So do people still believe the Patriots skill players are good?

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Yeesh.

Yeah, just like Edelman. What a coincidence that it's the exact same team with the exact same coach that puts a receiver in at corner. The same team/coach that loved putting Vrabel at tight end in goal line packages.

This has nothing at all to do with their head coach's ego, showing off that he can do whatever he wants with anybody. Belichick most certainly did not mutter "suck my dick" after running up the score on Rex Ryan's Jets.

It's just that the Patriots are always loaded with these versatile 7th/8th round pick studs who can do all these things at a high level...things that nobody else can do.

After all, we know that coaches never do things like this for personal reasons...

Position distinctions are really important to you huh Jordan? I mean you have already established that a player with a number in the 50's can in no way possibly cover a 200 sq ft area against a player with a number in the 80's regardless of the player or situation.

Anyways curse BB's coaching genius! He's so brilliant that he was able to scheme a 6'4" 260 lb guy with decent hands to play a position generally occupied by 6'4" 260 lb guys with decent hands. What sorcery was this that allowed such a preposterous thing to happen? An out route at the back of the end zone you say? Brilliant! What innovation, it's too bad other coaches couldn't think of this.

Furthermore what cutting edge coaching he used to make completely averagely talented wide receivers into functional nickel CB's. Who knew guys who possess above average agility, good functional strength, ball skills, and demonstrated tackling ability could make it as CB's with brilliant schemes behind them? I mean it's not every day that somebody comes up with man coverage on a slot receiver or a zone covering the flat.

Never mind that these players probably played these positions in high school. Their college coaches decided that they should play another position, and after that those players should forget everything they ever learned playing other positions. How dare BB break with convention? He should have used a roster spot to sign a guy with less knowledge of the Patriots defensive playbook, who wasn't accustomed to the coaches and culture, and who possessed worse athletic ability just so they could put a # in the 20's on him. Then they'd be able to cover without brilliant scheming just like standouts Kyle Arrington and Darius Butler have.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Yeah, none of that had ANYTHING to do with Belichick's coaching prowess. What did good ole' Troy do before Bill got there? Let's take a look.

Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G YScm RRTD Fmb AV
1993 22 NWE PR 80 12 0 2 22 11.0 0 14 0.2 1.8 22 0 2 0
1994 23 NWE PR 86 9 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 2 0
1995 24 NWE 80 16 0 14 159 11.4 0 31 0.9 9.9 159 0 1 1
1996 25 NWE 80 16 0 21 222 10.6 0 38 1.3 13.9 222 0 0 2
1997 26 NWE wr 80 16 6 41 607 14.8 6 67 2.6 37.9 1 -18 0 -18 -18.0 -1.1 0.1 589 6 0 6
1998 27 NWE PR 80 10 0 23 346 15.0 1 52 2.3 34.6 346 1 0 3
1999 28 NWE PR 80 13 1 36 471 13.1 1 37 2.8 36.2 471 1 1 4

Wow! Clutch gritty Troy is lighting the world on fire. That kind of production is SPECIAL!

How did he start doing after Bill got there? More of the same really.

PR/WR 80 16 15 83 944 11.4 4 44 5.2 59.0 6 46 0 35 7.7 2.9 0.4 990 4 2 9
2001* 30 NWE PR/WR 80 16 13 101 1199 11.9 5 60 6.3 74.9 11 91 0 31 8.3 5.7 0.7 1290 5 2 16
2002 31 NWE PR/WR 80 14 13 97 890 9.2 3 38 6.9 63.6 3 14 0 21 4.7 1.0 0.2 904 3 4 9
2003 32 NWE PR/WR 80 12 10 40 472 11.8 4 82 3.3 39.3 6 27 0 11 4.5 2.3 0.5 499 4 2 4
2004 33 NWE 80 12 0 17 184 10.8 1 22 1.4 15.3 184 1 1 2
2005 34 NWE wr 80 13 3 39 466 11.9 2 71 3.0 35.8 466 2 0 5
2006 35 NWE WR 80 16 9 43 384 8.9 4 23 2.7 24.0 2 18 0 16 9.0 1.1 0.1 402 4 0 4
2007 36 NWE 80 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 1

So what's the excuse here gents? Clutch, special Troy had terrible QB'ing and terrible coaches before Bill? Does he get the Welker excuse?

