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Old 04-22-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
Ness
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Luckily the Jets play in a terrible division. The only threat are the Patriots. That and they play in the AFC. The NFC is where the big dogs roam right now.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Luckily the Jets play in a terrible division. The only threat are the Patriots. That and they play in the AFC. The NFC is where the big dogs roam right now.
The AFC has big dogs, the problem is that teams 5-16 are chihuahuas.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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The Jets also have a dearth of talent and no identity. Revis was their identity and they traded him away for a couple of picks. People are acting like Revis is somehow in the way of getting them a franchise QB. They won't be able to afford any QB that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to with him either by cap or by picks. There is some weird correlation that people are applying to Revis that he is somehow what is causing their lack of a QB. He's no more in the way of the Jets getting a QB than Matthews is in GB, Ngata is in Baltimore, or Calvin Johnson is in Detroit. Revis was a huge difference maker and they traded him away entirely because their owner is an idiot, not because he was stopping then from getting a franchise QB.
Who really cares about identity though if you aren't getting wins. Revis is their star player. Great. He's also a cornerback, and corners aren't franchise centerpieces. They just aren't. How many more games do the Jets win this past season with their "identity" player? How did the pass defense do in 2012 without him? Hey if they wanted to get him his mega deal with an already bleak cap situation, then great. Now you have the highest paid corner in NFL history on your team. With the Jets roster they still aren't getting wins because of the terrible offense. I mean, if you aren't going to pay him his ransom demands that change every second, then you might as well try to get something for him. No one is saying, or at least I wasn't, that Revis was stopping the Jets from getting a franchise quarterback. I was making the point that the Jets need help everywhere and they need more picks to try and find quality players that will help them win on offense. Let's say the Jets miraculously did find their quarterback with one of the picks that the Jets get from Tampa Bay for Revis and all of a sudden they seem competitive. Or they get a star runningback that brings the offense to life. Then the trade wouldn't seem so bad if they get a player that actually gives the Jets a chance to win games on offense, which is what you need in today's league. A good offense. We should at the very least see how the Jets utilize what they'll be getting in return.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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The Jets also have a dearth of talent and no identity. Revis was their identity and they traded him away for a couple of picks. People are acting like Revis is somehow in the way of getting them a franchise QB. They won't be able to afford any QB that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to with him either by cap or by picks. There is some weird correlation that people are applying to Revis that he is somehow what is causing their lack of a QB. He's no more in the way of the Jets getting a QB than Matthews is in GB, Ngata is in Baltimore, or Calvin Johnson is in Detroit. Revis was a huge difference maker and they traded him away entirely because their owner is an idiot, not because he was stopping then from getting a franchise QB.

They have the 9th pick in the draft. They can get a qb if they want one. Geno might even be there. And he'd be dirt cheap.

Now what if that rookie qb winds up being good? Now all of a sudden so many "holes" on offense aren't holes anymore. And your defense is pretty damn good if healthy and with the right draft picks.

Now all of a sudden they're a good team again.

The problem is, everybody is assuming that there are no qbs in this draft class so they just assume these teams can't improve there, and that's just absolutely false.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Who really cares about identity though if you aren't getting wins. Revis is their star player. Great. He's also a cornerback, and corners aren't franchise centerpieces. They just aren't. How many more games do the Jets win this past season with their "identity" player? How did the pass defense do in 2012 without him? Hey if they wanted to get him his mega deal with an already bleak cap situation, then great. Now you have the highest paid corner in NFL history on your team. With the Jets roster they still aren't getting wins because of the terrible offense. I mean, if you aren't going to pay him his ransom demands that change every second, then you might as well try to get something for him. No one is saying, or at least I wasn't, that Revis was stopping the Jets from getting a franchise quarterback. I was making the point that the Jets need help everywhere and they need more picks to try and find quality players that will help them win on offense. Let's say the Jets miraculously did find their quarterback with one of the picks that the Jets get from Tampa Bay for Revis and all of a sudden they seem competitive. Or they get a star runningback that brings the offense to life. Then the trade wouldn't seem so bad if they get a player that actually gives the Jets a chance to win games on offense, which is what you need in today's league. A good offense. We should at the very least see how the Jets utilize what they'll be getting in return.
You need a quality roster beyond a QB to win in this league. No team has won entirely on the basis of a great QB. Revis is a special difference maker whose abilities make everyone on that team better. The pass defense was a mirage last year. They got run all over, and the good passing teams were able to move the football on them. Their success on defense was on the backs of career years from Cro and Landry, one of whom is no longer there. It made no more sense for the Jets to dump Revis than it would for the Ravens to have dumped Suggs or Ngata in order to try to win the title. You're trying to put a balanced team on the field that can cause fits for other teams and win you football games. Revis is part of that equation. Saying we have a need somewhere, so lets blow up what we're good at so we can potentially get better at the need spot is stupid. The Jets took 4 steps back to go 2 steps forward.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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So zero guaranteed money? I forsee more Revis drama in the not too distant future.

