been out all season.
We still don't have anyone with the ability of Mathis/Freeney. Our secondary is historically bad. We can't rush the passer. The SKins are on pace to give up the most points in an NFL season in the 16 game era.

BTW 'if' sometimes is the correct qualifier when dealing with hypotheticals.
Look at the Skins margins of victory this season and how close they've been in their defeats.
Despite RGIII throwing only 4 INTs, the SKins have a razor thin margin in both wins and losses.
Robert has had to play nearly error free football for the SKins to win even 6 games.
I don't need a crystal ball to know there's no way Washington could withstand 16 picks by its QB and have any hope of winning 5 total games this season.

That's why Shanny benched Grossman and drafted RGIII in the first place.

Either the competition the Colts have beaten is weak or the Colts actually have a decent defense. Luck doesn't have a 1500 yard RB in the backfield with him and it's not like he's thrown 30 TDs to offset all those turnovers.

Just accept the fact the Colts D has played well this season and is demonstrably better than the Skins.

It's that or the AFC is down this season.
In terms of points allowed this season, the redskins are 23rd with 25.1 points allowed and the colts are 24th with 25.5 points allowed per game.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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I think it will be a tie between Luck and RG111, no other vote is accepable. Not a whole lot seperates these 2 future HOFers.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Outside of the interior Dline, the Skins don't have one player on D who would start for the Colts. Maybe Kerrigan. Orakpo but he's been out all season.
We still don't have anyone with the ability of Mathis/Freeney. Our secondary is historically bad. We can't rush the passer. The SKins are on pace to give up the most points in an NFL season in the 16 game era.

BTW 'if' sometimes is the correct qualifier when dealing with hypotheticals.
Look at the Skins margins of victory this season and how close they've been in their defeats.
Despite RGIII throwing only 4 INTs, the SKins have a razor thin margin in both wins and losses.
Robert has had to play nearly error free football for the SKins to win even 6 games.
I don't need a crystal ball to know there's no way Washington could withstand 16 picks by its QB and have any hope of winning 5 total games this season.

That's why Shanny benched Grossman and drafted RGIII in the first place.

Either the competition the Colts have beaten is weak or the Colts actually have a decent defense. Luck doesn't have a 1500 yard RB in the backfield with him and it's not like he's thrown 30 TDs to offset all those turnovers.

Just accept the fact the Colts D has played well this season and is demonstrably better than the Skins.

It's that or the AFC is down this season.
Your revisionist theory is utterly moronic. Even if you're really going down the road of trying to change the course of history, there's is simply no way you can just tag on an extra dozen picks onto griffin's stats without taking into the slightest account of what would most likely changed as well along with the increase in ints. He could've gotten another 16 TDs en route; or 12, or 8, or maybe only 2. No one would know ever, but that doesn't mean you can rule out the impacts of the butterfly effect.

You have to be either practically blind or illiterate in football to have the audacity yo say colts defense is "demonstrably better" skin's. I'm leaning toward to former because I've seen many other of your football-related posts on this forum. You think Jerrel Freeman is better than London Fletcher? Josh Gordy or Cassius Vaughn than DeAngelo Hall? Your comments are befuddlingly comical. Colts and Skins yield almost the exact same amount of points to opponents per game. Skins force more than twice the number of turnovers than the colts are able to grind out: 14 ints to 6 ints; 9 fumbles to 5. What Washington seems to do worse in terms of overall yardage they more than make up by creating turnovers and getting the ball back.

Btw did you even watch Stanford vs. UCLA this past weekend? Do you know the trees came out on top despite being outgained yardage-wise by more than 100? Because the turnover differential was 1:0 favoring stanford.

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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That can't be right. There are 9 teams that have given up more points than the Skins this year.
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In terms of points allowed this season, the redskins are 23rd with 25.1 points allowed and the colts are 24th with 25.5 points allowed per game.
Lol, if you arent sure about the points you are making you probably shouldnt even open your mouth on that given topic.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Correct but in this case the more talked about drives are more impressive than Wilson's drives so I don't see your point.
I'm saying he chose Wilson's most talked about play instead of his most impressive. I would have gone with hid 97 and 80 yard drives to beat the Bears. And in my opinion those are just as impressive as anything Luck and Griffin have done.

By the end of the year, Luck will hold the rookie passing yardage record. Griffin will hold the rushing yardage record, and Wilson could hold the passing TD record. All 3 of these guys would be running away with this award if they didn't have to compete against eachother.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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I'm saying he chose Wilson's most talked about play instead of his most impressive. I would have gone with hid 97 and 80 yard drives to beat the Bears. And in my opinion those are just as impressive as anything Luck and Griffin have done.