I don't really think anybody is here to argue that Brown was a pro bowler in terms of production as a Wide Receiver, but to argue that Troy Brown wasn't a special player overall is preposterous. He along with Tom Brady and Ty Law were the biggest reasons why the Patriots won those Super Bowls. Whenever you'd watch a Patriot game you'd see Brown make a play that without it the Pats would have lost the game.

He just had an uncanny ability to be exactly what the Patriots needed at different times throughout his career. Whether it was blocking a FG for a TD and returning a punt for a TD against Pitt in the 2002 AFC Championship game, catching the longest pass during the Patriots last drive of SB XXXVI that put them in FG range, catching an 80 yard pass in OT to beat the Dolphins, making an exceptionally difficult catch during the SB XXXVIII final drive, or stripping a Chargers DB in the 2006 divisional round after a Brady Int that would have iced the game, he always came through. He also served as the only offensive threat in 2001 on a team that without Bledsoe and Glenn spent embarrassingly little on the offensive side of the ball. Not to mention stepping in as a DB in 2004 when Ty Law was out for the season, stabilizing a very precarious secondary situation.

These kinds of things can't be measure in stats. Call them made up intangibles to glorify averagely talented players if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they happened, and resulted in winning football games which is the ultimate goal.

[Don Vito]

This thread is 14 pages. Wow.

[Cudders]

Originally Posted by Don Vito

This thread is 14 pages. Wow.

Yeah, I don’t even know if I should bother. Questions have been sidestepped and points have been missed throughout.

That said, this argument seems to stem from perceptions of Belichick’s ego. Yes, Belichick has an ego. A massive one. He wants people to regard him as the best of all-time. You know what strokes a coach’s ego? The one thing that motivates and validates them more than others? Winning. Belichick wants to win. Period. He’s not sitting in his office and telling Robert Kraft, “Well, I want to win, but I just refuse to win with the best. I never want to resort to those cheap tricks. I’d much rather coach an inferior team. If that means losing, well, that means losing.”

Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl since 2004. Above all else, he’s driven to end his personal drought. Not prove a personnel point. These fabled mini-games don’t exist. He didn’t trade a second-rounder to a division rival in 2007 to prove that he could take a below-average receiver with below-average triangle numbers and turn him into a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He traded a second-rounder to a division rival because he thought his return was a prized piece of the puzzle. If he believed he could turn 122/1569/9 into 125/1875/15, then he would do it in a heartbeat. Might even invest a second-rounder in a superior athletic specimen instead. Someone with 4.32 speed. Someone with a 4.03 short shuttle. Someone with a 6.74 three-cone drill. Someone with a 38.5” vertical. Someone that just trumps Welker in all areas of receiving and shows no need for those fictive intangible traits. Someone like, I don’t know, Chad Jackson?

Oh wait.

[Don Vito]

Originally Posted by Cudders

Yeah, I don’t even know if I should bother. Questions have been sidestepped and points have been missed throughout.

That said, this argument seems to stem from perceptions of Belichick’s ego. Yes, Belichick has an ego. A massive one. He wants people to regard him as the best of all-time. You know what strokes a coach’s ego? The one thing that motivates and validates them more than others? Winning. Belichick wants to win. Period. He’s not sitting in his office and telling Robert Kraft, “Well, I want to win, but I just refuse to win with the best. I never want to resort to those cheap tricks. I’d much rather coach an inferior team. If that means losing, well, that means losing.”

Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl since 2004. Above all else, he’s driven to end his personal drought. Not prove a personnel point. These fabled mini-games don’t exist. He didn’t trade a second-rounder to a division rival in 2007 to prove that he could take a below-average receiver with below-average triangle numbers and turn him into a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He traded a second-rounder to a division rival because he thought his return was a prized piece of the puzzle. If he believed he could turn 122/1569/9 into 125/1875/15, then he would do it in a heartbeat. Might even invest a second-rounder in a superior athletic specimen instead. Someone with 4.32 speed. Someone with a 4.03 short shuttle. Someone with a 6.74 three-cone drill. Someone with a 38.5” vertical. Someone that just trumps Welker in all areas of receiving and shows no need for those fictive intangible traits. Someone like, I don’t know, Chad Jackson?

Oh wait.

Chad Jackson. Cudders with the TKO.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

I don't really think anybody is here to argue that Brown was a pro bowler in terms of production as a Wide Receiver, but to argue that Troy Brown wasn't a special player overall is preposterous. He along with Tom Brady and Ty Law were the biggest reasons why the Patriots won those Super Bowls. Whenever you'd watch a Patriot game you'd see Brown make a play that without it the Pats would have lost the game.

He just had an uncanny ability to be exactly what the Patriots needed at different times throughout his career. Whether it was blocking a FG for a TD and returning a punt for a TD against Pitt in the 2002 AFC Championship game, catching the longest pass during the Patriots last drive of SB XXXVI that put them in FG range, catching an 80 yard pass in OT to beat the Dolphins, making an exceptionally difficult catch during the SB XXXVIII final drive, or stripping a Chargers DB in the 2006 divisional round after a Brady Int that would have iced the game, he always came through. He also served as the only offensive threat in 2001 on a team that without Bledsoe and Glenn spent embarrassingly little on the offensive side of the ball. Not to mention stepping in as a DB in 2004 when Ty Law was out for the season, stabilizing a very precarious secondary situation.

These kinds of things can't be measure in stats. Call them made up intangibles to glorify averagely talented players if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they happened, and resulted in winning football games which is the ultimate goal.

I don't see an explanation for why Troy Brown suddenly morphed into Wes Welker after Bill got there. If he was so special, why wasn't he putting up Welker production beforehand?

[Denver Bronco56]

just to address the point above, that during his tenure with the Pats did not have the dynamic offense they do recently. People fail to remember when Brady did not play like an elite QB stat wise

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56

just to address the point above, that during his tenure with the Pats did not have the dynamic offense they do recently. People fail to remember when Brady did not play like an elite QB stat wise

Yes, Charlie Weis's scheme here emphasized passing to backs and had outside receivers run more slants than McDaniels's offense did in 2007 or now. Also, Troy Brown and Wes Welker were different receivers. Wes has more momentum when he catches passes, and is a bit more elusive than Troy was. Troy had better speed and was more acrobatic than Wes is. Welker is the better receiver of the 2, but they did not have the same role here considering Brown operated on the outside more than Welker does now.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56

just to address the point above, that during his tenure with the Pats did not have the dynamic offense they do recently. People fail to remember when Brady did not play like an elite QB stat wise

True. Brady is vastly different than he was in his first few years as a starter.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56

just to address the point above, that during his tenure with the Pats did not have the dynamic offense they do recently. People fail to remember when Brady did not play like an elite QB stat wise

I'm not talking about Brown's time with Brady. Pay attention. I'm talking about his laughable production before the 2000 season, which was before Bill got in town.

Where is the explanation for this? How could such a special player not perform when he doesn't get to play in one of the best offensive schemes the league has seen?

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

I'm not talking about Brown's time with Brady. Pay attention. I'm talking about his laughable production before the 2000 season, which was before Bill got in town.

Where is the explanation for this? How could such a special player not perform when he doesn't get to play in one of the best offensive schemes the league has seen?

Meh, Charlie Weis's scheme in 2001 wasn't anything special it was basically protect a young QB, and take shots when you needed to win the game. Troy wasn't a great receiver, just a great overall football player with a pretty incredible career.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

Meh, Charlie Weis's scheme in 2001 wasn't anything special it was basically protect a young QB, and take shots when you needed to win the game. Troy wasn't a great receiver, just a great overall football player with a pretty incredible career.

