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Old 03-01-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I said it before, but I'll reiterate bc I feel strongly about this prospect:

Jordan Hill.

Jordan Hill is a guy who's short at 6 1", and he didn't blaze the 40 at 5.3, but when you watch him play, he's a tremendous penetrating pass rushing 4-3 UT.

Watch him vs Wisconsin. Made a ton of plays. You can't run stretch or zone on him, he fights through it with his lateral agility all day long. You can't single him up, he'll get in the backfield. On passing downs he's always shooting the gap and getting to the qb for pressures. The only time he had difficulty was when he was doubled on a trap.

Watch him in the Senior Bowl. Made plays all game long. This guy is a player. He's tremendous value in the 3rd round. At the very worst, I think his floor is a nickel pass rushing DT. But I think he can be more than that.

I think he'll emerge as one of the better DTs in this draft. He's active, he's quick, he has great technique, great lateral agility, tremendous motor, very high football iq, he can read the screen and the stretch very well, he's just a gamer.

Someone is gonna get a tremendous value pick in the 3rd if a 4-3 defense takes this guy.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Default Bjoren Werner

Great thread idea.

A guy who I think got a lot of love but now seems to be getting more criticism, or simply fewer mentions, is Bjoern Werner.

He is absolutely one of my favorite players in this draft because I think he blends a little bit of everything I want in a DE. He is a solid (not freakish) athlete, who has the ability to speed rush around the corner, the strength to bull-rush through a tackle while also maintaining his ground in the run game. Having watched every FSU game this season and then re-watching specific match-ups I have nearly no reservations taking him in the top 10, and think he would be dynamic on the line in a place like Detroit at #5.

Werner has demonstrated the ability to be a play-maker at the DE position in a number of ways, not just pressuring the QB (which he does very well), but also with excellent hands and awareness. Werner has been stout against the run, has a 6th sense for batting balls down at the line of scrimmage and I was constantly impressed with his second and third effort to track plays down.

Beyond what I can see with my eyes and watch on tape, I think Werner stacked up well at the combine and showed/confirmed much of what many expected: That he was a solid, not freakish athlete, but that he was a solid blend of speed, strength with maybe a bit more explosiveness than expected.

I think one fact that appears to be lost on many when talking about "upside" and "potential" is that Werner has only played 6 years of organized football with one of them being in Germany and two others against less than stellar competition in Connecticut. In many ways he is still a malleable and trainable player who doesn't appear to have any red flags in regards to coach-ability or off the field issues (He is already married and comes off far more mature than his age would indicate).

My comparison is Kyle Vanden Bosch or Chris Long. Similarly built players with comparable combine measurables.

He appears to be a three down player that does mix the measureables with the productivity to make me confident that he will be a solid player at the NFL level.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I said it before, but I'll reiterate bc I feel strongly about this prospect:

Jordan Hill.

Jordan Hill is a guy who's short at 6 1", and he didn't blaze the 40 at 5.3, but when you watch him play, he's a tremendous penetrating pass rushing 4-3 UT.

Watch him vs Wisconsin. Made a ton of plays. You can't run stretch or zone on him, he fights through it with his lateral agility all day long. You can't single him up, he'll get in the backfield. On passing downs he's always shooting the gap and getting to the qb for pressures. The only time he had difficulty was when he was doubled on a trap.

Watch him in the Senior Bowl. Made plays all game long. This guy is a player. He's tremendous value in the 3rd round. At the very worst, I think his floor is a nickel pass rushing DT. But I think he can be more than that.

I think he'll emerge as one of the better DTs in this draft. He's active, he's quick, he has great technique, great lateral agility, tremendous motor, very high football iq, he can read the screen and the stretch very well, he's just a gamer.

