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Old 06-04-2013, 09:10 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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He's a freak. The thing is, most people will look at his 6 sacks and say he didn't have a good season, but the man was still a beast out there. He did everything you could ask for except get the sacks basically.

But this is concerning. Back surgery is never a joke. I'm very concerned about this. Also I really hoped he'd get this training camp, as he's still developing and could have used the reps.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Pierre Paul has always been overrated as a pass rusher because of his flukey 16+ sacks in 2011.

He's a slightly above-average pass rusher who plays good run defense on one of the most stacked defensive lines of the past 3 years.

He's not the "freak" or the "beast" that everyone wanted to paint him as after 2011. As pure pass rushers, I'd probably take 10 or more players above him.

If you like good run defenders at DE, he has an edge, but I believe that pass rush is the #1 most important thing a DE has to do in today's NFL, so I'd rather have a better pass rushing DE than a run-stopping DE, so I'd take 10+ players over Pierre Paul.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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I find it hilarious that the 2 players that AcheTen hates: JPP and Earl Thomas, are the 2 players that everyone basically unanimously agrees should have been drafted by the Eagles over Brandon Graham.

Coincidence? I think not.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:38 AM    (permalink
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JPP always has back problems, even when he came in as a rookie.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I find it hilarious that the 2 players that AcheTen hates: JPP and Earl Thomas, are the 2 players that everyone basically unanimously agrees should have been drafted by the Eagles over Brandon Graham.

Coincidence? I think not.
I hate the fact that everyone thinks that we can make definitive statements about three players in only three years after they were drafted.

It takes at least 5+ years to make definitive statements about comparing players. Especially when one of the players suffered a severe injury that stopped him from playing his second season.

If Jason Pierre-Paul sits out this season with his back issues, and Graham goes onto have a 10+ sack season, will we be able to say that Graham will have the better career than Pierre Paul? No, not definitively, because Pierre Paul could always come back and play solidly for years beyond that. SImilarly, just because Graham sat out 2011 and Pierre Paul had a good year it doesn't mean you can just say "Pierre Paul >>>> Graham". Especially when Pierre Paul came back in 2012 and had a mediocre year, while Graham outplayed him in half the snaps.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I hate the fact that everyone thinks that we can make definitive statements about three players in only three years after they were drafted.

It takes at least 5+ years to make definitive statements about comparing players. Especially when one of the players suffered a severe injury that stopped him from playing his second season.

If Jason Pierre-Paul sits out this season with his back issues, and Graham goes onto have a 10+ sack season, will we be able to say that Graham will have the better career than Pierre Paul? No, not definitively, because Pierre Paul could always come back and play solidly for years beyond that. SImilarly, just because Graham sat out 2011 and Pierre Paul had a good year it doesn't mean you can just say "Pierre Paul >>>> Graham". Especially when Pierre Paul came back in 2012 and had a mediocre year, while Graham outplayed him in half the snaps.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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Smith is a solid caretaker qb if you have a talented roster. And that's fine and all, but let's call it what it is, he's a caretaker.

And me personally, I don't want that. It's football pergatory. 8-8 or 10-6 and 1 playoff win doesn't really do anything for me.

You want a championship. I've beaten this dead horse before, so I'll leave it be. But I just don't view Smith as a qb who's capable of winning a championship, and that's why I had a problem with the move.

If you want to establish a winning culture and take steps towards a championship by first getting into respectable territory than Smith is perfectly fine. But groom a guy behind him. Don't make him the face of the franchise.

This is precisely what Andy Reid is doing, I don't understand why so many people have a problem with it, other than grooming a backup. I sure if he saw a backup or franchise QB he would have taken him. The man pretty much drafted a QB every 2-3 years on the Eagles. But he must have realized the utter shiit there was in the draft at QB. Rather than repeat 2-14 season, why the hell not make the team respectable and maybe even a winner?

I understand people saying why not draft a QB, i'm sure if there was one worthy of drafting they would have. But what are the chances that one of this year's rookies QB will take your team to 6-8 wins? We all agree that they have plenty of talent just lacking a good HC and Qb. I say good Qb, which includes a caretaker like Smith. You need him to be good enough, you aren't putting the weight of the franchise on his back.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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Alex Smith sure was good at establishing that winning culture from 2005-2010, huh?

People confuse the role of average players on great teams often. They think that any player, no matter how low-talent they may be, will be impart some of the "winner sauce" when he goes to a bad team. Doesn't work that way.

