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Old 12-22-2012, 10:29 AM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I in no way was trying to diss Welker. He's an odd cat, but he does, or did, have an NFL skillset to play WR. He's just not fast and he's not big.

What I was noticing is that when you look at most HOF QBs or those most likely to reach Canton, they've had typically very good to borderline elite WRs.
Except for Elway except towards the end of his career.

It seems like before every draft Belichick has a million extra picks, and I'm surprised he hasn't been able to parlay that into building a GB/Saints level WR corps over the years.


Yes Bill knows TEs. But he doesn't know WRs.

What do the Saints have that the Patriots never got? Colston and Moore are the only one's that are worth anything, and neither can get separation and they count on Brees drilling the ball into them. They do have great hands though.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Because some teams have a Calvin Johnson, an Andre Johnson, a Larry Fitzgerald, a Steve Smith, etc.
So? Those guys do completely different things for an offense than Wes Welker does. Having one of them doesn't make a Welker useless just like having Randy Moss didn't make Welker useless.

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Let's flip that around. Why did the Dolphins give him up for just a 2nd round draft choice if he's that good? If they had a legitimately exceptional wide receiver (who also did pretty well on punt returns for them), why didn't the Dolphins decide to keep him as their leading receiver...or at the very least ask for more in compensation?

Either it's Belichick's genius scheme that is responsible, or the Dolphins are complete idiots AND Belichick is a genius at evaluating talent and just saw that the Dolphins had this all-time great on their roster and pounced.

If that's the case, and Belichick is a genius at evaluating talent...it sure is funny how he can't find a good draft choice to save his life anymore.
Because the Dolphins were a terribly run organization, didn't have the scheme to take advantage of his talents, the QB to build an offense around, and were rebuilding. Meanwhile the Pats were offering a 2nd and late pick. Even if the Dolphins knew what they had and how to use him, they may well have taken that deal just because of where they were and how much rebuilding they still had left to do.

I'd also like to point out that you're the only who calls Welker an all time great, so you can stop pretending that that's what the argument's about.

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The Giants have these guys named "Hakeem Nicks" and "Victor Cruz." They posted pretty good numbers, you know. Kind of hard for Mario Manningham to catch 120 passes for 1200 yards and 7 touchdowns in a situation like that.
Mario's problem wasn't he didn't put up numbers, his problem was he didn't understand how to read a defense correctly and be where he had to be, that's why he needed a special simplified role to be effective and why, despite being in the offense before Nicks or Cruz, they quickly surpassed him. Mario just didn't have the mental skills necessary to succeed in the scheme, mental skills that Cruz and Welker have in spades, which is why they're so effective.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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So? Those guys do completely different things for an offense than Wes Welker does. Having one of them doesn't make a Welker useless just like having Randy Moss didn't make Welker useless.
I was explaining why there aren't a bunch of slot guys out there with 100 catches and 1,000 yards every year. It's because other teams actually have good receivers and throw to them further down the field, and their slot guys play a secondary role.

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Because the Dolphins were a terribly run organization, didn't have the scheme to take advantage of his talents, the QB to build an offense around, and were rebuilding. Meanwhile the Pats were offering a 2nd and late pick. Even if the Dolphins knew what they had and how to use him, they may well have taken that deal just because of where they were and how much rebuilding they still had left to do.
Why would you trade a 26-year-old receiver if you think he's a legitimately elite receiver? That doesn't make any sense. The Lions didn't trade Calvin Johnson after they went 0-16, now, did they?


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I'd also like to point out that you're the only who calls Welker an all time great, so you can stop pretending that that's what the argument's about.
I hope you know that the internet comprises more than just this website.

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Mario's problem wasn't he didn't put up numbers, his problem was he didn't understand how to read a defense correctly and be where he had to be, that's why he needed a special simplified role to be effective and why, despite being in the offense before Nicks or Cruz, they quickly surpassed him. Mario just didn't have the mental skills necessary to succeed in the scheme, mental skills that Cruz and Welker have in spades, which is why they're so effective.
Or maybe Nicks and Cruz are just better receivers and that's why they surpassed him.

This "mental skills" stuff is utter nonsense. It's pure conjecture of intangibles and a huge reach. You're basically pulling this stuff out of thin air and insisting/hoping it's true.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Why didn't welker become useless when he played with Randy Moss then? He was pretty good with the Pats so they did have someone other than Welker to throw to, since we're somehow not counting Gronk and Hernandez.