Someone is gonna get a tremendous value pick in the 3rd if a 4-3 defense takes this guy.
I completely agree. He's been talked up pretty well for Seattle. I actually think he could last into the 4th round. Not because of lack of skill, but that this draft is just so very deep both at WR and CB. This draft really has a good 80-90 prospects that would normally grade a round 2 selection. Hill could slide through no fault of his own.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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I completely agree. He's been talked up pretty well for Seattle. I actually think he could last into the 4th round. Not because of lack of skill, but that this draft is just so very deep both at WR and CB. This draft really has a good 80-90 prospects that would normally grade a round 2 selection. Hill could slide through no fault of his own.
Absolutely, and I really do like this guy a lot. It would not surprise me at all if he winds up outperforming players who are graded higher than him. What I love the most is his football iq. He has a natural feel for when he's not being blocked and how to attack the offense in those situations. DT busts often bc they lack football IQ, this guy has high football IQ.

If Seattle gets him, the rich get richer. I am a huge Jordan Hill fan.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Too bad he has like zero cutting ability.

You need that to be good in the NFL.


He's got exceptional short area quickness for a big back and his workouts numbers bare that out.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Too bad he has like zero cutting ability.

You need that to be good in the NFL.
Johnathon Dwyer had a nice string of games as a starter this past season in Pittsburgh. To the point where they don't mind him being the starter again this year.

He has the same cutting ability as me after eating chinese food. And Guess what? It isn't good.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Ziggy Ansah

I knew from the first time I saw him play this year he would be a 1st round pick when it was all said and done. The guy has and incredible skill set that includes long arms, heavy hands, the ability to keep sight on the ball and Javon Kease-like closing speed. Ansah is a 4-3 DE that will disrupt team's blocking schemes by making plays no one has any business making, and that's what makes him a top pick.
How am I looking so far?
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Great thread idea.

A guy who I think got a lot of love but now seems to be getting more criticism, or simply fewer mentions, is Bjoern Werner.

He is absolutely one of my favorite players in this draft because I think he blends a little bit of everything I want in a DE. He is a solid (not freakish) athlete, who has the ability to speed rush around the corner, the strength to bull-rush through a tackle while also maintaining his ground in the run game. Having watched every FSU game this season and then re-watching specific match-ups I have nearly no reservations taking him in the top 10, and think he would be dynamic on the line in a place like Detroit at #5.

Werner has demonstrated the ability to be a play-maker at the DE position in a number of ways, not just pressuring the QB (which he does very well), but also with excellent hands and awareness. Werner has been stout against the run, has a 6th sense for batting balls down at the line of scrimmage and I was constantly impressed with his second and third effort to track plays down.

Beyond what I can see with my eyes and watch on tape, I think Werner stacked up well at the combine and showed/confirmed much of what many expected: That he was a solid, not freakish athlete, but that he was a solid blend of speed, strength with maybe a bit more explosiveness than expected.

I think one fact that appears to be lost on many when talking about "upside" and "potential" is that Werner has only played 6 years of organized football with one of them being in Germany and two others against less than stellar competition in Connecticut. In many ways he is still a malleable and trainable player who doesn't appear to have any red flags in regards to coach-ability or off the field issues (He is already married and comes off far more mature than his age would indicate).

My comparison is Kyle Vanden Bosch or Chris Long. Similarly built players with comparable combine measurables.

He appears to be a three down player that does mix the measureables with the productivity to make me confident that he will be a solid player at the NFL level.
Solid is the key, and solid usually doesn't make you a top ten pick. You mentioned his measurables compared to Chris Long, but Long's were clearly better. He also was more experienced having grew up around football.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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How am I looking so far?
Still not a believer.

Projects like Aaron Maybin have left a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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How am I looking so far?
?

You literally won't know if you're right until at least 2+ years from now.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Absolutely, and I really do like this guy a lot. It would not surprise me at all if he winds up outperforming players who are graded higher than him. What I love the most is his football iq. He has a natural feel for when he's not being blocked and how to attack the offense in those situations. DT busts often bc they lack football IQ, this guy has high football IQ.

If Seattle gets him, the rich get richer. I am a huge Jordan Hill fan.
The problem I have with Jordan HIll is that, as a Penn State fan, I got to see alot of him and my impression was that he was good, but nothing special, and that he benefited from All-American caliber DTs playing next to him every year.