Just ask every team that overpaid for a Steelers free agent in the past 10 years.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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This is precisely what Andy Reid is doing, I don't understand why so many people have a problem with it, other than grooming a backup. I sure if he saw a backup or franchise QB he would have taken him. The man pretty much drafted a QB every 2-3 years on the Eagles. But he must have realized the utter shiit there was in the draft at QB. Rather than repeat 2-14 season, why the hell not make the team respectable and maybe even a winner?

I understand people saying why not draft a QB, i'm sure if there was one worthy of drafting they would have. But what are the chances that one of this year's rookies QB will take your team to 6-8 wins? We all agree that they have plenty of talent just lacking a good HC and Qb. I say good Qb, which includes a caretaker like Smith. You need him to be good enough, you aren't putting the weight of the franchise on his back.
There were plenty of other QB's of the same caliber who were there to be had for significantly less than what the Chiefs paid for Smith. That is what made it such a bad move. Smith is an average-below average QB who shouldn't be part of any team's long term plan. Instead the Chiefs dropped 1-2 2nd round picks on him, and are going to burn the prime years of their core while Smith mediocres it up.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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For Reid to pass on qbs for 4 rounds tells me he's committed to making Smith the face of the franchise. Which is a pretty terrible idea as far as I'm concerned.

I kind of wish Nassib wasn't a Giant, bc I would have loved to see him play. I like Nassib a lot but we'll never get to see him play bc he's going to be stuck behind Eli for the next 4 years.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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If Smith could bring the 2011-2012 49ers defense, special teams, offensive line, and coaching staff with him, then it would have been an awesome trade.

But alas, the trade only involved a certain noodle-armed game manager who can't win games unless his defense holds the opposing team to less than 17 points and his offensive line is blowing the opposing defensive line off the ball.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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Alex Smith sure was good at establishing that winning culture from 2005-2010, huh?

People confuse the role of average players on great teams often. They think that any player, no matter how low-talent they may be, will be impart some of the "winner sauce" when he goes to a bad team. Doesn't work that way.

Just ask every team that overpaid for a Steelers free agent in the past 10 years.
But they don't want him to establish shiit, other than a handoff, check downs and probably a wide open Bowe. I'm assuming here, since I don't know the inner workings. Then again it is Reid, and Smith might end up throwing it 40+ times.

Its the coach who is trying to establish winning, with a good team, missing pieces here and there.

I don't expect them to make the playoffs or have 10+ wins. But i'm certainly not expecting them to have another 4 wins or less season, or get blown out in the other 8-10 losses.


What kind of coach would want to take a team full of talent, but thats been pretty bad for half a decade now, and 'experiment.' Now if this team was poop, and didn't have talented players, then sure take a gamble on a Qb, can't get much worse
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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But they don't want him to establish shiit, other than a handoff, check downs and probably a wide open Bowe. I'm assuming here, since I don't know the inner workings. Then again it is Reid, and Smith might end up throwing it 40+ times.
This works great if you have a top-5 defense that can shut opposing teams down.

You look pretty stupid handing off and checking down if you're down 14-0 in the second quarter. Ask Alex Smith what it was like playing against the New York Giants.

Then again, who knows, maybe the Chiefs will put it together on defense with Eric Berry, Brandon Flowers, Justin Houston and the rest of the nice young players they have on that side of the ball.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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What I gather from the whole Alex Smith thing is that Reid has been very conservative. Sure there weren't any QBs in this draft he felt comfortable with and it would have been a bigger mistake to take one just to take a QB, but there are other QBs who could have provided similar to what Smith does in the interim that could have been had for a lot less.

Having a competent QB like Smith probably ensures the Chiefs will not be nearly as bad as they were last year and I suppose it could be viewed along the lines of progress being made. However, Smith is almost certainly not the guy who will win a Superbowl in KC. Sometimes you have to luck into a great QB situation, either by having a guy fall in the draft or by sucking enough in a good year for QB prospects.

Giving up possibly 2 second round picks for Alex Smith is a massive bounty for a guy who may never be more than a complimentary piece to an offense. Personally I think Reid looked at the situation and thought if he brings KC back to a middle of the pack team who occassionally make the playoffs he will be viewed as a success, but that really isn't the type of success any HC should be striving for
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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KC isn't your typical 2-14 team either. That team has a lot of talent.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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But they don't want him to establish shiit, other than a handoff, check downs and probably a wide open Bowe. I'm assuming here, since I don't know the inner workings. Then again it is Reid, and Smith might end up throwing it 40+ times.

Its the coach who is trying to establish winning, with a good team, missing pieces here and there.

I don't expect them to make the playoffs or have 10+ wins. But i'm certainly not expecting them to have another 4 wins or less season, or get blown out in the other 8-10 losses.


