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Old 08-25-2013, 02:59 PM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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People's bodies are different. Some guys can take hits and not have it impact their joints, ligaments and soft tissue. Others can't. The human body wasn't designed to play the game of football, thus all the equipment and the padding.

The 'proof' that durability isn't something you can train for in the offseason is in watching the game being played. Most players who get injured trained their asses off in the spring and summer and it still didn't prevent injuries in training camp or the regular season.

Also for RBs at least, there's a high statistical correlation between 'greatness' and rushing for 13K+ in a career.

That 13K threshold is going to become more significant in the future as teams move away from offenses centered around running the football. RBs are considered complimentary components to offenses nowadays. They are no longer the bellcow of successful winning football teams.

Compared to other HOF RBs, Bettis didn't played an inordinately long time, and he was still a productive goal line back until he retired.

I don't see how you can hold Bettis' number of carries against him. The one season he had 375 carries, he still averaged 4.4 yards a pop.

You may not think he deserves to get in, but Bettis is going to be in Canton eventually.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49ers1984 View Post
Maybe Jimmy Johnson but Holmgren and Shannahan success were to much of a by product of having HOF QB's.
Right. Unlike Bill Walsh.
Or Bill Belichick.

Because we all know John Elway won a ton of SBs before Shanahan arrived.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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I think something has to be said about durability for players. It's the reason why we won't allow players who have the "shooting star" effect in the Hall of Fame like Terrell Davis or Sterling Sharpe. Now every situation is going to be different. Curtis Martin was a good runningback that put up respectable production every single season until his final year. He doesn't have any signature moments in big games, and he was arguably the best back of any given year maybe once or twice, but every year for him was essentially a Pro Bowl year. At the same time you have a guy like maybe Vinny Testaverde who played for a long, long, long time and maybe had two or three respectable seasons. So it's all about context.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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You cannot be a real person... Sure Williams deserves to get in but don't discount Green, Woodson, and Prime to do it. All four players were ridiculously top notch at their position.

Green was simply the fastest guy I've ever seen play football... It was like he was flying. Prime, you just didn't throw it his way or it was six the other way. Run it his way, sure, but still he's the PRIME example of what we dream a DB is supposed to do and that's shutdown his half of the field.

The fact I even had to make a post about the first two, the third should be self explanatory.. Woodson was simply an amazing entity wherever they lined him up at and to do it at two positions is simply ridiculous.

I agree with you on Williams though. I think he's one of the best to ever play the game and deserves to be in but there's only so much room.

AASN: Ray Guy should be in the HOF IMHO and guys like Hester, Vinatieri, etc should get props for what they've accomplished since ST's is 1/3 of the game after all.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Right. Unlike Bill Walsh.
Or Bill Belichick.

Because we all know John Elway won a ton of SBs before Shanahan arrived.

Those are not good examples Bill Walsh did not get a chance to coach without Montana and Belichick won 11 games without Brady. Since 1998 when Elway was QB Shanahan has only had 5 seasons of 10+ wins that is not a Hall of Fame coach.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
People's bodies are different. Some guys can take hits and not have it impact their joints, ligaments and soft tissue. Others can't. The human body wasn't designed to play the game of football, thus all the equipment and the padding.

The 'proof' that durability isn't something you can train for in the offseason is in watching the game being played. Most players who get injured trained their asses off in the spring and summer and it still didn't prevent injuries in training camp or the regular season.

Also for RBs at least, there's a high statistical correlation between 'greatness' and rushing for 13K+ in a career.

That 13K threshold is going to become more significant in the future as teams move away from offenses centered around running the football. RBs are considered complimentary components to offenses nowadays. They are no longer the bellcow of successful winning football teams.

Compared to other HOF RBs, Bettis didn't played an inordinately long time, and he was still a productive goal line back until he retired.

I don't see how you can hold Bettis' number of carries against him. The one season he had 375 carries, he still averaged 4.4 yards a pop.

You may not think he deserves to get in, but Bettis is going to be in Canton eventually.
You just proved my point you can not not prevent injuries it is just luck. Bettis played longer then Terrell Davis but you can not tell me because he played longer he was better. Nine seasons Bettis did not even average 4 yards a carry.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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Those are not good examples Bill Walsh did not get a chance to coach without Montana and Belichick won 11 games without Brady. Since 1998 when Elway was QB Shanahan has only had 5 seasons of 10+ wins that is not a Hall of Fame coach.
Without Tom Brady starting, Belichick is 50-57 I believe it is.
Spanning 7 seasons, and 5 games of the 2001 season.
He made 1 playoff trip in those seasons, and went 1-1 in the playoffs.
2 seasons he had 10+ wins.


