So do people still believe the Patriots skill players are good?

[Ness]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Epic post right here with a wealth of knowledge.

Well you seemed desperate for some. I felt obligated to help.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Ness

Well you seemed desperate for some. I felt obligated to help.

Aren't you the Alex Smith rimjobber on the 49er board? Lol dude, you're intellectually outmatched in a football conversation with me. Take your ball and go home. Lol.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Aren't you the Alex Smith rimjobber on the 49er board? Lol dude, you're intellectually outmatched in a football conversation with me. Take your ball and go home. Lol.

[FUNBUNCHER]

This dude was soooo awesome!!!
Don't put him in a conversation about stat inflation and overrated talent.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Ness

That's like the 4th time you've replied to me with some useless GIF...Did your hero's benching really sting that bad? It's just a game dude.

[farfromforgotten]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Derek Loville caught 87 passes in 1995 because of the system he was in. I can assure you of that. It wasn't because he was a better pass catcher than, say, Jerome Bettis.

He caught 33 balls the rest of his career.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by farfromforgotten

He caught 33 balls the rest of his career.

That might have been his point, eh Forrest? Jesus christ.

[farfromforgotten]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

That might have been his point, eh Forrest? Jesus christ.

Why did he not continue that success year after year then? If he were a product of the system? That wasn't his last year in San Francisco.

Welker does this **** year after year.

I shouldn't have to spell all that out.

[prock]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

That's like the 4th time you've replied to me with some useless GIF...Did your hero's benching really sting that bad? It's just a game dude.

You are just failing to realize when you're getting baited like a *****.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by farfromforgotten

Why did he not continue that success year after year then? If he were a product of the system? That wasn't his last year in San Francisco.

Welker does this **** year after year.

I shouldn't have to spell all that out.

Um, because he was replaced because he sucked, maybe?

The 49ers didn't care that he caught 87 passes. They cared that he averaged 3.3 yards/carry.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by farfromforgotten

Why did he not continue that success year after year then? If he were a product of the system? That wasn't his last year in San Francisco.

Welker does this **** year after year.

I shouldn't have to spell all that out.

It's called the 49ers upgraded big time at the position you fukken dunce. Heard of Garrison Hearst?

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by prock

You are just failing to realize when you're getting baited like a *****.

I don't get baited dude. The thing you don't get is, useless little memes or GIF's don't bother me in the slightest. The guy above, Ness or whatever, is one of the worst football posters I have ever come across, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has Alex Smith's name tattooed on his ass. His opinion and posts in any football discussion are utterly irrelevant because he has proven time and time again that he's just a little kid with no understanding of the game whatsoever.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

I don't get baited dude. The thing you don't get is, useless little memes or GIF's don't bother me in the slightest. The guy above, Ness or whatever, is one of the worst football posters I have ever come across, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has Alex Smith's name tattooed on his ass. His opinion and posts in any football discussion are utterly irrelevant because he has proven time and time again that he's just a little kid with no understanding of the game whatsoever.

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Ness

Ouch! Right in the gut dude!

How has the laser ink removal search been goin man?

[Ness]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Ouch! Right in the gut dude!

How has the laser ink removal search been goin man?

[farfromforgotten]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

It's called the 49ers upgraded big time at the position you fukken dunce. Heard of Garrison Hearst?

Too bad the Patriots haven't been able to upgrade over a turd like Welker after all these years, right? You've both lost another argument here. I'm done.

Name calling and aggressive posting does not make one smart. Only insecure and childish. Merry Christmas.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by farfromforgotten

Too bad the Patriots haven't been able to upgrade over a turd like Welker after all these years, right? You've both lost another argument here. I'm done.

Name calling and aggressive posting does not make one smart. Only insecure and childish. Merry Christmas.

If you have to declare yourself the winner of an argument, chances are you actually lost it.

The fact that you missed the point by a country mile is embarrassing. Derek Loville was replaced because he was horrible in the running game. SF was not a great place for a RB to gain yards on the ground after the mid-80s, once the dominating Cross/Fahnhorst tandem was gone.

But any running back in the league would catch a lot of passes in that system.

It's the same with Welker in New England. If Welker's out, Julian Edelman will catch 100+ passes in a year in that scheme. If Welker did something with the passes he caught, that would be one thing. But he doesn't - he gets just about the bare minimum.

[farfromforgotten]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

If you have to declare yourself the winner of an argument, chances are you actually lost it.

The fact that you missed the point by a country mile is embarrassing. Derek Loville was replaced because he was horrible in the running game. SF was not a great place for a RB to gain yards on the ground after the mid-80s, once the dominating Cross/Fahnhorst tandem was gone.

But any running back in the league would catch a lot of passes in that system.

It's the same with Welker in New England. If Welker's out, Julian Edelman will catch 100+ passes in a year in that scheme. If Welker did something with the passes he caught, that would be one thing. But he doesn't - he gets just about the bare minimum.

Any RB except Hearst, obviously... who caught 12 balls the year after Loville caught 87. Then 21 two years after.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by farfromforgotten

Any RB except Hearst, obviously... who caught 12 balls the year after Loville caught 87. Then 21 two years after.

Hearst wasn't on the 49ers the year after Loville caught 87. He was on the Bengals.

He caught 21 in 1997 in 13 games with a 49ers team that only threw it 432 times (as opposed to 644 the year Loville caught 87), then caught 39 balls the following year.

Plus, the 49ers often subbed Kirby in for him as the 3rd down back.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

. If Welker did something with the passes he caught, that would be one thing. But he doesn't - he gets just about the bare minimum.