Again **** the rest of the internet, if you wanna argue with the rest of the internet go do that, if you wanna argue with us argue against what we're saying, and no one here is calling Welker the GOAT or even an elite WR.

As for the mental skills not only is it well documented with the Giants and Pats but just a little critical thinking explains why it is crucial in those schemes, but hey keep playing ignorant.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Why didn't welker become useless when he played with Randy Moss then? He was pretty good with the Pats so they did have someone other than Welker to throw to, since we're somehow not counting Gronk and Hernandez.

Again **** the rest of the internet, if you wanna argue with the rest of the internet go do that, if you wanna argue with us argue against what we're saying, and no one here is calling Welker the GOAT or even an elite WR.

As for the mental skills not only is it well documented with the Giants and Pats but just a little critical thinking explains why it is crucial in those schemes, but hey keep playing ignorant.
How do you accurately and objectively determine a player's mental skills, as a fan, who does not sit in any offensive meetings and is not present at practice? Oh that's right, you can't, and you're forced to go with regurgitated group think opinion to support your claims.

Funny how Welker the white guy is SUCH a braniac at the WR position. It's like in baseball when all the talentless turds like David Eckstein get called "gritty" and they have "hustle". Can't find any good descriptions of their talent, and forced to go with nonsense to describe their play. Like clockwork.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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How do you accurately and objectively determine a player's mental skills, as a fan, who does not sit in any offensive meetings and is not present at practice? Oh that's right, you can't, and you're forced to go with regurgitated group think opinion to support your claims.

Funny how Welker the white guy is SUCH a braniac at the WR position. It's like in baseball when all the talentless turds like David Eckstein get called "gritty" and they have "hustle". Can't find any good descriptions of their talent, and forced to go with nonsense to describe their play. Like clockwork.
I think it shows a lot that Welker is able to succeed and Chad Johnson a much more physically gifted athlete couldn't because he couldn't learn the playbook. That is one reason we know the scheme is hard to grasp. Another reason we know is because defenses get schooled year after year against the Pats. If they just had a run-of-the-mill offense then they wouldn't be good. And lastly, you have tape that you can watch to determine if a player is mentally on the same page as the QB.

Please stop trolling
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat View Post
How do you accurately and objectively determine a player's mental skills, as a fan, who does not sit in any offensive meetings and is not present at practice? Oh that's right, you can't, and you're forced to go with regurgitated group think opinion to support your claims.

Funny how Welker the white guy is SUCH a braniac at the WR position. It's like in baseball when all the talentless turds like David Eckstein get called "gritty" and they have "hustle". Can't find any good descriptions of their talent, and forced to go with nonsense to describe their play. Like clockwork.
Yes it's because of racism, ignoring how I've talked up the mental skills of Cruz, Moss, McCardell and Jimmy Smith, but yes definitely the racism. Not that I could possible try to comprehend what it means for a WR to need to read a defense pre- and post-snap and make the correct choice on what route to run versus what it means for a WR to just run the predetermined route, and it's certainly not because I've seen a number of receivers, white and black, fail to do so adequately for my favorite team over the past 8 years. It's system that asks a lot of it's receivers, and the ones that flourish do so because they have excellent football intelligence.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat View Post
How do you accurately and objectively determine a player's mental skills, as a fan, who does not sit in any offensive meetings and is not present at practice? Oh that's right, you can't, and you're forced to go with regurgitated group think opinion to support your claims.

Funny how Welker the white guy is SUCH a braniac at the WR position. It's like in baseball when all the talentless turds like David Eckstein get called "gritty" and they have "hustle". Can't find any good descriptions of their talent, and forced to go with nonsense to describe their play. Like clockwork.
You are a moron. Not sure where all your hate comes from but it seems to be targeted at Welker and now dragging David Eckstein into it for some baffling reason.

The funny thing is at your core you just hate those guys because they do have talent and are athletic while you are some turd that just sits on a couch drinks your beer and gets fat while sitting high and mighty behind your keyboard criticizing people because you are envious of their talent.

Your internet tough guy schtick is lame - can we ban this guy under this screen name and is jordan tabor screen name to?
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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Just some food for thought to those of you who that believe that Welker is only productive because he's targeted a million times, since 2006 here is what A. Johnson, C. Johnson, Welker, and Larry Fitzgerald have averaged per target.

8.943- Andre
8.827-Calvin
7.964- Welker
7.729-Fitz

I'm not saying he's as good as any of those guys, but he catches a higher percentage of his passes, so judging purely on a yards per catch basis is foolish.

