Alex Smith is a Chief

[Ness]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I'm still waiting for a legit argument as to why Cassel is any different from Alex Smith.

I haven't watched that many Cassel games when he was with the Chiefs. From the times I have watched him it seems like he's trying to do too much and that results in interceptions or other bad plays. The last season and a half with Alex, he's been a lot more conservative, which has frustrated 49ers fans at times including myself, but at the same time at least he's developed the common sense to not just throw wild passes and are probably going to get picked off. Where both players are now in their careers, I'd say the Chiefs slightly upgraded with Cassel. It's just a shame it was for a second round pick and potentially another one.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

So basically you can't give me a legit reason so you'll just say every qb is different?
Got it.

Continue on.
Still waiting for a legitimate argument.

So you are saying they are clones?
Inentical twins?
What?

If you watched the Chiefs last year, and the year before, you'll realize Cassell failed.

How bad was he?
The normally great fans of the Chiefs boo'd him when he got injured last year.
They were GLAD to see him go down & out.

What's your point?

[FlyingElvis]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

First round picks also have a much higher chance of being good or great players. Most of the those second round picks you listed are average or worse starters. Very few are great players.

Pretty much the entire list of 09 guys are studs. The 08 list is similar with only 4 or 5 "average or worse starters."

I'm not in the "OMG Draft Picks Are GOLD" camp, but you really need to just give up this argument. Sure, the Chiefs could very easily draft a bum with that second round pick, but you can't just continue with a blanket statement that is pretty clearly wrond.

Well, you can, I guess. It doesn't make it any less silly, though.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

I don't use that as an excuse, it is about having a competent OC not how many you have, but Jay Cutler has not performed any better than Alex Smith the past few seasons, even including Smith's 2010 season.

Jay Cutler doesn't have nearly the same talent around him either yet still is asked to do a lot more than Smith is.

Good OCs is another myth. What makes a good OC a good OC? The playcalls work?

Well guess who makes the playcalls work? THE PLAYERS.

I never seen a play designed to not work. When someone can show me a play that was designed to not work, please send it over my way. I'd love to see it.

All an OC can do is call the play. The players have to execute it.

I can tell you to cook me a steak. If you make a ****** steak, is it my fault for telling you to cook it, or is it your fault for cooking a ****** steak?

[vidae]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

So you are saying they are clones?
Inentical twins?
What?

If you watched the Chiefs last year, and the year before, you'll realize Cassell failed.

How bad was he?
The normally great fans of the Chiefs boo'd him when he got injured last year.
They were GLAD to see him go down & out.

What's your point?

Again, Chiefs fans did not boo Cassel getting hurt. Stop spouting this ******** nonsense.

[Shupp]

Originally Posted by vidae

Rumors as of right now.

Still just rumors?

[J-Mike88]

Here's another difference between Matt Cassell and Alex Smith:

The story is not just how or when he was benched, but why he was benched. On Nov. 11, one season after leading the 49ers to the NFC championship game, Smith had led them to a 6-2 record when he suffered a concussion after the collision in the first half of an eventual 24-24 tie with the St. Louis Rams.

At the time, in Smith's previous eight quarters of football, he had completed 32 of 35 passes for 385 yards with five touchdowns and one interception. That's right, in that stretch he had more touchdown passes than incompletions.

In his last full game before the injury, Smith had completed 18 of 19 passes in a rout against the Arizona Cardinals, clearly showing that in his eighth NFL season, he finally arrived.

[vidae]

Originally Posted by Shupp

Still just rumors?

I said that three days ago, and when I said it, it was true. You want a cookie or something?

[vidae]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Here's another difference between Matt Cassell and Alex Smith:

The story is not just how or when he was benched, but why he was benched. On Nov. 11, one season after leading the 49ers to the NFC championship game, Smith had led them to a 6-2 record when he suffered a concussion after the collision in the first half of an eventual 24-24 tie with the St. Louis Rams.

At the time, in Smith's previous eight quarters of football, he had completed 32 of 35 passes for 385 yards with five touchdowns and one interception. That's right, in that stretch he had more touchdown passes than incompletions.

In his last full game before the injury, Smith had completed 18 of 19 passes in a rout against the Arizona Cardinals, clearly showing that in his eighth NFL season, he finally arrived.

