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Old 06-05-2013, 07:57 PM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I wouldn't be shocked if Baldwin even outplays Johnson in the future.
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Cudders just skeeted all over this thread.
Vidae, I want to make sure you see this prediction.
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Bortlezzzzzzz
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin. †One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one. †Awesome. †Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks.†
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't be shocked if Baldwin even outplays Johnson in the future.
Yeah, when Johnson retires, if Baldwin is still in the league, I bet he'll outplay him then.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
Yeah, when Johnson retires, if Baldwin is still in the league, I bet he'll outplay him then.
Baldwin will be out of the league long before Johnson retires.
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Bortlezzzzzzz
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin. †One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one. †Awesome. †Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks.†
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:20 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
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Well, that was fun.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:41 AM    (permalink
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I don't know if those numbers are completely accurate
Come on. What do I have to gain from massaging those numbers on an internet forum? Nothing. I donít have an incentive to lie. You cried groupthink. You proceeded to dismiss the notion of scheming against a defensive end as ďnebulousĒ and ďunsubstantiatedĒ. I supplied an actual piece of information that contradicts that statement. YouÖdismiss it as inaccurate because it doesnít support Brandon Graham?

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Assuming that the game charting is correct, what it tells me is that in ONE game, an offensive coordinator decided to game plan in such a way that the TEs were actively engaged in chip blocking the DEs.
And what would compel an offensive coordinator thatís quite familiar with the Giantsí defensive personnel to use his tight ends to chip defensive ends? Could it be cognizance of the threat that a premier pass rusher poses? It wasnít Osi that attracted the attention of the Eagles coaching staff. It wasnít Tuck that attracted the attention of the Eagles coaching staff. It was JPP.

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If I remember correctly, that game was the one in which the Eagles ran the ball uncharacteristically heavily with LeSean McCoy, and basically avoided the passing game.
I believe the run:pass ratio in the first half was 3:5 including quarterback scrambles.

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Again, small sample sizes like this are misleading. That particular game was a specific game plan that the Eagles had for that team. You can't draw conclusions about Pierre Paul's entire season based on one game plan by the Eagles to run the ball heavily in a tight, low-scoring contest.
Wait.

Your entire argument revolves around smaller sample sizes being extrapolated to their proportionate conclusion to measure production, but *this* small sample size is too misleading to even deem somewhat notable?

Youíll never find me arguing that the Eaglesí exact protection schemes in this game can be extrapolated to each Giant opponent or that these percentages are ultra-accurate reflections of JPPís and Grahamís entire season in this regard. It is what it is. One half of football. But itís a half of football with coaches that are familiar with their opposing personnel. And, in that half, the Eagles were much more concerned with JPP than the Giants were with Graham. Itís not a flawless data set, sure, but itís something of substance.

Also, to be honest, I was quite lenient with what I counted as an OG chip with Graham, too. It was 1st & 10 with less than a minute left in the second quarter and the Eagles ran a DT/DE stunt. Landri looped outside and Graham twisted inside, but Boothe engaged Graham just before Beatty passed him off, so I counted it. Even still, at best, Graham faced ďtwoĒ blockers on 12.5% of his snaps and JPP faced ďtwoĒ blockers on 46.7% of his snaps. While seeing more snaps. Thatís sizeable.

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You need to break down the blocking schemes for basically every single game both players played in 2012 before we can even begin to discuss whether or not coordinators "game planned" against Pierre Paul more so than Graham, and even then, the fact that Pierre Paul may have been chip-blocked by a TE slightly more often than Graham doesn't mean that Pierre Paul's job was astronomically more difficult.
YeahÖIím not going to do that.