Also, Welker runs a lot more than drags, outs, and screen passes. I mean it's easy for you to simply imagine Randy running a 9 and Welker running an out to the space he vacated, but that's not really how the Patriots offense works as much anymore. He does not operate purely out of the slot, and oftentimes lines up outside. Bill O'Brien and Josh McDaniels have expanded his role on offense as Gronk, Hernandez, and Edelman have absorbed some of his role that he had earlier in his career here.

I don't really have any extensive film to show you, but you can tell from these highlights that Welker has been effective in more areas than simply out routes, drags, and screens.



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Old 12-22-2012, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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So, we've established that Wes Welker would be less productive if he played in a system that didn't fit his skillset?

Do NFL coaches know this? I think we're really onto something here! Holy crap! Guys, do you think Belichick knew this when he traded for Welker???
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Very few NFL players would be productive in any NFL offensive or defensive system. Most are system guys to some extent.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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I don't get the constant feeding of the troll, but most of the comments against him are just wrong.

Athleticism? Are you ******** me arguing against his physical ability? His short-area quickness is elite. His straightline speed is very good - he is a player that gets behind a defense. He's strong and breaks tackles when he needs to. His weakness is that he's not the best leaper (which is the entirety of the argument against him), but he doesn't need to be with his role and his ability to create separation. His athletic ability compares more towards runningbacks than your typical outside WRs, but get that "not athletic" horse **** out of here.

He's an elite receiver. Fact. I'm not quite sure why people are skirting around this. He runs great routes, rarely makes a mistake in reading the defense, and is always where Tom needs him to be. All of his skills as a WR are elite.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:47 AM    (permalink
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Athleticism? Are you ******** me arguing against his physical ability? His short-area quickness is elite.
No, it really isn't.

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His straightline speed is very good - he is a player that gets behind a defense.
That is just objectively false.

You may as well try to argue that night is day, black is white, and the world is flat. There is not a receiver in the NFL who gets behind defenses at a lower rate than Wes Welker. His straight-line speed is not "very good" - it is absolutely awful. He's a 4.7 guy. On the occasions where he's in the open field running, he gets walked down quickly every single time. That doesn't happen to guys with "very good straight line speed."

Even the biggest, most delusional Welker fans in the world don't usually try to argue that Welker has good speed or gets behind defenses. That's just lunacy.

Welker has a career total of 13 plays of 40+ yards, and he's caught 750 passes in his career.

Many starting receivers will do 13 plays of 40+ yards in just 3 seasons...thrown to less than a third as much as Welker.

His 20+ yard play totals are even worse compared to other receivers. 83 out of 750 catches.

Keyshawn Johnson had 140 20+ yard plays out of 814 catches, by comparison. Of course, we all know how good Keyshawn was at getting behind defenses.

Quote:
He's strong and breaks tackles when he needs to.
When he needs to? What do you mean, when he needs to? Receivers break tackles when they can...if they can.

Welker breaks a tackle once in a blue moon, but so does every receiver in the league. He does not have a high rate of broken tackles at all. He usually just gets what's there and goes down upon first contact. He's not an exceptional runner after the catch.

Jerry Rice and John Taylor broke tackles. Terrell Owens broke tackles. Steve Smith breaks tackles. Anquan Boldin breaks tackles. Michael Crabtree breaks tackles. Julio Jones breaks tackles.

Wes Welker is ordinary at best in that aspect of the game.

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His weakness is that he's not the best leaper (which is the entirety of the argument against him),
No, it is not. And I've barely even mentioned that he has no leaping ability.

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but he doesn't need to be with his role and his ability to create separation. His athletic ability compares more towards runningbacks than your typical outside WRs, but get that "not athletic" horse **** out of here.
Yeah, uh...try lining Welker up at running back and see what happens. Seriously...just try it. If he were playing running back, he wouldn't even be able to make an NFL roster.

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He's an elite receiver. Fact.
No, that's a false statement.

And here we have one example of a guy here who is calling him elite...for all of you, "I don't care about the rest of the internet" folks.

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I'm not quite sure why people are skirting around this. He runs great routes, rarely makes a mistake in reading the defense, and is always where Tom needs him to be. All of his skills as a WR are elite.
He runs decent, not great routes. Isaac Bruce ran great routes. Bruce could plant and drive off a cut on a deep out and leave you stumbling. Wes Welker? You'll see a pig fly before you see Welker beat a corner one-on-one on a difficult pattern.

Rarely makes a mistake in reading the defense? What is he, a quarterback?

