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Old 01-24-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
OzTitan
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That said, Palmer did good work helping Eli master making presnap reads, so in time it could pay off.
Well, he *was* fired mid season.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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Thought i'd update this thread at the mid-point of the 2013 season. How would you grade these 13 guys now? This is just based off the eye test, i haven't looked at the stats. Grading all of the career but emphasis on 2013 season as well.

1. Wilson
2. Newton
3. Foles
4. Luck
5. RG3
6. Kaepernick

7. Bradford
8. Locker
9. Dalton
10. Tannehill

11. Ponder
12. Weeden
13. Gabbert
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
Thought i'd update this thread at the mid-point of the 2013 season. How would you grade these 13 guys now? This is just based off the eye test, i haven't looked at the stats. Grading all of the career but emphasis on 2013 season as well.

1. Wilson
2. Newton
3. Foles
4. Luck

5. RG3
6. Kaepernick

7. Bradford
8. Locker
9. Dalton
10. Tannehill

11. Ponder
12. Weeden
13. Gabbert
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:00 AM    (permalink
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Well if ponder wasn't done in Minnesota already, last night had to have sealed the deal. Just awful in the second half
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:42 AM    (permalink
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I will revise my own standings on these guys.

1. Russell Wilson
2. Andrew Luck
3. Cam Newton
4. Colin Kaepernick
5. Robert Griffin III
6. Nick Foles
7. Ryan Tannehill
8. Andy Dalton
9. Sam Bradford
10. Jake Locker

This is the first time I have put any of these guys over Luck, and I still believe Luck will end being the best, however right now I find it tough to name 3 or 4 QBs in the NFL better than Russell Wilson.

I have Foles relatively high based on a small sample size, however I think if given the full go at the Eagles job he could lead that offense consistently like he has been doing.

Tannehill is a difficult guy to evaluate. From an overall perspective he may have the most complete skill set of any of these guys however he is wildly inconsistent. It doesn't help that the Dolphins do a lot to help him succeed. Despite the fact that his offensive line is the worst in the NFL and he is maybe a top 3 QB throwing on the move they rarely move the pocket for him. He is the type of guys who could rise pretty high on this list or just bottom out.
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:45 AM    (permalink
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Now I am not saying that he is better then Luck and as of career yes Luck is better then Foles but its not a laughable difference right now as what is happening in 2013.

Foles is out performing Luck in every major statical category except total yards this year because of less starts. He has more touchdowns( in less starts), higher rating, higher completion percentage, higher yards per completion, and if you even double the amount of turnovers Foles has he will still only have 25% of the turnovers that Luck has.

I love what Foles is doing and I still need to see more to be convinced but the Eagles may have their QB for the rest of the year and the one for the next 10 years. He may also fall flat on his face and stink for the rest of the year. And Luck may go on to be the next Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

But this is very much a possibility that between Luck, Russell, Foles, RG3 and Tannehill that this could be the best qb class since 83.

Last edited by igglefanz : 11-18-2013 at 08:40 PM. Reason: ment to put 83 lol
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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If I'm starting a franchise I pick Luck, Cam or Tannehill, in that order. Next would probably be Russell, Bradford, RGIII, Locker, Kaep and finally Dalton. I'd rather just pull a minnesota not get my pick in on time than go with old man weeden, gabbert or ponder.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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Now I am not saying that he is better then Luck and as of career yes Luck is better then Foles but its not a laughable difference right now as what is happening in 2013.

Foles is out performing Luck in every major statical category except total yards this year because of less starts. He has more touchdowns( in less starts), higher rating, higher completion percentage, higher yards per completion, and if you even double the amount of turnovers Foles has he will still only have 25% of the turnovers that Luck has.

I love what Foles is doing and I still need to see more to be convinced but the Eagles may have their QB for the rest of the year and the one for the next 10 years. He may also fall flat on his face and stink for the rest of the year. And Luck may go on to be the next Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

But this is very much a possibility that between Luck, Russell, Foles, RG3 and Tannehill that this could be the best qb class since 84.
I really like Nick Foles although it's probably too early to say anything definitive about his rankings.

I think you meant 1983, 84 didn't have any QBs in the first round.
Having actually lived through that class i wouldn't be putting the class you mentioned anywhere near those guys. For me the jury is still out on RG3 and Tanneyhill and to an extent Nick Foles.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Russell Wilson is the troof.

Luck and Wilson are 1A and 1B right now.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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1. Nick "Blue Eyed White Dragon" Foles


900. Luck
901. Wilson
902. Cam Newton


900001. Ryan Tannehill
900002. RG3
900003. Sam Bradford
900004. Colin Kaepernick

90000000000000000000001. Brandon Weeden
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Kaepernick and Griffin are just not good enough passers to be franchise QBs. Last year they had success due to the newness of the pistol formation which allowed them to get really easy reads downfield. Now that defenses have adapted to the pistol and the read option in general, those "easy" reads are not there for them and they are struggling to go through their progressions and make accurate, intelligent passes into tight windows.