In fact, in 2011 the Nittany Lions had perhaps their best defense of the past 5 or so years, and senior DT Devon Still was the primary cause. Whenever Still was off the field and Hill was left to himself with a rotation player next to him, the defense suddenly became porous. When Still returned to the lineup, offenses couldn't gain yards easily. I felt that Still outplayed Hill for the entire time they were there.

This past season the defense was still good, but Hill again was outplayed by DaQuan Jones, another junior DT who played alongside him and commanded most of the double teams a la Still when he was there.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Solid is the key, and solid usually doesn't make you a top ten pick. You mentioned his measurables compared to Chris Long, but Long's were clearly better. He also was more experienced having grew up around football.
I dont have them up in front of me now (back at the office now), and though you are right that Long's measurables were better (at least in some ways) they were also eerily similar in many other ways.

As far as the experience is concerned - that can cut both ways - it COULD be argued that Chris was far closer to his ceiling than Werner as Werner simply doesnt have as many snaps and is still learning technique. From everything I have read and seen Werner has been a sponge with learning, a level headed kid with a strong motor. He may not be "elite" with the 40 time and some others, but he is so close to the optimum numbers (in many ways) that I can look past that a bit and see a still relatively young player, ready to be molded who has the right temperament, solid physical traits and then has production to justify my faith. Vanden Bosch is a pretty fair comparison with Chris long being the ceiling.

When put into a vacuum, which is what the draft is, I am not entirely sure Id take many other DE's over him. Certainly others have better measurables, at least in some ways, but it is countered that they are tweeners, or pass-rushers only who cant stop the run, or we run into guys who simply lack production which is a flag worth raising.

I think Werner at #5 makes an awful lot of sense as I can see him being a 10+ sack player for a long time who is a no-nonsense, lunch pale guy who just gets the job done. Every team needs players like him and many teams are going to be sad a few years from now when they realized they passed on him.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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The problem I have with Jordan HIll is that, as a Penn State fan, I got to see alot of him and my impression was that he was good, but nothing special, and that he benefited from All-American caliber DTs playing next to him every year.

In fact, in 2011 the Nittany Lions had perhaps their best defense of the past 5 or so years, and senior DT Devon Still was the primary cause. Whenever Still was off the field and Hill was left to himself with a rotation player next to him, the defense suddenly became porous. When Still returned to the lineup, offenses couldn't gain yards easily. I felt that Still outplayed Hill for the entire time they were there.

This past season the defense was still good, but Hill again was outplayed by DaQuan Jones, another junior DT who played alongside him and commanded most of the double teams a la Still when he was there.
And that's why he'll fall. Bc he's not the type of DT who is gonna be a Ngata and collapse the interior and draw those doubles. But not all DTs have to be that. As long as you put a NT next to him who's gonna occupy linemen, he's the perfect compliment to shoot the gap. That's his game.

You don't draft Hill to occupy blockers. You're drafting him to shoot the gaps and generate pressure. And he's shown he can do that consistently if he's next to a NT who can draw the Center.

That's why I think he's an excellent nickel interior pass rusher. That type of role is equally important though and undervalued at the moment.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Several of the corners who saw significant time were visible liabilities as well. The ones not named Dee Milliner, that is.
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Not sue the beef with Sunseri, he might be the best sophomore S in the country.
One of the better ones as far as football IQ, yes. Bad in coverage, though. Main reason he got replaced by Clinton-Dix as a starter midway through the season and Smart started only using him in the Money(or Star, I forgot which is which)/dime packages while Fulton and Chris Black started sharing reps in the nickel sub-packages. Fully expect him to resume that role next season while Clinton-Dix and Collins start at safety.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Still not a believer.

Projects like Aaron Maybin have left a bad taste in my mouth.
Aaron Maybin? What about Jason Pierre Paul?
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Aaron Maybin? What about Jason Pierre Paul?
Well I got the Maybin experience....and it blew....
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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Fear the Spear - Winston Era has begun....
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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."