Thereís a big difference between taking 40-60 minutes to chart a half and investing the amount of time that itíd take to chart two seasonís worth of protections. Because, if we wanted to draw the discussion toward those kind of technical elements in search of a concrete answer, weíre talking about charting a lot more than just JPPís or Grahamís season. Thatís the launching point. After charting their season, the next step would be charting a good block of each of their opponentís games. Somewhere in the four to eight game neighborhood. You could cross-reference common opponents, but itís still going to add a lot of games. Then, once thatís finished, their protection tendencies versus the Giants would need to be juxtaposed against their protection tendencies versus other opponents. You would use that to calculate the degree of ďgame-planningĒ JPP faces, find similar defensive ends based on protection percentages, etc. And thatís not even considering the process of differentiating. Should a one-on-one block from Joe Thomas mean more than a one-on-one block from, for example, JíMarcus Webb? Should a chip from Rob Gronkowski mean more than a chip from, say, Brandon Myers?

Even if I did, it isnít like the numbers that I came back with would be believed. Iím confident enough in what Iíve seen and what Iíve posted to believe that JPP gets more attention than Brandon Graham. Thatís not even an outlandish remark.

As for the second point, itís the concept of attrition. JPP sees the field more often and faces more strenuous matchups when he does. Thatís going to affect production. Even in one-on-one situations, rushing the passer is hard. Itís the reason that big-time pass rushers demand big-time contracts. Now add another blocker to that equation. Instead of just beating the tackle across from them, pass rushers have to concern themselves with possible doubles. In JPP and Grahamís case, bending the edge is much harder when a tight end hems the arc or interrupts explosion altogether.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:03 AM    (permalink
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Come on Cudders get out of here with your logic, reasoning and proof. Do you not realise that Brandon Graham had almost the same production as JPP in half the snaps? Who cares how he got it because statzzz matter, how they came about doesn't
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:43 AM    (permalink
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My only question...

Why not do just that... TO PROVE YOUR POINT, as opposed to demanding others do it to prove theirs?
Simple really, what he would find on those tapes would disprove his point completely.
If someone actually did it and concluded what everyone knows, that JPP is being double teamed much, much more than Graham, he will simply respond with his ridicoulous "Well, doubleteams doesnīt mean a thing"-tantrum.

Its the AcheTen-theorem; Always act like youīre right, no matter how wrong you are.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:44 AM    (permalink
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I love you Cudders.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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I love Cudders bc he actually takes the time to form great arguments.

Nowadays I'm just lazy, and half ass it bc I don't see the point in me spending so much energy trying to explain things. Cudders basically does all the legwork for us.

I <3 you Cudders.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Come on. What do I have to gain from massaging those numbers on an internet forum? Nothing. I donít have an incentive to lie. You cried groupthink. You proceeded to dismiss the notion of scheming against a defensive end as ďnebulousĒ and ďunsubstantiatedĒ. I supplied an actual piece of information that contradicts that statement. YouÖdismiss it as inaccurate because it doesnít support Brandon Graham?
I'll have to implicitly trust your game charting stats, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has skewed data, even slightly, to support a viewpoint of theirs or to make someone else look foolish. You have a lot to gain by falsifying data.


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And what would compel an offensive coordinator thatís quite familiar with the Giantsí defensive personnel to use his tight ends to chip defensive ends? Could it be cognizance of the threat that a premier pass rusher poses? It wasnít Osi that attracted the attention of the Eagles coaching staff. It wasnít Tuck that attracted the attention of the Eagles coaching staff. It was JPP.
How do you know it wasn't Osi or Tuck? The Eagles have been scheming against Osi and Tuck since the 2006 season when Winston Justice was embarassed by Osi Umenyiora on national TV.

Andy Reid has stated as much in his post-game shows and press conferences: he fears Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora as a tandem, and in Giants games they scheme not against any one particular player, but against the bookend of DEs that the Giants throw at them, and the NASCAR package of four DEs in particular.

Andy Reid's gameplan in that game was simply to run the ball at all costs. Per (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...209300phi.htm), the Eagles had 36 rushing attempts and only 30 passing attempts, which is contrary to what they usually do. Their gameplan wasn't to specifically neuter any single DE, but to force the Giants entire DLine to play the run all game long and to take them out of the 4 DE package on 3rd downs, and hope that the game was tightly contested til the end, which it was.



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I believe the run:pass ratio in the first half was 3:5 including quarterback scrambles.
36 rushing attempts, 30 passing attempts. And if you watched the game, you'd notice that most of the passing attempts were bootlegs and play-action, which further supports the notion that the gameplan itself was simply to run the ball heavily, and not to scheme (pass protection wise) against any one particular DE of the Giants.