Always take the pocket passer over the athletic QB. I'd rank the "young" QBs thusly:

1. Andrew Luck (highest upside and intangibles in this group)
2. Russell Wilson (better passer than both Kaepernick and Griffin)
3. Nick Foles (classic pocket passer with upside)
4. Ryan Tannehill (great arm with room to grow as a passer)
5. Cam Newton (not a great passer but better than Kaepernick and Griffin)
6. Andy Dalton (game manager who still has to be more consistent)
7. Robert Griffin III (needs alot of work as a passer and his health concerns scare me)
8. Colin Kaepernick (extremely overrated based on last year's sample of games on a team with the best roster in 2012)
9. Jake "The Hurt Locker" (more talent than the others here but simply cannot stay healthy at all)
.
.
.

99. Ponder, Gabbert, Weeden, Bradford

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Old 11-18-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Kaepernick and Griffin are just not good enough passers to be franchise QBs. Last year they had success due to the newness of the pistol formation which allowed them to get really easy reads downfield. Now that defenses have adapted to the pistol and the read option in general, those "easy" reads are not there for them and they are struggling to go through their progressions and make accurate, intelligent passes into tight windows.
Both are in their second season and have had success in the past. This doesn't make sense. That would be like giving up on Steve McNair in his second season (or first few years) because he ran around a lot. Or Daunte Culpepper because he has a sophmore slump in his second starting season.

And Kaepernick's success this season has been limited because of the personnel he's had to deal with. That and Greg Roman's gameplans. Losing Moss, Walker, and Ginn was a worse blow than anticipated. They could stretch the field. Now it's only Vernon Davis and he's been banged up all season long. And the personnel we do have to work with haven't been utilized really at all in ways that they could be effective. We haven't passed to the backs that much or run that many short routes until recently.

I haven't been following Griffin III that much, but he just came off a knee injury. Your analysis is ridiculous.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Both are in their second season. This doesn't make sense. That would be like giving up on Steve McNair in his second season.
It's about the physical tools they have. They are runners first and foremost. That is always the death knell of QBs in the NFL. Running skills are actually *bad* for a QB. It retards their growth as a passer because they always want to use their talent. Being a *bad* runner with low speed actually turns a player into a better passer in the long run because they *know* that they will never win games with their legs and are forced to improve their passing fundamentals.

It's like a beautiful woman - when she is young and attractive she doesn't have to develop a personality. There's no need to do so; it's a waste of time for her because she can get anything she wants (friends, money, attention) with just her looks alone. So when she gets older and her beauty fades, she doesn't know how to cultivate real relationships with people who aren't fawning over her beauty.

The running QB, even if he has potential to develop into a pocket passer, wants to run first and foremost because that gift is always there. It's what made him great in high school and college. He never has to work on his passing fundamentals when he's younger because it's a waste of time - he just wins in HS and college with his athletic talent. It takes a rare, studious, hard-working player to make the transition to pocket passer when running is just so easy.

I don't think Griffin or Kaepernick will make that transition when coaches will keep trying to win games *right now* by telling them to run around and make plays.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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I'd take

1) Cam
2) Wilson
3) Luck
4) RG3

After that I'd have a hard time deciding
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Both are in their second season and have had success in the past. This doesn't make sense. That would be like giving up on Steve McNair in his second season (or first few years) because he ran around a lot. Or Daunte Culpepper because he has a sophmore slump in his second starting season.

And Kaepernick's success this season has been limited because of the personnel he's had to deal with. That and Greg Roman's gameplans. Losing Moss, Walker, and Ginn was a worse blow than anticipated. They could stretch the field. Now it's only Vernon Davis and he's been banged up all season long. And the personnel we do have to work with haven't been utilized really at all in ways that they could be effective. We haven't passed to the backs that much or run that many short routes until recently.

I haven't been following Griffin III that much, but he just came off a knee injury. Your analysis is ridiculous.
I think his analysis is knee-jerk to what has gone on with 10 games this year so too soon to give up on those two. If i had to bet i'd say one of them will bust hard here in the next couple of years though.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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It's about the physical tools they have. They are runners first and foremost. That is always the death knell of QBs in the NFL. Running skills are actually *bad* for a QB. It retards their growth as a passer because they always want to use their talent. Being a *bad* runner with low speed actually turns a player into a better passer in the long run because they *know* that they will never win games with their legs and are forced to improve their passing fundamentals.

It's like a beautiful woman - when she is young and attractive she doesn't have to develop a personality. There's no need to do so; it's a waste of time for her because she can get anything she wants (friends, money, attention) with just her looks alone. So when she gets older and her beauty fades, she doesn't know how to cultivate real relationships with people who aren't fawning over her beauty.