Shanahan is a great offensive coach, but had too much power in Denver and suffered making poor draft, free agency and defensive coach decisions. Honestly, he was a great coach for the Broncos and helped get them Super Bowls, but I don't think he's a HOF coach.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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You just proved my point you can not not prevent injuries it is just luck. Bettis played longer then Terrell Davis but you can not tell me because he played longer he was better. Nine seasons Bettis did not even average 4 yards a carry.
Being born 6'2, 220# with 4.3 speed is 'luck' too. All pro athletes on some level have won the genetic lottery. You have to be physically gifted to make the HOF, or even play in the NFL.

I'm not going to penalize a player because he was durable, or had great vision, or never went down after the first hit, or had naturally great hand-eye coordination, or weighed 255#.

Bettis being a great player wasn't 'luck'. Yes he had certain physical advantages that can't be coached, but what great player doesn't??

Terrell Davis may be a better RB than Bettis, but what is the main criticism about TD becoming a HOFer?? He didn't play long enough. Which means how many years a player is in the league, and indirectly how productive and durable he was, matters.

It sucks that TD had his career cut short by injuries( I still think down the road when Terrell Davis is an old man, he has a shot at Canton), but that's how the game is. The NFL is a survivor's league. The last man standing is the one who usually gets all the accolades.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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Without Tom Brady starting, Belichick is 50-57 I believe it is.
Spanning 7 seasons, and 5 games of the 2001 season.
He made 1 playoff trip in those seasons, and went 1-1 in the playoffs.
2 seasons he had 10+ wins.


Shanahan is a great offensive coach, but had too much power in Denver and suffered making poor draft, free agency and defensive coach decisions. Honestly, he was a great coach for the Broncos and helped get them Super Bowls, but I don't think he's a HOF coach.
44 of those loses were with the Browns not a lot there to work with.Of course having Tom Brady helped but Belichick helped Brady with designing good defensive schemes.

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Old 09-11-2013, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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The 2014 modern era preliminary list has been released.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...-era-nominees/

Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison and Tony Dungy are 4 of the 16 first-time eligible names on the ballot.

There are still quite a few names who are at least worthy of a nomination and for one reason or another have not been listed, while others on the list leave you scratching your head as to how they even got this far. Dave Meggett and Stephen Davis at RB, but no Corey Dillon, is just stupid.

I'm not saying these guys should be HOFers but they at least deserve the recognition of a preliminary list nomination. Some of them might even make good Seniors candidates further down the road.

RB: Corey Dillon
11,241 yds, seven 1,000 yd seasons, 89 career TDs

WR: Irving Fryar
851-12,785 with 84 career TDs which were great numbers for his era.

OL: Richmond Webb
Webb is a 4 times (2 1st team) All Pro/7 Pro Bowls/90s All Decade Team.

TE: Jay Novacek
5 Pro Bowls and 2-time All-Pro with 3 Super Bowl rings.

TE: Keith Jackson
5 Pro Bowls and 4-time All Pro (3 1st team).

DL: Leslie O誰eal, Neil Smith, Keith Millard, Simeon Rice, Clyde Simmons.
Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s for the Vikings. O誰eal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ career sacks. O誰eal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+ sacks. Smith and Rice also won Super Bowl rings which is an extra feather in their cap.

LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s, Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none, Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s

DB: Deron Cherry, Frank Minnifield and Carnell Lake.
Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s. All 3 deserve to be nominated.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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Walter Jones, Marvin Harrison, and Derrick Brooks should all be 1st ballot guys. All were elite level players for a long time and were arguably the player at their position at some point in their career. Absolute locks.

Not sure if I'd put Dungy in the HoF. Very good coach and an even better person but he doesn't scream HoF like others. For a coach to make it should be obvious and I don't feel it with him.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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Derrick Brooks is my favorite non-titan ever and one of the few elite linebackers that was actually a really good dude. I loved watching him play.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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For a coach to be 1st ballot HOFer he has to be on the same level as Lombardi, Shula, Noll and Landry. Even Bill Walsh had to wait three years. Dungy will get elected eventually although I think he'll have to wait longer than some might expect.

I predict the voters will go with Andre Reed, who came very, very close this year, over Harrison. The only WRs in the past 30 or so years to be 1st ballot were Jerry Rice and Steve Largent, both of whom finished their careers as the all-time leaders in receptions, receiving yards and TD catches.