And they still traded him. Shows how much faith they had, considering he was BASICALLY UNSTOPPABLE!

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

So you are saying they are clones?
Inentical twins?
What?

If you watched the Chiefs last year, and the year before, you'll realize Cassell failed.

How bad was he?
The normally great fans of the Chiefs boo'd him when he got injured last year.
They were GLAD to see him go down & out.

What's your point?

And if you seen Smith before 2010, you'd realize he failed. So what's yours?

Both had 2 good seasons under ideal circumstances. Both have succeeded under those ideal circumstances. Both have the same physical attributes and shortcomings.

Both have had success and failure. Both require ideal circumstances to succeed and have a clear history to indicate that.

So again, what's the difference? Give me a REAL difference. A tangible difference. I'm still waiting for it

I'm being accused of not providing any tangible evidence of why Smith is not a good qb.

So I am in turn, asking you Smith supporters to provide me tangible evidence why Smith is different from Cassel that I cannot refute.

So go ahead. Show it to me. I'm waiting for it.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by FlyingElvis

Pretty much the entire list of 09 guys are studs. The 08 list is similar with only 4 or 5 "average or worse starters."

I'm not in the "OMG Draft Picks Are GOLD" camp, but you really need to just give up this argument. Sure, the Chiefs could very easily draft a bum with that second round pick, but you can't just continue with a blanket statement that is pretty clearly wrond.

Well, you can, I guess. It doesn't make it any less silly, though.

I agree that a 2nd round pick is too much, though. I just don't think it is way too much. A third and a conditional 3rd would have been much better.

Jay Cutler doesn't have nearly the same talent around him either yet still is asked to do a lot more than Smith is.

Good OCs is another myth. What makes a good OC a good OC? The playcalls work?

Well guess who makes the playcalls work? THE PLAYERS.

I never seen a play designed to not work. When someone can show me a play that was designed to not work, please send it over my way. I'd love to see it.

All an OC can do is call the play. The players have to execute it.

I can tell you to cook me a steak. If you make a ****** steak, is it my fault for telling you to cook it, or is it your fault for cooking a ****** steak?

Cutler really isn't asked to do more than Smith. In this thread I even posted their numbers. They have nearly identical YPG and attempts per game over the past three years.

I agree to some extent the players make the OC but Jim Hostler and Jimmy Raye are just awful OCs regardless of the players. It is not like the 49ers had tons of offensive talent with them, either.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

And changing offensive systems is pretty overrated of an excuse as well. Jay Cutler has had 5 different offenses in the past 5 years. Or is it 6? I forget exactly how many.

But he's doing just fine.

NFL offenses aren't really all that different. Terminology may be different, but not really the playbooks. Playcalling is different, but the playbook is relatively the same. A slant is a slant no matter what type of offense you're running. A go is a go.

It's not the end of the world to change systems on a player.

Actually, changing offenses is harder on the players surrounding the qb vs the qb himself. Qbs adjust to the new offense rather quickly. It's the surrounding talent that can struggle at times, but even then it's overrated.

How do you think players get traded or cut and wind up on a new team and are ready to go within 2 weeks? The playbook is not that different.

Enough with the 6 different OCs and 6 different systems crap. It's just an excuse.

Right, but how many coordinators did Cutler have starting out? He had Mike Shanahan for his first three years straight as his head coach. So even if the coordinator bounced (I don't remember if he did during his time in Denver) the offense stayed relatively the same. Then he had Ron Turner in Chicago. Then he had Mike Martz for two years straight. Now there is Mike Tice. Now there will be a new guy in town. Cutler still makes some stupid mistakes though. I think that's just a result of his playing nature though combined with bad offensive line play, not his coordinators. Point is, as a young player Cutler had a decent degree of stability with the offenses he was in. Having Brandon Marshall to throw too always helps matters as well. And BBD, you have to remember that every quarterback in every situation is different. Cutler is more talented than Smith, but that doesn't mean that having an influx of coordinators to start out your career won't be an issue. It's just not a logical way to go about things. Even if you are a bad team you still want to put your new quarterback that is the face of the franchise in the best situation possible for him to grow and excel.

[abaddon41_80]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

And if you seen Smith before 2010, you'd realize he failed. So what's yours?

Both had 2 good seasons under ideal circumstances. Both have succeeded under those ideal circumstances. Both have the same physical attributes and shortcomings.