Always where Tom needs him to be...that's redundant. You already said he "rarely makes a mistake in reading the defense," which would imply he is always where Tom needs him to be.

You know who else was always where Tom needed him to be? Troy Brown. David Patten. David Givens. Deion Branch. Danny Woodhead.

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Old 12-23-2012, 06:22 AM    (permalink
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Why didn't welker become useless when he played with Randy Moss then? He was pretty good with the Pats so they did have someone other than Welker to throw to, since we're somehow not counting Gronk and Hernandez.
One other top receiver doesn't prevent another from putting up big numbers. But two certainly does, and that's the case on teams like the Falcons and Cowboys. When you're the third guy the coaches and QB look to in passing plays behind two other star players, you're not going to accumulate the kinds of numbers Welker does.

A lot of other teams spread it around evenly between a bunch of guys (Saints, Packers). It's just a difference in distribution, and it's not like these other top passing offenses are way behind the Patriots success-wise. Some of them have even been better.

I think it's also ridiculous how people think it's just so easy to copy a scheme. Don't you think you're underselling Belichick a little bit? The difference between the Welker defenders and people like me is, I think Welker is easily mimicked and easily replaced. You guys apparently think it's Belichick who is nothing special...and if every receiver could do what Welker does, every other coach would be doing the same thing with a slot receiver Belichick and co. do with Welker.

Well, Greg Roman sure as hell isn't going to do that in San Francisco, for example. You could hand Welker himself over to Roman and it wouldn't happen. What makes anyone think coaches are going to just copy the Patriots' offense?

Do you think after all these years in the NFL as an offensive coordinator, Kevin Gilbride is going to copy Belichick's scheme? How about Andy Reid and his staff...you think they're going to abandon everything they've been doing and start running the spread and call the slot's number repeatedly?

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Again **** the rest of the internet, if you wanna argue with the rest of the internet go do that, if you wanna argue with us argue against what we're saying, and no one here is calling Welker the GOAT or even an elite WR.
Where people are overrating Welker is irrelevant. I (and the OP) was just saying Welker is incredibly overrated. If people here don't rate him as highly as so many other fans, good for them. It doesn't mean Welker isn't incredibly overrated in general.

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As for the mental skills not only is it well documented with the Giants and Pats but just a little critical thinking explains why it is crucial in those schemes, but hey keep playing ignorant.
Well-documented? I'd like to see these "documents." Note: ESPN articles written by moronic bloggers don't count.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RCAChainGang View Post
I think it shows a lot that Welker is able to succeed and Chad Johnson a much more physically gifted athlete couldn't because he couldn't learn the playbook. That is one reason we know the scheme is hard to grasp. Another reason we know is because defenses get schooled year after year against the Pats. If they just had a run-of-the-mill offense then they wouldn't be good. And lastly, you have tape that you can watch to determine if a player is mentally on the same page as the QB.

Please stop trolling
Sincerely,
RCA
Chad Johnson wasn't successful during the season before he signed with New England, and he hasn't been successful since his year with the Patriots came to an end and he wound up in Miami and saw his career come to an end in bizarre fashion. Chad hasn't been the same player since 2007.

And a scheme that is difficult to learn = / = a scheme that is difficult to defend.

Please stop trying to argue when you have no clue what you're talking about,
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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One other top receiver doesn't prevent another from putting up big numbers. But two certainly does, and that's the case on teams like the Falcons and Cowboys. When you're the third guy the coaches and QB look to in passing plays behind two other star players, you're not going to accumulate the kinds of numbers Welker does.

A lot of other teams spread it around evenly between a bunch of guys (Saints, Packers). It's just a difference in distribution, and it's not like these other top passing offenses are way behind the Patriots success-wise. Some of them have even been better.

I think it's also ridiculous how people think it's just so easy to copy a scheme. Don't you think you're underselling Belichick a little bit? The difference between the Welker defenders and people like me is, I think Welker is easily mimicked and easily replaced. You guys apparently think it's Belichick who is nothing special...and if every receiver could do what Welker does, every other coach would be doing the same thing with a slot receiver Belichick and co. do with Welker.

Well, Greg Roman sure as hell isn't going to do that in San Francisco, for example. You could hand Welker himself over to Roman and it wouldn't happen. What makes anyone think coaches are going to just copy the Patriots' offense?

Do you think after all these years in the NFL as an offensive coordinator, Kevin Gilbride is going to copy Belichick's scheme? How about Andy Reid and his staff...you think they're going to abandon everything they've been doing and start running the spread and call the slot's number repeatedly?