Brooks and Jones are my 1st ballot choices for 2014. Strahan, Reed and Will Shields are the rest of my predicted modern era selections.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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I don't think TD is a HOFer, I think the system he's played in has verified that.

He was a very good player, but he played well in 4 seasons, and we've seen other players in that system excel as well.

HOF is supposed to be the best of the best, I don't think TD is near that.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Tony Dungy deserves to be in the HoF tbh. He was good but not great.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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I can understand the longevity argument against TD. Only 4 real healthy years is so minimal. On the field he played like a HoF though. That offense has produced some good runners but TD is the pinnacle of the position for it. 6400 yards rushing in his first 4 years was special.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:00 AM    (permalink
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The 2014 modern era preliminary list has been released.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...-era-nominees/

Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison and Tony Dungy are 4 of the 16 first-time eligible names on the ballot.

There are still quite a few names who are at least worthy of a nomination and for one reason or another have not been listed, while others on the list leave you scratching your head as to how they even got this far. Dave Meggett and Stephen Davis at RB, but no Corey Dillon, is just stupid.

I'm not saying these guys should be HOFers but they at least deserve the recognition of a preliminary list nomination. Some of them might even make good Seniors candidates further down the road.

RB: Corey Dillon
11,241 yds, seven 1,000 yd seasons, 89 career TDs

WR: Irving Fryar
851-12,785 with 84 career TDs which were great numbers for his era.

OL: Richmond Webb
Webb is a 4 times (2 1st team) All Pro/7 Pro Bowls/90s All Decade Team.

TE: Jay Novacek
5 Pro Bowls and 2-time All-Pro with 3 Super Bowl rings.

TE: Keith Jackson
5 Pro Bowls and 4-time All Pro (3 1st team).

DL: Leslie O誰eal, Neil Smith, Keith Millard, Simeon Rice, Clyde Simmons.
Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s for the Vikings. O誰eal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ career sacks. O誰eal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+ sacks. Smith and Rice also won Super Bowl rings which is an extra feather in their cap.

LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s, Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none, Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s

DB: Deron Cherry, Frank Minnifield and Carnell Lake.
Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s. All 3 deserve to be nominated.
Hell no to Richmond Webb. He's a guy who was made a name left tackle by Marino's release. Very beatable in pass protection...the catalyst for many Marino-under-duress release highlights.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:18 AM    (permalink
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Zach Thomas is eligible for the first time, I think he deserves it but I could just be a homer. Doubt he'd be a first ballot anyway but I hope he's at least a finalist.
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Old 09-12-2013, 06:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
I can understand the longevity argument against TD. Only 4 real healthy years is so minimal. On the field he played like a HoF though. That offense has produced some good runners but TD is the pinnacle of the position for it. 6400 yards rushing in his first 4 years was special.
I think that someday the senior committee will let TD in.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:34 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
The 2014 modern era preliminary list has been released.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...-era-nominees/

Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison and Tony Dungy are 4 of the 16 first-time eligible names on the ballot.

There are still quite a few names who are at least worthy of a nomination and for one reason or another have not been listed, while others on the list leave you scratching your head as to how they even got this far. Dave Meggett and Stephen Davis at RB, but no Corey Dillon, is just stupid.

I'm not saying these guys should be HOFers but they at least deserve the recognition of a preliminary list nomination. Some of them might even make good Seniors candidates further down the road.

RB: Corey Dillon
11,241 yds, seven 1,000 yd seasons, 89 career TDs

WR: Irving Fryar
851-12,785 with 84 career TDs which were great numbers for his era.

OL: Richmond Webb
Webb is a 4 times (2 1st team) All Pro/7 Pro Bowls/90s All Decade Team.

TE: Jay Novacek
5 Pro Bowls and 2-time All-Pro with 3 Super Bowl rings.

TE: Keith Jackson
5 Pro Bowls and 4-time All Pro (3 1st team).

DL: Leslie O誰eal, Neil Smith, Keith Millard, Simeon Rice, Clyde Simmons.
Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s for the Vikings. O誰eal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ career sacks. O誰eal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+ sacks. Smith and Rice also won Super Bowl rings which is an extra feather in their cap.

LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s, Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none, Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s

DB: Deron Cherry, Frank Minnifield and Carnell Lake.
Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s. All 3 deserve to be nominated.

Damn there are so many great players in this post. They may not all be HOFers, but give these guys an average QB and they are a lock for multiple SBs(if they were all on the same team.lol)

Please some vote Kevin Greene into Canton. Stop ignoring his production as a pass rusher.
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:55 AM    (permalink
Grizzlegom
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
The 2014 modern era preliminary list has been released.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...-era-nominees/

Walter Jones, Derrick Brooks, Marvin Harrison and Tony Dungy are 4 of the 16 first-time eligible names on the ballot.