The difference was Weis at that time had a younger/not as good Brady and no Moss or Gronkowski(real threats). The point is they still played the dinky dunk game with Brown out of the slot, just like they do with Welker.

So again, I ask.....why wasn't Troy putting up Welker numbers before Bill got there? Maybe because he wasn't all that talented? Nah.....couldn't be that.

[AntoinCD]

I'm starting to come round to Jordan's line of thinking. BB is just the greatest offensive mind ever, he only pretended to be a defensive coach to troll the league. You look at it, Brown wasn't as successful before him, Welker was ok in Miami before becoming uber-productive in New England, and Randy Moss!!! Boy don't get me started on that guy, he sucked balls his whole career until Bill Belichick decided he was gonna screw around with the league again. Belichick takes turrrrrbel WRs and makes them great

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

The difference was Weis at that time had a younger/not as good Brady and no Moss or Gronkowski(real threats). The point is they still played the dinky dunk game with Brown out of the slot, just like they do with Welker.

So again, I ask.....why wasn't Troy putting up Welker numbers before Bill got there? Maybe because he wasn't all that talented? Nah.....couldn't be that.

Or the point could be that the Patriots offense is much different now than it was then. Brown was a good solid receiver, he didn't play out of the slot near as exclusively as Welker does now, and back then the Pats played in a lot more tightly bunched formations than they do even now. Troy got open from many different spots on the field, ran a diverse route tree, and produced despite playing with pitifully talented skill position players in 2001.

The argument remains that Troy had a great career, and was a talented overall football player. Your production and scheme posturing really doesn't change any of the discussion. He got his shot with BB, and he made the most of it. He wasn't the first player to emerge later in his career, and he won't be the last.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

Or the point could be that the Patriots offense is much different now than it was then. Brown was a good solid receiver, he didn't play out of the slot near as exclusively as Welker does now, and back then the Pats played in a lot more tightly bunched formations than they do even now. Troy got open from many different spots on the field, ran a diverse route tree, and produced despite playing with pitifully talented skill position players in 2001.

The argument remains that Troy had a great career, and was a talented overall football player. Your production and scheme posturing really doesn't change any of the discussion. He got his shot with BB, and he made the most of it. He wasn't the first player to emerge later in his career, and he won't be the last.

Great career? Little loose with the term "great" aren't we? He had exactly one season of 1,000+ yards and it was on 11.2 YPC with a whopping 5 touchdowns.

You still haven't answered my question. Why couldn't Troy Brown produce the low YPC welker type seasons before Bill got there? No sidestepping. Just answer it.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I'm starting to come round to Jordan's line of thinking. BB is just the greatest offensive mind ever, he only pretended to be a defensive coach to troll the league. You look at it, Brown wasn't as successful before him, Welker was ok in Miami before becoming uber-productive in New England, and Randy Moss!!! Boy don't get me started on that guy, he sucked balls his whole career until Bill Belichick decided he was gonna screw around with the league again. Belichick takes turrrrrbel WRs and makes them great

No one has ever said anything about Moss being a product. I've stated many times that the only "real" all pro skill position talents Bill and Tom have had were Moss and now Gronkowski.

Although it does make sense that Moss best season was in NE.

Now answer this without sidestepping- Why did Welker suck in Miami and why did Brown suck ass before Bill got to NE?