Both have had success and failure. Both require ideal circumstances to succeed and have a clear history to indicate that.

So again, what's the difference? Give me a REAL difference. A tangible difference. I'm still waiting for it

I'm being accused of not providing any tangible evidence of why Smith is not a good qb.

So I am in turn, asking you Smith supporters to provide me tangible evidence why Smith is different from Cassel that I cannot refute.

So go ahead. Show it to me. I'm waiting for it.

I will post this one more time,

Cassel's best season was not better than Smith before he got hurt this year. Cassel's 2010 season was about as good as Smith's 2011. Cassel subsequently had the chance to prove it wasn't a fluke and failed miserably. Cassel is also not a QB who anyone thought ever had talent. Smith, whether you think he was picked too high or not, was the #1 overall pick and had only started 50 games and shown improvement during that span before Harbaugh got there. The comparison is awful.

Cassel had a great TD/INT ratio in 2010 but he completed under 60% of his passes with a <7 YPA. More than a third of his completions went to running backs and another third went to a receiver who would often come down will balls thrown into triple coverage that year. Hate Smith as much as you want but he doesn't check down nearly as much. Only 16% of his completions went to running backs in 2011, and it was on pace to be even lower this year. Don't let things like facts get in your way, though.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

I will post this one more time,

Cassel's best season was not better than Smith before he got hurt this year. Cassel's 2010 season was about as good as Smith's 2011. Cassel subsequently had the chance to prove it wasn't a fluke and failed miserably. Cassel is also not a QB who anyone thought ever had talent. Smith, whether you think he was picked too high or not, was the #1 overall pick and had only started 50 games and shown improvement during that span before Harbaugh got there. The comparison is awful.

Cassel had a great TD/INT ratio in 2010 but he completed under 60% of his passes with a <7 YPA. More than a third of his completions went to running backs and another third went to a receiver who would often come down will balls thrown into triple coverage that year. Hate Smith as much as you want but he doesn't check down nearly as much. Only 16% of his completions went to running backs in 2011, and it was on pace to be even lower this year. Don't let things like facts get in your way, though.

And I will continue to laugh at your point, bc you're comparing 16 games to 8.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by vidae

Again, Chiefs fans did not boo Cassel getting hurt. Stop spouting this ******** nonsense.

Really?
I seem to recall seeing interviews after the game with one of your players bitching about this, and hearing commentators talking about it during the game, and after the game.

But I guess you trump all them.


Eric Winston rips Chiefs fans for cheering Matt Cassel injury
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...fan...el.../1618595/
Oct 7, 2012 – Kansas City Chiefs tackle Eric Winston ripped fans for cheering the injury of embattled quarterback Matt Cassel on ... Sometimes they think that fans are booing them as a father or son or husband, not as a football player.

Kansas City fans crossed the line by cheering when Chiefs QB Matt ...
sports.yahoo.com/.../nfl--fan-crossed-the-line-by-cheering-wh...
Oct 7, 2012 – Chiefs quarterback Matt Cassel was knocked to the ground for several minutes ... This is far, far worse than Kansas City fans booing New York ...

Booing of Matt Cassel's injury by Kansas City Chiefs fans a sign of ...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/.../booin...efs-fans.../st...
Oct 9, 2012 – Kansas City fans cheered Sunday when quarterback Matt Cassel was knocked out. Teammate Eric Winston came to his defense.

Chiefs fans cheer quarterback Matt Cassel's injury | It's Always ...
itsalwayssunnyindetroit.com/.../chiefs-fans...mat...
Oct 8, 2012
... City Chiefs fans applauded when their starting quarterback Matt Cassel ... country, KC fans have done ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV6YlTgN_xQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20qL_cdiKA8

[Ness]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I can tell you to cook me a steak. If you make a ****** steak, is it my fault for telling you to cook it, or is it your fault for cooking a ****** steak?

Depends on the situation. Is the person learning to cook steaks from your guidance specifically?

Telling and teaching are two different things.

[scottyboy]

OH MY GOODNESS J-MIKE IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE VALID FOOTBALL POINTS

and about ALEX SMITH.

and there were JT O'Sullivan and SHAUN HILL name drops.

never change Pro Football thread, never change.