What kind of coach would want to take a team full of talent, but thats been pretty bad for half a decade now, and 'experiment.' Now if this team was poop, and didn't have talented players, then sure take a gamble on a Qb, can't get much worse
This core has at least won in the past. 3 seasons ago they made the playoffs, and before last year they were around .500. Establishing a 8-8 team does nothing to further them along in their long term goals to be contenders. Rather it just takes away draft picks that could have helped them build that contending team.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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This is a classic short-sighted Andy Reid decision that we've seen over the past 3-4 years in Philly.

He overvalues a certain commodity, and then overpays for it because he feels that he is "running out of time".

Spending over a decade winning 10+ games in Philly year-in and year-out without ever winning the Super Bowl has set off an internal clock in Reid's mind.

He started making these rash decisions after the 2008 season after barely missing the Super Bowl. His slow-and-steady strategy of building in-house with home-grown talent had taken him far enough and he wanted to try the "all-in" strategy instead.

A litany of mistakes would follow: Michael Vick signing, promoting Sean McDermott only to fire him after having a top-10 defense two years straight, signing two washed up former rock-star position coaches to run the OL and DL to the detriment of the other units, drafting a 26-year old OG in the first round because he felt he needed that position badly, signing his former OL coach to run the defense, bringing in a boatload of overpaid and overrated free agents who would poison the locker room with their mercenary attitudes, and so on.

Andy Reid in KC looks to me like an extension of 2009-2012 Andy Reid in Philly.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Drafting undersized De, instead of a safety
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Drafting undersized De, instead of a safety
That wasn't a mistake at all. The defense wasn't bad in 2010, and their problems, whatever they had, weren't because of safety play, but rather cornerback play. And linebacker play.

And Graham is a better DE than Thomas is a FS. If you put Thomas on those Philly defenses, I don't think they're markedly better. Thomas is the least important member of the Seattle secondary, a secondary that wasn't even considered a great unit up until this past season, really.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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Do you ever get sick of being wrong?
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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I would if I actually was wrong, but you can't disprove anything I say.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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That wasn't a mistake at all. The defense wasn't bad in 2010, and their problems, whatever they had, weren't because of safety play, but rather cornerback play. And linebacker play.

And Graham is a better DE than Thomas is a FS. If you put Thomas on those Philly defenses, I don't think they're markedly better. Thomas is the least important member of the Seattle secondary, a secondary that wasn't even considered a great unit up until this past season, really.
Ahm, what?
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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That wasn't a mistake at all. The defense wasn't bad in 2010, and their problems, whatever they had, weren't because of safety play, but rather cornerback play. And linebacker play.

And Graham is a better DE than Thomas is a FS. If you put Thomas on those Philly defenses, I don't think they're markedly better. Thomas is the least important member of the Seattle secondary, a secondary that wasn't even considered a great unit up until this past season, really.
Do you remember what the concerns for Chancellor, Sherman, and Browner were coming into the NFL? If you do you'd realize why Thomas is so valuable to that secondary. Those concerns didn't magically disappear for all 3 of them.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Ahm, what?
Graham is better at what he does - rushing the passer and setting the edge against the run - than Thomas is at what he does - covering TEs/WRs and tackling RBs.

It's as simple as that. Tape study will back up this point, as will statistics. If you want to just say "OMG YOU ARE TEH STUPIDZ SEAHAWKS DEFENSE WAS SO GOOD HOW CAN THIS BE TRUE", well then, you are daft, because you haven't studied both players and the roles they play in their respective defenses, and their impact as individual contributors.

The Seahawks defense was far better than the Eagles defense last year, but Thomas' role in that defense was perhaps the least important of any of the starters, and definitely the least valuable impact of any of the DBs. Thomas has few responsibilites in Seattle's press man coverage scheme that features elite press coverage on both edges (Browner and Sherman) that takes pressure off Thomas in coverage, and he plays alongside a beastly run-stopping box safety (Chancellor) that takes pressure off Thomas in the run game and he did play with an elite pass rush (Irvin, Clemons, etc) for most of the season that takes pressure off him needing to cover for long periods of time.

Graham, on the other hand, was the best pass rusher on the Eagles, and the best pass rusher on a Pass Rush Productivity level (hits+hurries+sacks per snap) in the entire NFL. He also played solid run defense. The fact that he played on a team with two starting CBs who completely quit on the coach and the team, and played alongside an offense that turned the ball over at a historical rate and forced the defense to be on the field for long periods of time, shouldn't color your evaluation of each player individually.
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