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Old 06-05-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Why do you think there is the Yards Per Attempt stat for QBs and RBs? Yards per reception for WRs?
Because the NFL has been selling fantasy football to hook casual fans so that they can continue to expand their absolutely massive money fountain. Or did you want to pretend like numbers are the end all, be all for offensive play as well? Which is admittedly less completely ******** than with defensive play, but is still plenty stupid.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
But we are looking at individual talent.

Individual performance.

The most important thing is how good a player is; how efficient he is.

What can he accomplish in 10 snaps? In 20 snaps? In a 100 snaps?



No, production per snap. Football is a game of snaps. Plays.



Per snap. Per snap. Please read.



You're totally wrong. We look at stats on a per play basis.

Why do you think there is the Yards Per Attempt stat for QBs and RBs? Yards per reception for WRs?
Right. Exactly. We're looking at who's more productive individually. Player A was more productive per game than Player B. Therefore he's more productive individually.

For example, player A if player A had more sacks in week 6 than Player B in week 6, then player A was more productive that game. Therefore he had a better game, in essence, a better week, and if we extrapolate that result over the course of 16 weeks, he had a better year.

So because player A, over the course of a 16 game season, was better per game, he had a better season.

We agree on this. I don't know why you're making a big deal out of something we agree on.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
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If we just looked at total production, regardless of snaps, and ignored snaps, we would say that someone like Cameron wake was unworthy of being made a full time player because he did less than someone who played twice as many snaps.

But Wake was moved to a full time role partly because of how EFFICIENT he was in limited snaps, and now he's one of the best players in the NFL.

The same thing applies to Graham.
What made Wake a fulltime player wasn't his efficiency, but his play and talent.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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If Graham was a top-ten pass rusher in the NFL he would start! He would play more than 42% of the defensive snaps. Oh I forgot. The Eagles coaching staff is so dumb that they kept a great pass rusher on the bench because they love an inferior Jason Babin so much more. But hey, he is gone now so I'm sure next year Graham will break out and get 20 sacks in 2013. But what if he doesn't? What is your excuse then?
If you are the DL coach of the Eagles in 2012, and Jason Babin is coming off a friggin' 16+ sack season, and Babin is your PERSONAL FRIEND, who took you and your family with him to Hawaii for the Pro Bowl, would you just flat-out bench him completely for a guy who you know nothing about, who is COMING OFF AN ACL INJURY REHAB?

It'd be insane for Washburn to give Graham 100% of the snaps in that situation. Even if Graham was a better player than Babin at that point. It's actually a minor miracle that Graham got any snaps at all.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
What made Wake a fulltime player wasn't his efficiency, but his play and talent.
Play/talent = efficiency.

Talent is reflected in efficiency.

A talented pizza maker makes pizzas faster than an lesser talented one. Even if he spends 4 hours at his job, he'll make each pizza faster than the guy who works 8 hours.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...big-last-year/

More proof JPP was doubled a ton.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Right. Exactly. We're looking at who's more productive individually. Player A was more productive per game than Player B. Therefore he's more productive individually.

For example, player A if player A had more sacks in week 6 than Player B in week 6, then player A was more productive that game. Therefore he had a better game, in essence, a better week, and if we extrapolate that result over the course of 16 weeks, he had a better year.

So because player A, over the course of a 16 game season, was better per game, he had a better season.

We agree on this. I don't know why you're making a big deal out of something we agree on.
Where in this latest post is any mention of plays or snaps?

You can keep ignoring that main point, but you look increasingly stupid for doing so.

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"La la la I'm sticking my fingers in my ears! I can't hear you!"
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Play/talent = efficiency.

Talent is reflected in efficiency.

A talented pizza maker makes pizzas faster than an lesser talented one. Even if he spends 4 hours at his job, he'll make each pizza faster than the guy who works 8 hours.
Who's more talented the pizza maker who puts those numbers up for a whole year having to use a lighter to make the pizzas, or the pizza makers who's just a stoner with some frozen pizzas and a state of the art oven and puts those numbers up in one night? Your thinking ignores those factors when those factors tell us far more than the raw numbers they result in.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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The most important thing is how good a player is; how efficient he is.
What can he accomplish in 10 snaps? In 20 snaps? In a 100 snaps?
No, production per snap. Football is a game of snaps. Plays.
Per snap. Per snap. Please read.
You're totally wrong. We look at stats on a per play basis.
Why do you think there is the Yards Per Attempt stat for QBs and RBs? Yards per reception for WRs?
This is just completely false. LaDainian Tomlinson averages 11.92 yards per pass attempt. Tom Brady averages 7.5. Tomlinson is a more efficient passer, so is he better?

