MVP as we head out of November - Page 18

49ers1984 · 12-26-2012, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forenci

Eh, I'm a believer that 90% of interceptions are the QB's fault. Tipped balls usually happen because the ball wasn't where it should be.

I was just making the point to the guy saying Brady is clearly over Manning. You can't have it both ways though. You can't be the most valuable player, who arguably is carrying your team, without also being accountable for the poor games and bad play. Brady played a big part in making it a close game.

Not saying he isn't a solid MVP choice, but Peterson and Manning are far ahead of him in my opinion.

So why have a double standard and not hold Manning accountable like at the Bengals and Chiefs and Falcons where he had bad games?

jth1331 · 12-26-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49ers1984

So why have a double standard and not hold Manning accountable like at the Bengals and Chiefs and Falcons where he had bad games?

Bengals, he still managed to complete 77% of his passes, throw for 291 yards with a 8.31ypa, 3 TD's and yes, he had 2 picks, with a QB rating of over 100 and if it floats your boat, a QBR of 94.7.
Chiefs, I find it funny a bad game for Manning is a pretty damn good game. nearly 60% of his passes completed, 285 yards, 7.7ypa, 2 TD's and 1 INT. 90 QB rating, QBR of 71.3.
Falcons game is really the only game he has performed extremely poor in.

The only thing Brady really has on Manning is less interceptions. Everything else is the same, or in Manning's favor. Given the turnaround Manning has given the Broncos, I don't see how he isn't the MVP to be honest.

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jth1331

The only thing Brady really has on Manning is less interceptions. Everything else is the same, or in Manning's favor. Given the turnaround Manning has given the Broncos, I don't see how he isn't the MVP to be honest.

you know, and the fact that for the vast majority of the season he's been the entire patriots team. denver may not be fighting for a bye week without manning, but anyone who thinks they weren't still the best team in the afc west is kidding themselves.

peyton shouldn't get an mvp vote this year.

jth1331 · 12-26-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

you know, and the fact that for the vast majority of the season he's been the entire patriots team. denver may not be fighting for a bye week without manning, but anyone who thinks they weren't still the best team in the afc west is kidding themselves.

peyton shouldn't get an mvp vote this year.

So you're saying the Broncos would still be winning the AFC West with Tebow back there, or Osweiller?

bigbluedefense · 12-26-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jth1331

So you're saying the Broncos would still be winning the AFC West with Tebow back there, or Osweiller?

He's saying that the rest of the division is SO bad that the Broncos could have had Blaine Gabbert at qb and they'd still win the division.

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

He's saying that the rest of the division is SO bad that the Broncos could have had Blaine Gabbert at qb and they'd still win the division.

i actually just had to think... "would we be worse with osweiler or tebow starting at qb? hmm..."

we won the division last year (and a playoff game) with a combination of kyle orton and tim tebow at qb, joe mays actually starting games, and andre goodman on the field. i'm pretty sure this year's team is a little bit better.

Halsey · 12-26-2012, 08:54 AM

"hypothetical the Broncos would have done this and that without Peyton blah blah..."

Yeah, well in reality, with Peyton, they're one of the best teams in the league, while their offense is clearly better, averaging 10 more points per game than last year. As usual, players around Peyton, such as D. Thomas, Decker and Moreno are playing well.

Has anyone else noticed that RBs always seem to play better with Peyton than without him? Edgerrin James had his best years with Peyton. Joseph Addai, Domenick Rhodes and now Moreno all support that argument too.

bigbluedefense · 12-26-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

i actually just had to think... "would we be worse with osweiler or tebow starting at qb? hmm..."

we won the division last year (and a playoff game) with a combination of kyle orton and tim tebow at qb, joe mays actually starting games, and andre goodman on the field. i'm pretty sure this year's team is a little bit better.

And the division is also a little worse. San Diego was much worse than I expected, I thought SD would put up a fight but I'm starting to question how good Phillip Rivers really is bc he's had 2 horrific seasons in a row now, and KC is a joke as is Oakland.

This division could have been won at 8-8 realistically.

bigbluedefense · 12-26-2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

"hypothetical the Broncos would have done this and that without Peyton blah blah..."

