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Old 12-04-2012, 02:55 PM    (permalink
Cardinal96
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My vote would be:

1. Andrew Luck
2. Robert Griffin III
3. Doug Martin
4. Russell Wilson
5. Alfred Morris

Andrew Luck gets the nod from me as he has done more for his team than the other players here. They have a bad offensive line, bad running game, an average receiving corps (a great WR plus mostly rookie pass catchers) and a bad defense. The fact that he has that team at 8-4 is a minor miracle. They have no business being a .500 team much less a team with a winning record.

Yes, Luck throws a lot of picks. But that is because he has to be aggressive for them to win. And there is no player as clutch as Luck.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
it helps when you do more than sort of glance at a running back who's 15 feet away from you and already setting up for his pass block.

sorry, as a former option quarterback, there's nothing that's annoyed me more than the piss poor play fakes in the nfl over the last 20 years. i get why they don't necessarily need to make a production out of the fake. but it still drives me nuts.
Oh I agree. The PA pass sell by many qbs is god awful. Some sell it very well though. I don't get why a qb wouldn't try to improve his craft in this area, it only can help him.

I think many times a qb doesn't sell it hard because in order to do so, you have to dedicate an extra 0.5 seconds to the sell, and in a league where you have 2.5 seconds at best from the snap to the end of the play to throw the ball, 0.5 seconds is a long time.

A good qb who makes the proper presnap read gets the ball out in 1 to 1.5 seconds. Some deeper drops like 5 and 7 step drops need 2.5 seconds. A max protect play can buy you 3 seconds. 3.5 at most.

A good PA sell I would say on a 7 step drop is a good 1 second sell. Maybe even 1.5 if you include stepping up and setting your feet.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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What I love about RGIII's sell is how he moves the ball in the empty basket with the RB while the RB is running.

Most good PA sells, you stick it in that empty box, duck your head, sell your loop very well and maintain the same angle and footwork and handoff every time whether it's a run or pass. That's a good sell.

RGIII does all of this, but to sell it even more, he'll extend the empty box forward a good foot to a foot and a half while the RB is running forward to really sell the empty box, then pulls it out and does his loop.

It's such a great sell. And because he's so fast and elusive, he can get away with spending that extra time selling it the way he does.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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The Colts might have been the worst team last season, but anybody could have seen them getting better. New GM, new coach, new OC, and a good all-around draft.

Look at who the Colts have beaten. Minny, GB, Cleveland, Tenn, Miami, Jax, Buffalo, and Detroit. GB is the only impressive win, but GB were dysfunctional at the time, and Luck didn't even play well for half the game. He almost lost the game for them yesterday.

Them fighting for a WC spot just shows how poorly the AFC has been.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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8-4 is 8-4.

You don't get 1.5 wins for beating a good team.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Its obviously going to be co-roys. Like manning McNair that one yr
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docta View Post
The Colts might have been the worst team last season, but anybody could have seen them getting better. New GM, new coach, new OC, and a good all-around draft.

Look at who the Colts have beaten. Minny, GB, Cleveland, Tenn, Miami, Jax, Buffalo, and Detroit. GB is the only impressive win, but GB were dysfunctional at the time, and Luck didn't even play well for half the game. He almost lost the game for them yesterday.

Them fighting for a WC spot just shows how poorly the AFC has been.
You're right. Novak Djokovic is supposed to win all four majors. Rory McIlroy is supposed to win all four majors. Barcelona is supposed to win all games by five goals; with Messi scoring a hat-trick each time. Miami Heat is supposed to win all 82 games.

If any person or team fails to accomplish what's prescribed above, he or it is no good.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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@bbd: The Parcells quote is so overrated. People just use it as a cop out. When the race is this close, it's appropriate to look at who've they've played. And 8-4 is the team's record. Luck didn't win them by himself.

@xjv: I don't even understand what your argument is...
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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It's not overrated. You win close games, you lose close games, you win blowouts, you lose blowouts. It all evens out at the end. You are what your record says you are.

Now for the sake of projections, absolutely you have to investigate it further. And in that case you can use it against a team. But let's not undermine what Luck is doing.

Yes he's played an easy schedule, but he also took over the worst team in the league.

Oh and btw his head coach has cancer. Yes the team rallied around Arians, but the Saints are a perfect example of how difficult it can be to play a season without your head coach.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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They were the worst team in the league last season, but that was last season. Look at how well the Niners improved in 1 year with just a new coaching staff.

I agree with you on playing without your HC, but the Colts situation is much different. All it takes is for the players to buy-in.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Look, Luck has 25 total turnovers this season. That's 17 INTs and 8 lost fumbles. I believe Luck leads the league in total turnovers. The Colts have a -16 turnover differential, which I think is 3rd worst in the league, just ahead of the Eagles and Chiefs.

THis is no 'what if' scenario. If RGIII had turned the ball over 25 times, there's no way the Skins would be 6-6. I doubt they would have 1 single win.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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The guy who first proposed "if" now says there is no "what if". Lol
, no wonder DC folks have no right to vote.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Using poker as an example, let's say you win 9 of the 10 hands each by 100k chips. But the last hand I won 900k. Who wins at the end?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Using poker as an example, let's say you win 9 of the 10 hands each by 100k chips. But the last hand I won 900k. Who wins at the end?
I can't wait for njx to get his hands on this one...