Quote:
Wait.

Your entire argument revolves around smaller sample sizes being extrapolated to their proportionate conclusion to measure production, but *this* small sample size is too misleading to even deem somewhat notable?
400+ snaps is not a small sample size.

One game featuring maybe 20 or so pass rush opportunities for a full-time starter is, however, a much smaller sample size. And then you factor in the fact that one specific game-plan for this game does not apply to the rest of the games the Giants played that year.

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Youíll never find me arguing that the Eaglesí exact protection schemes in this game can be extrapolated to each Giant opponent or that these percentages are ultra-accurate reflections of JPPís and Grahamís entire season in this regard. It is what it is. One half of football. But itís a half of football with coaches that are familiar with their opposing personnel. And, in that half, the Eagles were much more concerned with JPP than the Giants were with Graham. Itís not a flawless data set, sure, but itís something of substance.
It's almost completely worthless in the context of this argument. You are talking about ONE HALF of a particular game, which featured a particular gameplan against a particular defensive line. It's ludicrious to even begin to extrapolate long-term conclusions about individual players based on one half of football in a unique game. It is NOT, however, ludicrous to extrapolate talent evaluation out of trends unearthed in 400+ snap sample sizes.



Quote:
Also, to be honest, I was quite lenient with what I counted as an OG chip with Graham, too. It was 1st & 10 with less than a minute left in the second quarter and the Eagles ran a DT/DE stunt. Landri looped outside and Graham twisted inside, but Boothe engaged Graham just before Beatty passed him off, so I counted it. Even still, at best, Graham faced ďtwoĒ blockers on 12.5% of his snaps and JPP faced ďtwoĒ blockers on 46.7% of his snaps. While seeing more snaps. Thatís sizeable.
That's wonderful. So not only is this a tiny sample size featuring a non-traditional, unique gameplan, but you've also admitted to harboring an inherent bias because you are opposed to my argument and wanted to bring forth "evidence" that I'm wrong. When you need a nail, everything begins to look like a hammer. To even BEGIN to consider game charting such as this as "evidence" in this argument, we need an impartial third party to do the charting, and then we need much more than just the first half of an Eagles - Giants tilt early in the season.


Quote:
YeahÖIím not going to do that.

Thereís a big difference between taking 40-60 minutes to chart a half and investing the amount of time that itíd take to chart two seasonís worth of protections. Because, if we wanted to draw the discussion toward those kind of technical elements in search of a concrete answer, weíre talking about charting a lot more than just JPPís or Grahamís season. Thatís the launching point. After charting their season, the next step would be charting a good block of each of their opponentís games. Somewhere in the four to eight game neighborhood. You could cross-reference common opponents, but itís still going to add a lot of games. Then, once thatís finished, their protection tendencies versus the Giants would need to be juxtaposed against their protection tendencies versus other opponents. You would use that to calculate the degree of ďgame-planningĒ JPP faces, find similar defensive ends based on protection percentages, etc. And thatís not even considering the process of differentiating. Should a one-on-one block from Joe Thomas mean more than a one-on-one block from, for example, JíMarcus Webb? Should a chip from Rob Gronkowski mean more than a chip from, say, Brandon Myers?
You know, Footballoutsiders.com charts games as well. Maybe you could look them up.

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Even if I did, it isnít like the numbers that I came back with would be believed. Iím confident enough in what Iíve seen and what Iíve posted to believe that JPP gets more attention than Brandon Graham. Thatís not even an outlandish remark.
You're absolutely a fool that should not be taken seriously if you truly believe that charting one half of one game is enough to buttress a counter-argument to the point that I'm making about Graham and Pierre Paul.