Yeah, well in reality, with Peyton, they're one of the best teams in the league, while their offense is clearly better, averaging 10 more points per game than last year. As usual, players around Peyton, such as D. Thomas, Decker and Moreno are playing well.

Has anyone else noticed that RBs always seem to play better with Peyton than without him? Edgerrin James had his best years with Peyton. Joseph Addai, Domenick Rhodes and now Moreno all support that argument too.

It's the offense. That no huddle spread offense leaves 6 in the box. It's a lot easier to run for these guys with those smaller fronts, and Peyton is not afraid to audible to a run if he sees a look he likes.

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

And the division is also a little worse. San Diego was much worse than I expected, I thought SD would put up a fight but I'm starting to question how good Phillip Rivers really is bc he's had 2 horrific seasons in a row now, and KC is a joke as is Oakland.

This division could have been won at 8-8 realistically.

i'm pretty sure it's bad enough we could've been the second team with a losing record to make the playoffs. it's too bad, i remember when there were actual rivalries and the games were entertaining to watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

"hypothetical the Broncos would have done this and that without Peyton blah blah..."

Yeah, well in reality, with Peyton, they're one of the best teams in the league, while their offense is clearly better, averaging 10 more points per game than last year. As usual, players around Peyton, such as D. Thomas, Decker and Moreno are playing well.

??? it's the MVP award. what you think the team would like like without the player is absolutely relevant, complaints about how it should be the most outstanding player award instead, notwithstanding.

Matthew Jones · 12-26-2012, 09:35 AM

I'm not sure Manning really had a signature game either. Was it the 204-yard, one-touchdown victory over Baltimore? The win over the Bengals? Beating Pittsburgh, a non-playoff team, in the first game of the season? The Broncos lost to the three best teams they played (Atlanta, Houston, New England) and have two wins against winning teams (Bengals, Steelers.) They played Oakland twice, San Diego twice, Kansas City twice, the Panthers, Saints, Buccaneers, and Browns. That's a cakewalk. I won't argue with the claim that Peyton is one of the best players in the league, I just don't think he added nearly as much to his team's win total as Adrian Peterson.

cmarq83 · 12-26-2012, 09:37 AM

There really isn't any meaningful distinction to make between the 3 QB's. Their stats are essentially identicial, and there records are all close enough to the point where nothing meaningful can be deduced from the 1 game difference.

I don't really agree with Njx's point on Brady being the entire team. I think the Patriots are a balanced enough team that they could have snuck into the playoffs without him this year in a weak AFC.

If I couldn't pick Peterson I'd probably pick Aaron Rodgers because GB has absolutely no offensive identity besides him slinging the football around like a madman. While I think Brady has performed the best out of the 3 this year.

Halsey · 12-26-2012, 09:46 AM

People keep pointing out that the Broncos three losses came to the best teams they've played. Would it be better if they lost to the three worst teams they played?

cmarq83 · 12-26-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halsey

People keep pointing out that the Broncos three losses came to the best teams they've played. Would it be better if they lost to the three worst teams they played?

No, but at some point you need to step up and beat the best. If people want to use the fact that they have the best record of the 3 as a reason why he should win the MVP award, then you need to take the schedule into account. Would the Broncos be heading into the bye had they had played the Patriots or the Packers schedule?

broncosfan · 12-26-2012, 02:39 PM

The Denver Broncos are a different team from the one that faced the Texans, Falcons and Patriots, hell even the Chargers. After the bye they stopped turning the ball over to the other team like crazy on the 1st half. Manning is in sync with his receivers and the defense is playing extremely good, specially on the 2nd half.

I'm looking forward to the playoff game against the Patriots or Texans.

gpngc · 12-26-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

you know, and the fact that for the vast majority of the season he's been the entire patriots team. denver may not be fighting for a bye week without manning, but anyone who thinks they weren't still the best team in the afc west is kidding themselves.

peyton shouldn't get an mvp vote this year.

It's clear you think Brady deserves it but I'm curious as to why you think Brady isn't actually considered a contender by those who matter in the voting process? What are they missing that you get?