Tim Tebow averages a rushing TD every 16.4 carries. Adrian Peterson averages a TD every 23.1 carries. Tebow is a more efficient runner, is he better?

Jon Baldwin averages 16.3 yards per reception in 2013. Calvin Johnson only averages 16.1. Baldwin had 1 TD per 20 receptions. Johnson only had a TD every 24.4 receptions. Baldwin is a more efficient receiver, is he better?
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Who's more talented the pizza maker who puts those numbers up for a whole year having to use a lighter to make the pizzas, or the pizza makers who's just a stoner with some frozen pizzas and a state of the art oven and puts those numbers up in one night? Your thinking ignores those factors when those factors tell us far more than the raw numbers they result in.
We are assuming that they are both making pizzas the traditional way. Both Graham and Pierre Paul played DE in a 4-3 scheme. Same what you want about double teams or the Wide-9, but blocking is blocking and beating OTs is the same regardless, and double teams are vastly overstated.

In our comparision, Graham is working with an electric oven and Pierre Paul is perhaps working with a wood-fired oven.

Maybe the electric oven is a tad faster or cooks more evenly, but it's not a huge difference like your stoner example with the frozen pizzas.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Man that's the best!
With this ranch dressing too.
Playing Part time means you are never tired right?
Lets see what happens to BG if he plays all snaps and actually has the other teams attention.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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We are assuming that they are both making pizzas the traditional way. Both Graham and Pierre Paul played DE in a 4-3 scheme. Same what you want about double teams or the Wide-9, but blocking is blocking and beating OTs is the same regardless, and double teams are vastly overstated.

In our comparision, Graham is working with an electric oven and Pierre Paul is perhaps working with a wood-fired oven.

Maybe the electric oven is a tad faster or cooks more evenly, but it's not a huge difference like your stoner example with the frozen pizzas.
But they're not and you just choosing to ignore that is hilarious.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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This is just completely false. LaDainian Tomlinson averages 11.92 yards per pass attempt. Tom Brady averages 7.5. Tomlinson is a more efficient passer, so is he better?
SMALL SAMPLE SIZE ALERT!

Comparing a RB with a handful of career passes to a QB with thousands of passes.... Not going to work.

In the Graham/ Pierre Paul comparison, we are comparing a sample size of 400 some snaps to 800 some snaps. Bigger more accurate sample size.

Quote:
Tim Tebow averages a rushing TD every 16.4 carries. Adrian Peterson averages a TD every 23.1 carries. Tebow is a more efficient runner, is he better?

Jon Baldwin averages 16.3 yards per reception in 2013. Calvin Johnson only averages 16.1. Baldwin had 1 TD per 20 receptions. Johnson only had a TD every 24.4 receptions. Baldwin is a more efficient receiver, is he better?

Again, small sample size. My sample sizes are 400+ snaps and 800+ snaps.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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But they're not and you just choosing to ignore that is hilarious.
Explain why not.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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How can getting doubled doesn't factor in this?
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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So we're not allowed to use sample size concerns when we're talking about your guy, but you are? Love the hypocrizing.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Explain why not.
Why? You'll just ignore it again anyway.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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One guy has made 8.5 pizzas. The other has made 27.5 pizzas. Seems pretty clear to me who is better. Please make up more excuses why 8.5>27.5
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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So we're not allowed to use sample size concerns when we're talking about your guy, but you are? Love the hypocrizing.
How are 400+ snaps and 800+ snaps small sample sizes?

That's more than adequate to draw conclusions about it.

The Tomlinson vs. Brady example is ridiculous beause Tomlinson attempted 12 freaking passes in his entire 11 year career. Tom Brady has attempted 5958 passes in his career.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Where in this latest post is any mention of plays or snaps?