Quote:
As for the second point, itís the concept of attrition. JPP sees the field more often and faces more strenuous matchups when he does. Thatís going to affect production. Even in one-on-one situations, rushing the passer is hard. Itís the reason that big-time pass rushers demand big-time contracts. Now add another blocker to that equation. Instead of just beating the tackle across from them, pass rushers have to concern themselves with possible doubles. In JPP and Grahamís case, bending the edge is much harder when a tight end hems the arc or interrupts explosion altogether.
You're simply overstating the attrition point. It's not as if, just because he plays, say, 300 more snaps, that Graham will completely fall apart and fall off the map. He's not even 30 years old yet. I could see this argument for someone like a John abraham, but Graham is young enough and athletic enough that unless he completely ignores his conditioning during his workouts, he will be able to maintain an adequate pace. Again, he may not perfectly replicate his performance over the rest of the 800+ snaps if he played a full season, but he'd probably replicate at least 70-80% of it, which would be enough to vastly out-produce Pierre-Paul.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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Not to jump in and restate something... but people get caught up in sacks and what not.... there is alot more to playing DE than just sacks...being able to set the edge in the running game is very important also, so while JPP didnt put up huge "numbers" im sure he did other things very well to have played as much as he did.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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So in summation, Cudders' "data" basically just shows that:

- For one half of football in late September 2012, Andy Reid decided to run the ball down the Giants' throats.
- This was part of a game-long plan of running the ball heavily instead of dropping back and passing.
- Part of "running the ball" involved using TEs to set the edge for the RB.
- Jason Pierre Paul was on the field for a number of plays in which he was blocked by TEs and OTs in the run game.
- In that same game, the Giants decided to pass more heavily, and featured less TE blocking.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Not to jump in and restate something... but people get caught up in sacks and what not.... there is alot more to playing DE than just sacks...being able to set the edge in the running game is very important also, so while JPP didnt put up huge "numbers" im sure he did other things very well to have played as much as he did.
Pierre Paul is a good run defender, no doubt, but he's not much better than Graham. Maybe slightly better, but not dramatically so.

The most important thing in the NFL is pass defense. If you gave me a choice between a great run defender who is average against the pass, or a great pass rusher who is average against the run, I'll take the latter every day.

Graham is a great pass rusher who is above-average against the run (not a liability). Pierre Paul is a very good run defender who is only average as a pass rusher.

That's why Graham is a more valuable player.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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AcheTen should get the ban hammer just on the pure premise that he's wasting Cudders time.

<3 Cudders
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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I think it depends on the players around them... if you have say a Von Miller playing along side of someone that is a very good run defender that is a great situation...

Because whether pass defense is more important or not... if you have nothing but pass rushers running against that front will prove to be the plan of action..ideally you want someone that is not a liability against the run or pass.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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We've got one guy (JPP) who's taking 83% of the defensive snaps, as well as 18% of the special teams snaps. Compared to Graham who had 40% of the defensive snaps and 4% of special teams snaps.

Do you really expect a guy with twice as many snaps to produce the same productivity?

Jared Allen, widely regarded as one of the best 43 DEs in the league finished way down on PFFs list.

I don't understand the people that don't watch games and then use PFF to support their claims. PFF is a fine statistical source, but there's just too many variables that are not counted and there's no way (from what I've researched) to determine their exact criteria.

I've heard they don't count half sacks, they count them as whole. They don't care if a Trent Cole flushed the QB into the arms of Brandon Graham who was engulfed by a RT. I personally, hold no value to PFF in a real football discussion

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Old 06-06-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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We've got one guy (JPP) who's taking 83% of the defensive snaps, as well as 18% of the special teams snaps. Compared to Graham who had 40% of the defensive snaps and 4% of special teams snaps.

Do you really expect a guy with twice as many snaps to produce the same productivity?
Yes, because guys like Cameron Wake and JJ Watt and numerous others produced far more in 800+ snaps than Pierre Paul did, and I see no reason why Graham could not do the same if given the opportunity.

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Jared Allen, widely regarded as one of the best 43 DEs in the league finished way down on PFFs list.

I don't understand the people that don't watch games and then use PFF to support their claims. PFF is a fine statistical source, but there's just too many variables that are not counted and there's no way (from what I've researched) to determine their exact criteria.