There are still quite a few names who are at least worthy of a nomination and for one reason or another have not been listed, while others on the list leave you scratching your head as to how they even got this far. Dave Meggett and Stephen Davis at RB, but no Corey Dillon, is just stupid.

I'm not saying these guys should be HOFers but they at least deserve the recognition of a preliminary list nomination. Some of them might even make good Seniors candidates further down the road.

RB: Corey Dillon
11,241 yds, seven 1,000 yd seasons, 89 career TDs

WR: Irving Fryar
851-12,785 with 84 career TDs which were great numbers for his era.

OL: Richmond Webb
Webb is a 4 times (2 1st team) All Pro/7 Pro Bowls/90s All Decade Team.

TE: Jay Novacek
5 Pro Bowls and 2-time All-Pro with 3 Super Bowl rings.

TE: Keith Jackson
5 Pro Bowls and 4-time All Pro (3 1st team).

DL: Leslie O誰eal, Neil Smith, Keith Millard, Simeon Rice, Clyde Simmons.
Millard was 2nd team All Decade 1980s for the Vikings. O誰eal, Smith, Rice and Simmons were all All-Pros with 100+ career sacks. O誰eal has 132.5 career sacks and 8 seasons with 10+ sacks. Smith and Rice also won Super Bowl rings which is an extra feather in their cap.

LB: Pat Swilling 4(2AP)/5/90s, Greg Lloyd 3(3AP)/5/none, Hardy Nickerson 4(2AP)/5/90s

DB: Deron Cherry, Frank Minnifield and Carnell Lake.
Cherry is a 5(3AP)/6/80s. Carnell Lake, a 4(1AP)/5/90s and Minnifield 3(1AP)/4/80s. All 3 deserve to be nominated.
While I agree that maybe some of those guys might deserve to be "finalists" almost all of them have been finalists before and they did so poorly in the vote that they were removed from consideration moving forward. You have a lot of nice players there that had nice careers, but I wouldn't put any of those guys in the HoF.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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While I agree that maybe some of those guys might deserve to be "finalists" almost all of them have been finalists before and they did so poorly in the vote that they were removed from consideration moving forward. You have a lot of nice players there that had nice careers, but I wouldn't put any of those guys in the HoF.
My problem is that list of names are not even among the 126 nominees for the Class of 2014. None of them have ever been a "finalist" before which means you have to survive the cut down to 15. The first cut will the 25 semi finalists announced on November 27th.

How can Ken Harvey and Stephen Davis be judged worthy of being nominees and yet Corey Dillon and a multiple All Pro/All Decade safety like Deron Cherry are left out? They do make mistakes. It's hard to believe but Cortez Kennedy wasn't even on the preliminary list of nominees in 2007 and I think they also left out Chris Doleman one year, only to reinstate him. And both are now HOFers.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Corey Dillon, man....don't even get me started...lesser RBs have made it, and lesser RBs will make it.

And like somebody else said, Kevin Greene needs to get in.

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Old 09-12-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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My problem is that list of names are not even among the 126 nominees for the Class of 2014. None of them have ever been a "finalist" before which means you have to survive the cut down to 15. The first cut will the 25 semi finalists announced on November 27th.

How can Ken Harvey and Stephen Davis be judged worthy of being nominees and yet Corey Dillon and a multiple All Pro/All Decade safety like Deron Cherry are left out? They do make mistakes. It's hard to believe but Cortez Kennedy wasn't even on the preliminary list of nominees in 2007 and I think they also left out Chris Doleman one year, only to reinstate him. And both are now HOFers.
I know a number of them have been on it before. I know Irving Fryar, Richmond Webb, and Keith Jackson have been at least. Pretty sure Carnell Lake was as well. I can understand the issue with someone like Stephen Davis being on it over Corey Dillon, because that's laughable, but at the end of the day, I don't have any major issues because I highly doubt a lot of the ones that you'd have an issue with will end up getting in and the ones that do slip through the cracks will always have the senior committee.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
WCH
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Does anybody think Sterling Sharpe could eventually get in through the senior committee? He was my favorite player when I was a kid, but he obviously didn't do enough to get in without the senior committee.

I doubt he'll ever get in. I think I actually remember hearing that Shannon told him "we made it" when he found out that he was being inducted. Still, my inner 10 year old wants to think Sterling would someday get in on his own merits.
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