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I'm starting to come round to Jordan's line of thinking. BB is just the greatest offensive mind ever, he only pretended to be a defensive coach to troll the league. You look at it, Brown wasn't as successful before him, Welker was ok in Miami before becoming uber-productive in New England, and Randy Moss!!! Boy don't get me started on that guy, he sucked balls his whole career until Bill Belichick decided he was gonna screw around with the league again. Belichick takes turrrrrbel WRs and makes them great

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[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

I'm starting to come round to Jordan's line of thinking. BB is just the greatest offensive mind ever, he only pretended to be a defensive coach to troll the league. You look at it, Brown wasn't as successful before him, Welker was ok in Miami before becoming uber-productive in New England, and Randy Moss!!! Boy don't get me started on that guy, he sucked balls his whole career until Bill Belichick decided he was gonna screw around with the league again. Belichick takes turrrrrbel WRs and makes them great

post failure

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Great career? Little loose with the term "great" aren't we? He had exactly one season of 1,000+ yards and it was on 11.2 YPC with a whopping 5 touchdowns.

You still haven't answered my question. Why couldn't Troy Brown produce the low YPC welker type seasons before Bill got there? No sidestepping. Just answer it.

What am I sidestepping? I've never claimed Troy Brown was a great wide receiver. He had an outstanding career in New England for the reasons I mentioned previously. Did he have his best seasons with Tom Brady and BB, absolutely. Is that partially responsible for his production, probably. However, after watching Troy Brown for many seasons I deduced a general talent level from him in several different categories that it takes to be a quality receiver.

Again just like Wes Welker I could go through them all, but I think we both know how this type of argument would go down, and frankly I'm not interested.

[RCAChainGang]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

post failure

Double post failure

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

What am I sidestepping? I've never claimed Troy Brown was a great wide receiver. He had an outstanding career in New England for the reasons I mentioned previously. Did he have his best seasons with Tom Brady and BB, absolutely. Is that partially responsible for his production, probably. However, after watching Troy Brown for many seasons I deduced a general talent level from him in several different categories that it takes to be a quality receiver.

Again just like Wes Welker I could go through them all, but I think we both know how this type of argument would go down, and frankly I'm not interested.

You're sidestepping the question I have, which is why Welker and Brown sucked without Belichick. Then there's Deion Branch, who was a massive bust in Seattle.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

No one has ever said anything about Moss being a product. I've stated many times that the only "real" all pro skill position talents Bill and Tom have had were Moss and now Gronkowski.

Although it does make sense that Moss best season was in NE.

Now answer this without sidestepping- Why did Welker suck in Miami and why did Brown suck ass before Bill got to NE?

Oh hey guys, nice to see you

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

You're sidestepping the question I have, which is why Welker and Brown sucked without Belichick. Then there's Deion Branch, who was a massive bust in Seattle.

I'm not entirely sure. I'm generally uncomfortable talking in detail about things that I don't recollect, so I don't know what kept Brown from emerging in the earlier part of his career. I'll leave the blind speculation and theories based on things you've never seen to you guys, that is more your thing.

Also, I never thought Branch was particularly good. I still to this day believe that David Givens was a much better receiver.

[DBNYDP]

Welker didn't suck in Miami.
His first year, he was a rookie with Gus Ferrote as his QB. He was a 3rd receiving option but had a decent year as an undrafted WR.
His second year he led the team in the receptions and was second in the team in receiving by only 100 yards with Joey Harrington and Dante Cullpepper as his QB.

When he got to New England he was targeted more by Tom Brady so it really isn't a surprise he had a better year and continued to do so.

Not rocket science.

[AntoinCD]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

I'm not entirely sure. I'm generally uncomfortable talking in detail about things that I don't recollect, so I don't know what kept Brown from emerging in the earlier part of his career. I'll leave the blind speculation and theories based on things you've never seen to you guys, that is more your thing.

Also, I never thought Branch was particularly good. I still to this day believe that David Givens was a much better receiver.

Agreed, Branch was always a nice piece of the Pats offense but they absolutely swindled the Seahawks for a 1st round pick. I still gotta believe the Seahawks had the 2004 Superbowl on loop when they made that trade.

Bear in mind that Branch never had 1000 yards in a season or more than 5 TDs. He also never played a full season in Seattle and in fact his 2008 season was on pace to be his second best from a yardage standpoint and his best from a TD perspective.