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Old 03-01-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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I dont have them up in front of me now (back at the office now), and though you are right that Long's measurables were better (at least in some ways) they were also eerily similar in many other ways.

As far as the experience is concerned - that can cut both ways - it COULD be argued that Chris was far closer to his ceiling than Werner as Werner simply doesnt have as many snaps and is still learning technique. From everything I have read and seen Werner has been a sponge with learning, a level headed kid with a strong motor. He may not be "elite" with the 40 time and some others, but he is so close to the optimum numbers (in many ways) that I can look past that a bit and see a still relatively young player, ready to be molded who has the right temperament, solid physical traits and then has production to justify my faith. Vanden Bosch is a pretty fair comparison with Chris long being the ceiling.

When put into a vacuum, which is what the draft is, I am not entirely sure Id take many other DE's over him. Certainly others have better measurables, at least in some ways, but it is countered that they are tweeners, or pass-rushers only who cant stop the run, or we run into guys who simply lack production which is a flag worth raising.

I think Werner at #5 makes an awful lot of sense as I can see him being a 10+ sack player for a long time who is a no-nonsense, lunch pale guy who just gets the job done. Every team needs players like him and many teams are going to be sad a few years from now when they realized they passed on him.
This may sound strange at first, but I actually don't think he has that much upside despite his few years of experience. His technique is already pretty refined. Physically, he appears to be mature. His measurables are what they are and he appears to pretty close to the peak of his physical capabilities.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:37 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Well i got the Maybin experience...and it was HORRIBLE..
I don't see any parallels between them. Maybin was still developing physically. He NEVER showed anything resembling football instincts whereas Ansah looks like he was born with them. Also, Ansah has demonstrated great functional strength while Maybin flooded the internet with shirtless picks of himself.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap10...2013-nfl-draft
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The NFL Network's Bucky Brooks believes Michigan State's Le'Veon Bell is the top RB in this class, "and it's not even close."
Brooks adds that "there is not a more complete back in this draft than Bell" and cites the Spartan's receiving skills, ability to carry a heavy workload, and hard nosed running style. "Now, that's not to say Bell is without flaws," Brooks writes. "He doesn't show explosive first-step quickness, and some scouts worry about his overall toughness, despite the remarkable production." He ultimately compares Bell to Steven Jackson.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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1. Damontre Moore - Has had a bit of a roller coaster on media draft boards, but he is still the same guy who put up phenomenal numbers at A.& M. and won't turn 21 until early next football season. He is three years younger than Jarvis Jones, and four or five years younger than Hunt and Ansah. With better career college numbers.

2. Marquess Wilson - Another guy who won't turn 21 until the start of the season and has terrific college production behind him already. Wilson was outplaying Keenan Allen and Robert Woods in the Pac 12, prior to the arrival of Mike Leach. He stood up to Leach's coaching tactics and is paying a heavy price. But I don't see it as a "character concern". To me it seems pretty gutsy and honest.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:36 PM    (permalink
Miaoww
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Mid round prospects I really like:

Montee Ball - just a solid, solid RB. Does everything well, but nothing exceptional and he has the athleticism to back it up. He has a lot of wear on his tires, but I'd also say that he's never been seriously injured which is a big plus. In a RBBC system I think he'll thrive.

Travis Kelce - my big sleeper prospect. Huge, athletic TE that man handled the competition as a blocker. His athleticism means that he's a threat in the passing game too, displaying good hands. Needs a little refinement as a route runner, but the tools are all there.

Tyrann Mathieu - I'm with Primetime on this kid. He's just a hell of a football player. I don't think he'll be lining up outside, but as a NB he'll basically be a starter. His football instincts are off the charts and he has GREAT hands. He'll be around the ball a lot at the next level and get his hands on it at a fair rate. I think the added bonus is that he's a very effective return man too. In the 3rd round he's great value.
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