I've heard they don't count half sacks, they count them as whole. They don't care if a Trent Cole flushed the QB into the arms of Brandon Graham who was engulfed by a RT. I personally, hold no value to PFF in a real football discussion
Well then you're behind the curve, and like most dinosaurs, you will be left behind.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Well then you're behind the curve, and like most dinosaurs, you will be left behind.
PFF once said that Blaine Gabbert was in the top third of QBs when given 2.6 seconds or more to thrown. It's hard to take something seriously when they say Blaine Gabbert is in the top third of anything other than ******** his own pants.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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No real point to argue anymore, AcheTen will just create another account once proven wrong.

"The Giants will not win 1 playoff game this year"

"Oh Brent Grimes is out, they'll beat the falcons" (never mind the falcons offense scored 0 points against the Giants that game)

"Luckiest superbowl winner ever"
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Well then you're behind the curve, and like most dinosaurs, you will be left behind.
At least I'm not the one making an idiot out of myself
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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I'll have to implicitly trust your game charting stats, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has skewed data, even slightly, to support a viewpoint of theirs or to make someone else look foolish. You have a lot to gain by falsifying data.
I still fail to see how I have a lot to gain from misleading a message board. Itís the internet. Some people are going to agree with me. Some people arenít. Thatís fine. Thatís how it goes. I donít care enough to embellish to prove a point.

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How do you know it wasn't Osi or Tuck? The Eagles have been scheming against Osi and Tuck since the 2006 season when Winston Justice was embarassed by Osi Umenyiora on national TV.
Yes, Howard Mudd, who wasnít even with Philadelphia then, walked into the Eaglesí facilities during preparation and popped in the 2007* Week 4 Eagles vs. Giants tape so he could watch prime Osi manhandle a rookie offensive tackle that isnít even on the roster. Then let that matchup dictate all of his protections.

I know what I saw.

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Andy Reid has stated as much in his post-game shows and press conferences: he fears Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora as a tandem, and in Giants games they scheme not against any one particular player, but against the bookend of DEs that the Giants throw at them, and the NASCAR package of four DEs in particular.
Well, hold on. A handful of pages back, FUNBUNCHER brought up Mike Shanahanís respect for JPP in terms of the protections he demands from the Redskins. You dismissed it as banal coach speak. Just meaningless radio drivel. What makes Reidís evaluations more veritable? More worthwhile?

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Andy Reid's gameplan in that game was simply to run the ball at all costs. Per (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...209300phi.htm), the Eagles had 36 rushing attempts and only 30 passing attempts, which is contrary to what they usually do. Their gameplan wasn't to specifically neuter any single DE, but to force the Giants entire DLine to play the run all game long and to take them out of the 4 DE package on 3rd downs, and hope that the game was tightly contested til the end, which it was.
Except I didnít chart the entire game. I charted the first half. These numbers are irrelevant in that window. Because, in the first half, the Eagles passed the ball more times than running it. You are attempting to paint a picture for the sample that just isnít accurate.

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36 rushing attempts, 30 passing attempts. And if you watched the game, you'd notice that most of the passing attempts were bootlegs and play-action, which further supports the notion that the gameplan itself was simply to run the ball heavily, and not to scheme (pass protection wise) against any one particular DE of the Giants.
First, if I watched the game? Youíre going to pull that card?

Second, I didnít chart the entire game. I charted the first half. And, again, in the first half, the Eagles didnít feature the run. The Eagles ran the ball about 40% of the time (including quarterback runs) and threw it about 60% of the time. You can stop grasping at that straw.

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400+ snaps is not a small sample size.
Itís not a conclusive one either.

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One game featuring maybe 20 or so pass rush opportunities for a full-time starter is, however, a much smaller sample size. And then you factor in the fact that one specific game-plan for this game does not apply to the rest of the games the Giants played that year.
I never claimed that their protections were applicable to another teamís. Iím aware that teams have different approaches when it comes to scheming and Iím aware thereís a margin of error with that chart. Iíve supplied something of substance though, limited as it might be. Youíve maintained the assertion that Brandon Graham is just as feared as JPP without evidence.