His odds sit at +750 right now and there's absolutely nothing he can do to win the award in Week 17 so he's 99% out of the race.

cmarq83 · 12-26-2012, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpngc

It's clear you think Brady deserves it but I'm curious as to why you think Brady isn't actually considered a contender by those who matter in the voting process? What are they missing that you get?

His odds sit at +750 right now and there's absolutely nothing he can do to win the award in Week 17 so he's 99% out of the race.

It's actually pretty simple. QB rating is what essentially determines the award. Brady's is significantly lower than Manning's and Rodgers because he has more attempts and fewer TD's. Couple that with the fact that his completion % is a few points lower, and voila you get a lower QB rating.

It's not entirely indicative of how his season is going because the Patriots have rushed for a ton of TD's and are easily the highest scoring offense, but when comparing QB's with similar records in a close race like this people are going to make their decision based on the stat lines/ records they see.

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpngc

It's clear you think Brady deserves it but I'm curious as to why you think Brady isn't actually considered a contender by those who matter in the voting process? What are they missing that you get?

His odds sit at +750 right now and there's absolutely nothing he can do to win the award in Week 17 so he's 99% out of the race.

he doesn't have the story that say, peterson has. being the, imo, sole reason the pats are in the playoffs doesn't seem to be enough for voters. that said, i generally think anyone voting for football awards is probably an idiot (see: peter king), so their reasoning might be even more specious.

gpngc · 12-26-2012, 04:22 PM

If it was that simple they'd all vote for Rodgers considering he's at 106.2 (best in the NFL) compared to Manning's 103.7 and Brady's 98.3.

And Rodgers has the most TDs.

gpngc · 12-26-2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

he doesn't have the story that say, peterson has. being the, imo, sole reason the pats are in the playoffs doesn't seem to be enough for voters. that said, i generally think anyone voting for football awards is probably an idiot (see: peter king), so their reasoning might be even more specious.

But why Manning over Brady and by such a wide margin? What are they missing?

cmarq83 · 12-26-2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpngc

If it was that simple they'd all vote for Rodgers considering he's at 106.2 (best in the NFL) compared to Manning's 103.7 and Brady's 98.3.

And Rodgers has the most TDs.

Well that is my explanation as to why Brady won't win it. Having a QB rating below 100 is kind of a stigma in this day and age. Manning will always have some kind of extra bump over more qualified candidates if he's playing well (2008 & 2009 MVP's as examples) the fact that he's closer this year in terms of statistics than he's been in year's past just makes it a slam dunk.

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpngc

But why Manning over Brady and by such a wide margin? What are they missing?

in peter king's case, probably the games themselves.

49ers1984 · 12-26-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jth1331

Bengals, he still managed to complete 77% of his passes, throw for 291 yards with a 8.31ypa, 3 TD's and yes, he had 2 picks, with a QB rating of over 100 and if it floats your boat, a QBR of 94.7.
Chiefs, I find it funny a bad game for Manning is a pretty damn good game. nearly 60% of his passes completed, 285 yards, 7.7ypa, 2 TD's and 1 INT. 90 QB rating, QBR of 71.3.
Falcons game is really the only game he has performed extremely poor in.

The only thing Brady really has on Manning is less interceptions. Everything else is the same, or in Manning's favor. Given the turnaround Manning has given the Broncos, I don't see how he isn't the MVP to be honest.

Brady has more passing yards total, more pass yards a game, more long passes, better pass interception % and won the heads up match up. Brady has also a far worse defense. Manning is playing with another MVP candidate Von Miller what other MVP candidate is Brady playing with?

gpngc · 12-26-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njx9

in peter king's case, probably the games themselves.

Seriously, why do the majority of the other 49 voters 100% disagree with the belief that Manning shouldn't get a single vote?

njx9 · 12-26-2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpngc

Seriously, why do the majority of the other 49 voters 100% disagree with the belief that Manning shouldn't get a single vote?

i have no idea why you're pushing this. i have no ******* clue what's going through voters minds and apparently, the only answer that will satisfy you is "brady wasn't good enough." i'm not interested in playing this game.