I'm gonna leave it at that. I'm sending njx the bat signal.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Look, Luck has 25 total turnovers this season. That's 17 INTs and 8 lost fumbles. I believe Luck leads the league in total turnovers. The Colts have a -16 turnover differential, which I think is 3rd worst in the league, just ahead of the Eagles and Chiefs.

THis is no 'what if' scenario. If RGIII had turned the ball over 25 times, there's no way the Skins would be 6-6. I doubt they would have 1 single win.
I think you're being extremely over dramatic. Luck has 21 total turnovers, and a significant chunk of them (11) have come in 3 blowout losses to the Bears, Patriots, and Jets. The Redskins would have some wins even if RG3 turned the ball over more.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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You can't play the hypothetical game. RGIII most likely wouldn't be as successful in Indy, and vice versa.

Both are studs. I'm all for corookie of the years if it came down to it. But if I had to choose 1, I'd go with Luck.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, last night only confirmed my opinion on this. It's Luck.

RGIII isn't asked to make a lot of reads. He has a great run game (that I admit he is a big part of) but bear in mind that run game takes him out of a lot of 3rd and long situations. Look at his success rate on 3rd and 10 when he's in a traditional passing set. It's not very good. But when he's in his read option formations where he can go against basic defenses that are designed to stop the run, he is very successful. A lot of 1 read plays. Lots of slants, or PA roll outs, he isn't asked to make a lot of difficult reads. It's a very basic offense.

I came away more impressed with the OL and running back than RGIII. He's very good, and will be great, and I see him winning a SB some time in his career, but his development isn't close to Luck right now.

I will say this though: RGIII has the best PA pass I ever seen. Nobody sells it better. It's perfect.

How many NFL QBs are successful converting 3rd and long on a regular basis??
THat's not just an issue for Robert.
BTW the fact the SKins finds themselves in 3rd and long situations with regularity has been a major complaint against this team for much of the season.

Just saying what you saw against the Giants isn't how Kyle or Mike gameplan for every opponent.

Kyle ran RGIII almost exclusively out of the pistol against NY because our OTs can't pass block anyone decent.

It would be suicidal for Kyle to go into that game thinking, 'let's drop Grif back from center on a 5 step and hope Osi or JPP don't rip his head off.'

The SKins offense is so eclectic I don't know how a casual fan can notice any trends from one or two games against a division rival.

The offense is literally different for every opponent the SKins play.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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I think you're being extremely over dramatic. Luck has 21 total turnovers, and a significant chunk of them (11) have come in 3 blowout losses to the Bears, Patriots, and Jets. The Redskins would have some wins even if RG3 turned the ball over more.
Luck has 8 fumbles lost and 17 INTs.
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...L/LuckAn00.htm
17 + 8 = 25.

You can believe the SKins would still be a 6 win team if RGIII had 25 total turnovers after 12 games.

I don't.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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How many NFL QBs are successful converting 3rd and long on a regular basis??
THat's not just an issue for Robert.
BTW the fact the SKins finds themselves in 3rd and long situations with regularity has been a major complaint against this team for much of the season.

Just saying what you saw against the Giants isn't how Kyle or Mike gameplan for every opponent.

Kyle ran RGIII almost exclusively out of the pistol against NY because our OTs can't pass block anyone decent.

It would be suicidal for Kyle to go into that game thinking, 'let's drop Grif back from center on a 5 step and hope Osi or JPP don't rip his head off.'

The SKins offense is so eclectic I don't know how a casual fan can notice any trends from one or two games against a division rival.

The offense is literally different for every opponent the SKins play.
I've seen 8 Redskins games this year. 2 vs the Giants, the Saints game, the Cowboys game, the Vikings game, the Eagles game, Steelers game, and Falcons game.

So I'm not just basing this off of 1 or 2 games. My fiance is a Redskins fan. I watch the Skins a lot.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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i just... can't. i mean, for starters, the sentence structure itself precludes both players ending with 900k, since one of the players only won 100k per hand, then lost one hand. and one player lost 9 hands before *only* winning 900k. so given that one player is betting enough to win 100k per hand, you can bet he didn't end close to 900k total, including the loss. and the player who won 900k? he probably ended up WAY down, if he was betting that much on the other 9 hands. or he was playing against morons, who didn't notice him suddenly go from betting $1 per hand, to several hundred thousand dollars every hand. in which case he's already not having a very good night, since he probably could've won substantially more, earlier.
Not to mention that football isn't poker...

Week 1 and week 16 both count the same way, so using that analogy to begin with makes no sense at all.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention that football isn't poker...

Week 1 and week 16 both count the same way, so using that analogy to begin with makes no sense at all.
My point is comparing ints and fumbles to overall offense merit, not a week one game to a week 17 game.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Even if your opponent has been betting meager amount along the way but suddenly jumps, will you fold if you are holding pocket kings?
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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My point is comparing ints and fumbles to overall offense merit, not a week one game to a week 17 game.
It still makes no sense. So 10 ints is equal to 1 big fumble? I don't get what youre trying to say.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Even if your opponent has been betting meager amount along the way but suddenly jumps, will you fold if you are holding pocket kings?
Huh? (10 char)
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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It still makes no sense. So 10 ints is equal to 1 big fumble? I don't get what youre trying to say.
Committing turnovers, be it int or fumble, doesn't erase offense contributions.

Luck's offense philosophy as prescribed by Arians dictates he often has to play a hand out even when holding 7&8 of spade, whereas Griffin simply doesn't unless he gets dealt QJ to say the least

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