You can keep ignoring that main point, but you look increasingly stupid for doing so.

BBD impression:

"La la la I'm sticking my fingers in my ears! I can't hear you!"
There are X amount of snaps per game.

There are X amount of snaps per year.

Therefore, whoever has more production per year is more productive. Because the snap occurs whether the player is playing during that snap or not. The snap itself is irrelevant, all that matters is how productive you were per game.

That's exactly why Watt is better than Graham, JPP is better than Graham, etc

For example, if Player A makes 14 million per year, and player B makes 8 mill per year, Player A is richer than player B.

It doesn't matter what their hourly rate was. Because at the end of the year, the total salary determines who's richer.

You don't determine wealth on a per/hour basis. Same with production.

I don't understand why you're arguing a point we both agree on...
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
One guy has made 8.5 pizzas. The other has made 27.5 pizzas. Seems pretty clear to me who is better. Please make up more excuses why 8.5>27.5
The guy with 8.5 pizzas worked for only a month at the pizza shop due to external circumstances while the guy with 27.5 pizzas has been working there for a whole year.

Which worker, assuming good health and working ability for both, would you bank on being more productive going into the future?

The guy that pumped out 8.5 pizzas in a month of work or a guy who took a whole year just to make 27.5 pizzas?

There's a good chance that the guy with 8.5 pizzas in a month of work could come close to making 102 pizzas (8.5*12) if he works the full year. Maybe not exactly that many, but probably far more than 27.5 pizzas.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post

Again, small sample size. My sample sizes are 400+ snaps and 800+ snaps.
Tim Tebow had 122 carries in 2011 where he averaged 5.4 yards per carry. Adrian Peterson had 208 carries in 2011 where he averaged 4.7 yards per carry. Tebow had 58.6% of the carries Peterson had. Graham had 48.2% of the snaps JPP had. So actually, my sample size is better than yours.

Jonathan Baldwin played 542 snaps in 2012. Calvin Johnson played 1152. That is 47%. So it is slightly worse than your comparison, but just barely.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
There are X amount of snaps per game.

There are X amount of snaps per year.

Therefore, whoever has more production per year is more productive. Because the snap occurs whether the player is playing during that snap or not. The snap itself is irrelevant, all that matters is how productive you were per game.
Snap itself is irrelevant? Why do we even bother keeping per snap or per play records if they're irrelevant?

It's not like a football game is actually comprised of SNAPS, or anything.

Wow, the football snap is irrelevant! Amazing logic there, BBD. Bravo.

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That's exactly why Watt is better than Graham, JPP is better than Graham, etc

For example, if Player A makes 14 million per year, and player B makes 8 mill per year, Player A is richer than player B.

It doesn't matter what their hourly rate was. Because at the end of the year, the total salary determines who's richer.

You don't determine wealth on a per/hour basis. Same with production.

I don't understand why you're arguing a point we both agree on...
You evaluate talent on a per/play or per/snap basis. Because we are talking about the future here and about TALENT LEVEL, not total PAST production.

I don't understand why you don't understand basic math or basic concepts of talent evaluation.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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Tim Tebow had 122 carries in 2011 where he averaged 5.4 yards per carry. Adrian Peterson had 208 carries in 2011 where he averaged 4.7 yards per carry. Tebow had 58.6% of the carries Peterson had. Graham had 48.2% of the snaps JPP had. So actually, my sample size is better than yours.
Wait, so 122 and 208 carries are a better sample size collection than 400+ snaps and 800+ snaps?

And you fail to mention that they also played different positions. Tebow was the QB, whereas Peterson was the RB.

It's well known in the NFL that historically, rushing averages for QBs are far higher than for RBs because the QB has a built-in advantage on scrambles.

Comparing Graham to Pierre Paul is far more of an accurate comparison because both played 4-3 DE.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why you don't understand basic math or basic concepts of talent evaluation.
Says we don't understand basic math concepts, ignores examples where we use the same exact math concepts to prove ridiculous things (Jon Baldwin better than Calvin Johnson. Tebow better than Adrian Peterson).

Says we don't understand talent evaluation, ignores differences in defensive schemes and offensive gameplans.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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