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It's almost completely worthless in the context of this argument. You are talking about ONE HALF of a particular game, which featured a particular gameplan against a particular defensive line. It's ludicrious to even begin to extrapolate long-term conclusions about individual players based on one half of football in a unique game. It is NOT, however, ludicrous to extrapolate talent evaluation out of trends unearthed in 400+ snap sample sizes.
Nor have I ever claimed that the data was representative of their entire seasons. I was clear in defining the data. It was the results of one half of football. Results that featured noticeable protection discrepancies.

And this isnít talent evaluation. Letís get that clear.

This is spreadsheet evaluation. Youíre looking at numbers that a formula spits out without context and trusting its methodologies. I havenít seen an actual evaluation of Brandon Graham. One that revolves around defining Grahamís skill set and highlighting the core traits that make him superior to JPP.

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That's wonderful. So not only is this a tiny sample size featuring a non-traditional, unique gameplan, but you've also admitted to harboring an inherent bias because you are opposed to my argument and wanted to bring forth "evidence" that I'm wrong. When you need a nail, everything begins to look like a hammer. To even BEGIN to consider game charting such as this as "evidence" in this argument, we need an impartial third party to do the charting, and then we need much more than just the first half of an Eagles - Giants tilt early in the season.
Yes, Iím so biased that I gave the subject that Iím arguing against the benefit of the doubt...

I liked Brandon Graham quite a bit coming out of college. I gave him a definite first-round grade and thought he went to a good situation in Philadelphia. I donít hate him and Iím not out to get him.

I donít support the Giants. I donít support the Eagles.

Whereís the overwhelming bias?

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You're absolutely a fool that should not be taken seriously if you truly believe that charting one half of one game is enough to buttress a counter-argument to the point that I'm making about Graham and Pierre Paul.
What I said:

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Iím confident enough in what Iíve seen and what Iíve posted to believe that JPP gets more attention than Brandon Graham.
Two parts. First part, what Iíve seen. Thatís cumulative. Iím not basing an opinion on the merits of one half. Iím basing it on a lot more than that.

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You're simply overstating the attrition point. It's not as if, just because he plays, say, 300 more snaps, that Graham will completely fall apart and fall off the map. He's not even 30 years old yet. I could see this argument for someone like a John abraham, but Graham is young enough and athletic enough that unless he completely ignores his conditioning during his workouts, he will be able to maintain an adequate pace. Again, he may not perfectly replicate his performance over the rest of the 800+ snaps if he played a full season, but he'd probably replicate at least 70-80% of it, which would be enough to vastly out-produce Pierre-Paul.
Supposing that I concede those counter percentages, thatís last season. But what about the season before that? The season where JPP had 16.5 sacks? Even if we double Grahamís snap count last season, and extrapolate his production to the proportionate conclusion, heís still not sniffing the 16.5 sack mark, and thatís pure production, which seems to be all that matters.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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You're absolutely a fool that should not be taken seriously if you truly believe that charting one half of one game is enough to buttress a counter-argument to the point that I'm making about Graham and Pierre Paul.
There is a fool that should not be taken seriously.

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Old 06-06-2013, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Cudders might be the best poster on this board. Every argument is well thought out, well explained, and he actually puts in time to form valid opinions. Cudders > everyone else.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
Brodeur
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Not really. Sample sizes matter alot. There's a reason you can't take 10 baseball games and draw conclusions about pitchers based on a 1.33 ERA in those 10 games if they have a 4+ ERA over the course of 160 games.

You can find a <2 ERA stretch of 10 games, or even 20 games, for most pitchers.

It's simply not valid to draw conclusions from the small sample sizes you keep bringing up to counter my argument which was based on a 400-900 snap sample size.
Are you trying to argue for advanced football stats, then use ERA of all ******* things?
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Vidae, I want to make sure you see this prediction.
This guy just went off the reservation, permanently. Jon Baldwin has a little bit of upside to him, and he should thrive in this offense, but holy christ man, Calvin Johnson is CALVIN JOHNSON.

The only thing Jon Baldwin and Calvin Johnson have in common are that they're both WRs, and even that might be going too far.
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