I'm not really sure what you expect from the guy. If you could really say anything positive about the guy it's his ability to maximize YAC with a quick duck to avoid a tackle, or a quick cut to gain an extra yard or 2. 95% of what you've said in this thread is unsubstantiated conjecture and obvious hyperbole. For all you criticize him he's pretty much in the same realm in terms of yards per target as other highly targeted receivers. If all he's catching is bubble screens, drags, and out routes while simultaneously doing nothing extra once he's caught it, he'd never gain nearly as much as he has.

You really have no clue what his role is here, and all you've said is preconceived untrue nonsense.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by cmarq83

I'm not really sure what you expect from the guy. If you could really say anything positive about the guy it's his ability to maximize YAC with a quick duck to avoid a tackle, or a quick cut to gain an extra yard or 2. 95% of what you've said in this thread is unsubstantiated conjecture and obvious hyperbole.

I think what you mean to say is "obvious exaggeration." Hyperbole is intentional exaggeration.

If he maximized the run after the catch, he would make more big plays than he does. Out of all the underneath passes he's caught in his career, not once could he break away and take it the distance or for a really long gain. Randy Moss was only occasionally thrown screens with the Patriots, yet he took at least one of them to the house a few years back.

I reiterate: Welker gets what's there and rarely anything more than that. The first tackler with an angle on him gets him nearly every time.

For all you criticize him he's pretty much in the same realm in terms of yards per target as other highly targeted receivers. If all he's catching is bubble screens, drags, and out routes while simultaneously doing nothing extra once he's caught it, he'd never gain nearly as much as he has.

You really have no clue what his role is here, and all you've said is preconceived untrue nonsense.

Yards per target? Yeah, that's because most of the times Welker is targeted, the pass is completed. All the screens and drags and underneath stuff is a lot easier to complete than, say, a deep out or a dig.

Brady doesn't miss too many screen passes.

[RCAChainGang]

If he couldn't get YAC and all he is catching is screens and drags then his yards per target would suck, but cmarq just said it was on par with other leading receivers.

[Jvig43]

Yeah how exactly does a WR who doesn't get yards after the catch make his bread and butter on nothing but screens........

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

I think what you mean to say is "obvious exaggeration." Hyperbole is intentional exaggeration.

If he maximized the run after the catch, he would make more big plays than he does. Out of all the underneath passes he's caught in his career, not once could he break away and take it the distance or for a really long gain. Randy Moss was only occasionally thrown screens with the Patriots, yet he took at least one of them to the house a few years back.

I reiterate: Welker gets what's there and rarely anything more than that. The first tackler with an angle on him gets him nearly every time.



Yards per target? Yeah, that's because most of the times Welker is targeted, the pass is completed. All the screens and drags and underneath stuff is a lot easier to complete than, say, a deep out or a dig.

Brady doesn't miss too many screen passes.

Wes Welker is neither tall nor fast. Once we get past this, maybe you can actually analyze the situation. There is a vast difference between having deep speed to take a screen pass to the house, and having the agility to make the first guy miss to gain an extra 3-4 yards. Yes a guy like Randy might take a screen to the house a couple of times in his career, but that is usually a product of man coverage and a single high safety who isn't fast enough to catch Randy once he's up to full speed on the sideline. However, this play isn't really one that you're going to get a lot, and isn't exactly a high percentage play even if you do run it. I'd take a guy like Welker who is going to make a quick cut upfield, bounce off a tackler, and get you positive yardage giving you a shorter field to work with on later downs consistently than a guy who will take it to the house once or twice over his career.

The fact that you consider the ability to take one to the house as the only element in picking up extra yards after the catch is laughable. It doesn't take more than a simple google search to find out that Welker has picked up massive amounts of extra yards over his career, and has made a good amount of first tacklers miss or surrender more yardage in a tackling attempt than they should have.

Originally Posted by RCAChainGang

If he couldn't get YAC and all he is catching is screens and drags then his yards per target would suck, but cmarq just said it was on par with other leading receivers.

Exactly, he's attempting to have it both ways. Wes Welker is only productive because of the amount of targets he gets, so that is how he puts up his stats. However, when you show this not to be true he says its because he gets easy passes to pick up yards, but doesn't ever make anybody miss. However, since he doesn't ever break long passes he doesn't get easy yards. Is he somehow the biggest statistical anomaly ever? He's this short slow useless player who never picks up extra yards. Yet he somehow consistently gains over 1000 yards and convinced his HOF coach to invest $10 million to keep him around despite having someone who can replace him perfectly right on the bench.


Also, the use of hyperbole is fine there. You're exaggerating to make your argument to the point where it is clearly intentional and not meant to take at face value. For instance you're implying he gets the bare minimum which would be 0 YAC which is objectively not true. Thus you are using hyperbole to get your point across. Nice try on the grammar criticism though.

The fact that you're trying to correct this is just being combative for the sake of being combative.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by Jvig43

Yeah how exactly does a WR who doesn't get yards after the catch make his bread and butter on nothing but screens........

When did I say he doesn't get yards after the catch?

I said he doesn't maximize yards after the catch. Virtually every time a player catches a screen pass he will get some yards after the catch. The only way they don't is if someone jumps on it and makes the immediate stop.

Welker gets what's easy to get, and that's usually it. He'll run behind whoever is blocking up the sidelines and go out of bounds. Or he'll take it inside if there's a seam and then go down to whoever gets to him first.