The running QB, even if he has potential to develop into a pocket passer, wants to run first and foremost because that gift is always there. It's what made him great in high school and college. He never has to work on his passing fundamentals when he's younger because it's a waste of time - he just wins in HS and college with his athletic talent. It takes a rare, studious, hard-working player to make the transition to pocket passer when running is just so easy.

I don't think Griffin or Kaepernick will make that transition when coaches will keep trying to win games *right now* by telling them to run around and make plays.
That logic is ridiculous. If that's the case why did Steve Young, Steve McNair, and Donovan McNabb have successful careers? Why is Newton having a successful career? Either you're good or you aren't. Either you get better or you don't. There have been countless quarterbacks that have come into the NFL that were pocket passers and sucked.

And Kaepernick has barely taken off this season. He hasn't been told to "run around" and make plays with his feet. If anything the coaching staff has limited that tendency. Not that Colin has come off as someone that was that wreckless last season either.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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That logic is ridiculous. If that's the case why did Steve Young, Steve McNair, and Donovan McNabb have successful careers? Why is Newton having a successful career? Either you're good or you aren't. Either you get better or you don't. There have been countless quarterbacks that have come into the NFL that were pocket passers and sucked.
Steve Young is the exception - a very hard worker who did alot to change his tendencies and quite the studious player (high IQ).

McNabb and McNair were good but not great players and really were only highly rated because of the teams they played on - teams with great defenses.

They really were never exceptional passers or QBs at all. McNabb had one good year as a QB in 2004, outside of that, marginal QB. McNair had a few decent years like 2003, but outside of that, again, marginal QB on great teams.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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McNair was the best player on all those Titans teams.


Eddie and rookie year Kearse being close seconds.
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I love light skin and white women but my main chick is brown skin
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:38 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Steve Young is the exception - a very hard worker who did alot to change his tendencies and quite the studious player (high IQ).

McNabb and McNair were good but not great players and really were only highly rated because of the teams they played on - teams with great defenses.

They really were never exceptional passers or QBs at all. McNabb had one good year as a QB in 2004, outside of that, marginal QB. McNair had a few decent years like 2003, but outside of that, again, marginal QB on great teams.
Steve Young also benefited from being with one of the best coaching staffs ever assembled along with a roster stockpiled full of talent on both sides of the ball. He was in a goldmine situation. McNair and McNabb didn't have that. And yes they were exceptional passers. Not Hall of Fame level, but very good. Both of those guys showed the ability to carry their teams to victory when it was needed. That is what a franchise quarterback is all about. There are other examples like John Elway or Fran Tarkenton. Both had a penchant for making plays with their feet, but also developed into good passers.

But really, the entire premise is bogus to begin with because like I said, there have been tons of pocket passers, countless, that have flopped in the NFL. Not everyone is coached the same either. And you can't simply paint a black and white picture about everyone's psyche for how they play the game and make a judgment like that.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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The way you fight thumpers is by giving him inputs that cause an internal contradiction.

So thumper, who's a better QB Nick Foles, or Kevin Kolb?
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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1. Andrew Luck

2. Russell Wilson


3. Cam Newton


4. Nick Foles
5. Ryan Tannehill
6. Robert Griffin III
7. Colin Kaepernick


8. Andy Dalton
9. Sam Bradford
10. Jake Locker (If he could only stay healthy... *siigh*)



Ponder, Weeden.





Gabbert.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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1- Luck
2- Wilson
3- Newton
4- Dalton
5- Kapernick
6- Bradford
7- RGIII
8- Foles
9 - Tannehill
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Tannehill is still mad underrated on here.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Thought i'd update this thread at the mid-point of the 2013 season. How would you grade these 13 guys now? This is just based off the eye test, i haven't looked at the stats. Grading all of the career but emphasis on 2013 season as well.

Franchise QBs
1. Wilson
2. Newton
4. Luck

Not performing up to hype, still need to prove
5. RG3 - Whether you want to blame the injury or not, show us you make good decisions in passing game as well, kind of a down soph year to be expected though
6. Kaepernick - Not elite. Overhyped during offseason. Really struggling without top WR threats
3. Foles - If he would have started 8 games last year and all this season and still put up similar stats to what he has now, he'd be at top of this category (2nd tier) still might be by end of season
7. Bradford - I didn't like him as the #1 pick when he came out. Still not sold. Was improving though before his injury.
8. Locker - Similar to Bradford. Thought he was overdrafted, but is showing signs of maybe? before injury
9. Dalton - This guy. Has hot streaks and really cold streaks.
10. Tannehill - Shows promise. Could jump the 3 QBs above him with a strong finish to season

Are you kidding me QBs

11. Ponder - Grocery bagger
12. Weeden - Can't bag groceries, they'd end up on floor. Janitor, maybe?
13. Gabbert - Guy needs a spinner hat and that'd still be too dangerous
.................................
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Tier I:

1) Wilson
2) Newton
3) RGIII

After that it gets messy.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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