By the end of the year, Luck will hold the rookie passing yardage record. Griffin will hold the rushing yardage record, and Wilson could hold the passing TD record. All 3 of these guys would be running away with this award if they didn't have to compete against eachother.
Maybe thats true (although even if Luck or RG3 werent in the league Wilson would still be fighting for it over Martin and Morris, less so Morris at this point tho), but Luck had 54 attempts last weekend. Thats more than Wilson is going to have all season haha. Wilson is a distant third in this race and I wouldnt be shocked if he didnt get a single vote for it. People who do more than check box scores understand this well enough (not to imply thats all your doing here, just saying in general the stat argument is only going to go so far).
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Outside of the interior Dline, the Skins don't have one player on D who would start for the Colts. Maybe Kerrigan. Orakpo but he's been out all season.
We still don't have anyone with the ability of Mathis/Freeney. Our secondary is historically bad. We can't rush the passer. The SKins are on pace to give up the most points in an NFL season in the 16 game era.

BTW 'if' sometimes is the correct qualifier when dealing with hypotheticals.
Look at the Skins margins of victory this season and how close they've been in their defeats.
Despite RGIII throwing only 4 INTs, the SKins have a razor thin margin in both wins and losses.
Robert has had to play nearly error free football for the SKins to win even 6 games.
I don't need a crystal ball to know there's no way Washington could withstand 16 picks by its QB and have any hope of winning 5 total games this season.

That's why Shanny benched Grossman and drafted RGIII in the first place.

Either the competition the Colts have beaten is weak or the Colts actually have a decent defense. Luck doesn't have a 1500 yard RB in the backfield with him and it's not like he's thrown 30 TDs to offset all those turnovers.

Just accept the fact the Colts D has played well this season and is demonstrably better than the Skins.

It's that or the AFC is down this season.
I like how you end it with "or the AFC is down this season", as though there's even a case for it not being the weakest it's been in the new millennium.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Grandpa Weeden hands down.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, last night only confirmed my opinion on this. It's Luck.

RGIII isn't asked to make a lot of reads. He has a great run game (that I admit he is a big part of) but bear in mind that run game takes him out of a lot of 3rd and long situations. Look at his success rate on 3rd and 10 when he's in a traditional passing set. It's not very good. But when he's in his read option formations where he can go against basic defenses that are designed to stop the run, he is very successful. A lot of 1 read plays. Lots of slants, or PA roll outs, he isn't asked to make a lot of difficult reads. It's a very basic offense.

I came away more impressed with the OL and running back than RGIII. He's very good, and will be great, and I see him winning a SB some time in his career, but his development isn't close to Luck right now.

I will say this though: RGIII has the best PA pass I ever seen. Nobody sells it better. It's perfect.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Itís Andrew Luck.

There hasnít been a rookie quarterback thatís been asked to do what Luck has done in quite some time. Luck inherited the worst team in Indianapolis and wasnít given the chance to smooth the transition with a bridge scheme. He stepped into a pro scheme where the onus was on him to elevate the offense and heís done just that. Controlling tempo, dissecting pre-snap looks, making line calls, delivering the ball downfield, etc. Heís been remarkable. The fact that the Colts are 8-4 and battling for an AFC wild-card is a testament to his performance and poise. Because this roster, as constructed, isnít a wild-card team. There are still holes throughout. A quarterback extends his teamís margin for error though. With Luck, a lot of the woes that haunted the Colts last season have abated. And heís risen to the occasion when heís needed to. Engineering five game-winning drives at the three-quarter pole of his rookie season? You kidding me?

In most other seasons, RGIII would be a landslide winner. I just couldnít vote for him this season because of his competition. The stat arguments arenít enough to trump what I see. Sure, his completion percentage is higher and his TD:INT ratio is better. But heís given a disproportionate number of easier throws and clearer decisions than Luck. The pistol and option concepts have created space all over the field and widened windows for RGIII. The Skins have struggled in third-and-long situations this season. When defenses are allowed to adopt a conventional approach, and Washington must stick to NFL staples, RGIII struggles more. Now, thatís not to suggest he canít get better at it. Intermediate concepts just werenít stressed during his college career and heís adapting to it. With his awareness and work ethic, I donít doubt heíll improve in that area.

Russell Wilson has been rock-solid from what Iíve seen, but I donít believe he belongs with either of these two. He doesnít have the responsibilities of Luck or the statistics of RGIII or the case that heís doing the most with the least. So whereís he winning this award?
This pretty much sums it up perfectly.
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