Where people are overrating Welker is irrelevant. I (and the OP) was just saying Welker is incredibly overrated. If people here don't rate him as highly as so many other fans, good for them. It doesn't mean Welker isn't incredibly overrated in general.



Well-documented? I'd like to see these "documents." Note: ESPN articles written by moronic bloggers don't count.
The NFL is a copy cat league, of course we'd expect other coaches to borrow concepts that work from the successful teams the way teams started trying to recreate the Pats 3-4 a decade a go or the way teams have adopted more and more spread concepts in the last 5 years.

If Welker's so easily replaceable why has Belicheck invested so much in him instead of just replacing him the way he did future Hall of Famer Richard Seymour?

Again who cares how he's rated elsewhere, you're arguing here, against the people that post here, so address the arguments being made here.

And how about the Wall Street Journal? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...655455958.html That's a solid article about the choice routes Gilbride utilizes, do you believe that they exist now?
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Oh. Jordan Taber is one of those "holier than thou" trolls who keeps spewing out nonsense but tries to be all smart and sophisticated. Cudders destroying him is hilarious. I love cudders.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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I'll agree that saying Wes Welker is not athletic is just not true. He's not an elite athlete in the NFL, but he does have NFL skills and quickness.

But can we stop saying he has good speed??? Sometimes Welker can initially pick up yardage after the catch, be he's not outrunning NFL corners or safeties ever.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RCAChainGang View Post
I think it shows a lot that Welker is able to succeed and Chad Johnson a much more physically gifted athlete couldn't because he couldn't learn the playbook. That is one reason we know the scheme is hard to grasp. Another reason we know is because defenses get schooled year after year against the Pats. If they just had a run-of-the-mill offense then they wouldn't be good. And lastly, you have tape that you can watch to determine if a player is mentally on the same page as the QB.

Please stop trolling
Sincerely,
RCA
Oh yeah, that's some solid sure fire evidence of Welker's mensa IQ if there ever was evidence.

And really, shut up about the trolling dude. Not everyone is like this board and unable to identify football talent.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Oh. Jordan Taber is one of those "holier than thou" trolls who keeps spewing out nonsense but tries to be all smart and sophisticated. Cudders destroying him is hilarious. I love cudders.
Need to start a counter on how often the term "troll" was mis-used in this thread.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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I don't get the constant feeding of the troll, but most of the comments against him are just wrong.

Athleticism? Are you ******** me arguing against his physical ability? His short-area quickness is elite. His straightline speed is very good - he is a player that gets behind a defense. He's strong and breaks tackles when he needs to. His weakness is that he's not the best leaper (which is the entirety of the argument against him), but he doesn't need to be with his role and his ability to create separation. His athletic ability compares more towards runningbacks than your typical outside WRs, but get that "not athletic" horse **** out of here.

He's an elite receiver. Fact. I'm not quite sure why people are skirting around this. He runs great routes, rarely makes a mistake in reading the defense, and is always where Tom needs him to be. All of his skills as a WR are elite.
His straightline speed is very good - he is a player that gets behind a defense.


Ahahahahahaha. Oh god. New low for Draft Countdown's poster credibility
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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I'll agree that saying Wes Welker is not athletic is just not true. He's not an elite athlete in the NFL, but he does have NFL skills and quickness.

But can we stop saying he has good speed??? Sometimes Welker can initially pick up yardage after the catch, be he's not outrunning NFL corners or safeties ever.
People get boners over 40 time and verticals and think that is the only way to measure a players athletic ability. Having the short area quickness is an equal trait IMO. The overlooked drills For what Welker does he is the best because he has the elite ability to make plays in space. The three cone drill and 20 yard drill at the combine are very important for slot WRs just as the 40 and vert are looked at as very important for outside WRs.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Oh yeah, that's some solid sure fire evidence of Welker's mensa IQ if there ever was evidence.

And really, shut up about the trolling dude. Not everyone is like this board and unable to identify football talent.
Apparently you aren't able since you continue to think Welker is not a football talent.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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People get boners over 40 time and verticals and think that is the only way to measure a players athletic ability. Having the short area quickness is an equal trait IMO. The overlooked drills For what Welker does he is the best because he has the elite ability to make plays in space. The three cone drill and 20 yard drill at the combine are very important for slot WRs just as the 40 and vert are looked at as very important for outside WRs.
So....you don't think Julian Edelman could replicate Welker's production?
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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Apparently you aren't able since you continue to think Welker is not a football talent.
Reading comprehension failure. This is going south, real quick. Lol.
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