Amidst all this, i will say this, Ness is the only one who's actually made a post with logic on the Alex Smith side. So there's that.

Meanwhile it's ad homs, skewed perspectives, Tom Brady references, bad mouthing 2nd round picks and nobody watching TACKLE blow every statistical argument to smithers with his stats. #boom

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by Ness

Depends on the situation. Is the person learning to cook steaks from your guidance specifically?

Telling and teaching are two different things.

This is also true. So I guess the correct thing to say is, isn't it BOTH our faults then? Bc I'm not teaching you well, and you're not learning either.

But as is in life, if you fail math, ultimately, who's held more accountable, your math teacher or yourself for your shortcomings?

It's always the student's fault at the end of the day.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by vidae

And they still traded him. Shows how much faith they had, considering he was BASICALLY UNSTOPPABLE!

No, because Kaepernick is this new modern, unstoppable force.

Originally Posted by vidae

I said that three days ago, and when I said it, it was true. You want a cookie or something?

It was true TO YOUR EARS, but not others who knew more.
Yeah I'll take a cookie anytime, chocolate chip please.

[vidae]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Really?
I seem to recall seeing interviews after the game with one of your players bitching about this, and hearing commentators talking about it during the game, and after the game.

But I guess you trump all them.

I was at the game. They cheered Brady Quinn warming up because Matt Cassel sucks. They weren't cheering the fact that Matt Cassel got injured.

And I most definitely trump anything you're saying, because you're talking out of your ass. Not that it's different than what you usually do, but today it's extra annoying.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

OH MY GOODNESS J-MIKE IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE VALID FOOTBALL POINTS

and about ALEX SMITH.

and there were JT O'Sullivan and SHAUN HILL name drops.

never change Pro Football thread, never change.

Amidst all this, i will say this, Ness is the only one who's actually made a post with logic on the Alex Smith side. So there's that.

Meanwhile it's ad homs, skewed perspectives, Tom Brady references, bad mouthing 2nd round picks and nobody watching TACKLE blow every statistical argument to smithers with his stats. #boom

I saw TACKLE's post. It was pretty much the nail in the coffin. But I already know what the counter argument is:

BUT IF YOU PUT HIM ON A TEAM WITH A GOOD DEFENSE THAT STAT WONT MATTERZZZZZZ

[vidae]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I saw TACKLE's post. It was pretty much the nail in the coffin. But I already know what the counter argument is:

BUT IF YOU PUT HIM ON A TEAM WITH A GOOD DEFENSE THAT STAT WONT MATTERZZZZZZ

I thought it'd be "WELL OF COURSE IF THE OTHER TEAM SCORES 24 ITLL BE HARD FOR HIM TO WIN DERPPPP"

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by vidae

I thought it'd be "WELL OF COURSE IF THE OTHER TEAM SCORES 24 ITLL BE HARD FOR HIM TO WIN DERPPPP"

Still waiting for a legit argument why he's any different from Cassel.

So far we have 1 guy tell us not all people are exactly the same. And another person is trying to show how Alex Smith's 8 game season was statistically better than anything Cassel did, and even then, it's not much different.

Which would not justify a trade anyway since they're essentially the same statistics with a couple of different sprinkles, but I digress.

So still waiting I guess.

[Ness]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

This is also true. So I guess the correct thing to say is, isn't it BOTH our faults then? Bc I'm not teaching you well, and you're not learning either.

But as is in life, if you fail math, ultimately, who's held more accountable, your math teacher or yourself for your shortcomings?

It's always the student's fault at the end of the day.

Right, but with math you aren't depending on other people's learning skills and performance in order for you to succeed and what you're learning. You're just depending on yourself and the person teaching you. Unfortunately this is the drawback with team sports.

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by Ness

Right, but with math you aren't depending on other people's learning skills and performance in order for you to succeed and what you're learning. You're just depending on yourself and the person teaching you. Unfortunately this is the drawback with team sports.

That's where the intangibles come into play. Leadership skills. Your own ability to teach and command the respect of your peers.

Bc a good qb makes the guys around him better. And Smith does not do that.

If we're taking a group test, as the leader of the group and the guy with the most knowledge, it is my responsibility to not only learn the information, but to also pass that information onto my group members and teach it to them in a way that they learn it as well. And that in itself requires talent.

A qb is essentially an extension of the coaching staff that plays on the field.