-Bucs can cut him at any time but they will be hesitant because of the picks they gave up.

-If Revis gets cut he can cash in again. He is betting on himself.

I guess it works out. Just strange.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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I think this is going to solely rely on what Idzik does with the 13th pick and how good that player becomes. You get a Pro Bowler with that pick and it'll look like a great move. Their pass defense is fine, Cromartie did a great job, but it's ridiculous you had Revis holdout for over a month, get his money, get hurt, then when he blows his ACL and misses the entire season he feels like he should get more money?


It's not like he was doing them any favors here. He was about as difficult as you can be and expected the team to bend over every time he ask them to. If he was in Pittsburgh doing this he would have been traded as well because they don't put players above the organization and everyone would be applauding them for making a stand, it's just that it's the Jets you have to question anything they do.


Considering it was one team bidding and everyone knew that, they did well for a player fresh off an ACL tear and wanting a new contract. You have to factor all that in, and all they need to do is hit with that pick and it'll look genius in a few years.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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You need a quality roster beyond a QB to win in this league. No team has won entirely on the basis of a great QB. Revis is a special difference maker whose abilities make everyone on that team better. The pass defense was a mirage last year. They got run all over, and the good passing teams were able to move the football on them. Their success on defense was on the backs of career years from Cro and Landry, one of whom is no longer there. It made no more sense for the Jets to dump Revis than it would for the Ravens to have dumped Suggs or Ngata in order to try to win the title. You're trying to put a balanced team on the field that can cause fits for other teams and win you football games. Revis is part of that equation. Saying we have a need somewhere, so lets blow up what we're good at so we can potentially get better at the need spot is stupid. The Jets took 4 steps back to go 2 steps forward.
Right. You don't need just a quarterback. You need other players on offense, which is what I said. Not just quarterback. Having Revis not present didn't result in the collapse of the entire run defense. That's ridiculous. Yes he's a great corner at everything, but other players on defense that had been decent to good in years past had started to decline like Bart Scott or Calvin Pace. The offense was one of the worst the franchise has ever had as well, resulting in more time of possession for opposing offense against the Jets defense. Rex Ryan is a good defensive coach, if anything and he'll always make the best of what he has to work with. Again, if you think signing Revis to another mega deal with an already bleak cap situation was the answer, then more power to you. Was trading him the answer? We'll see. I just don't think one scenario was clearly better than the other in regards to the Jets. Personally I don't think Revis would get the Jets out of their funk and they have around the same wins with or without him last year. Maybe they rank slightly better in defense, but I don't necessarily see them winning more games and being competitive. I want to see what the Jets at least utilize for what they traded Revis for. If they load up on offense and get two or three quality players from their draft on offense with help from the picks that he Buccaneers gave them and they start to look like they'll actually win games then the trade won't seem so bad in retrospect. I just don't buy the idea that getting rid of Revis has now set the franchise back for years. He's a corner. You don't have to build around a corner. As for the pass defense being a mirage, we'll see.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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They have plenty of weapons on offense. Sanchez is just awful. Holmes, Hill, and Kerley aren't the worst weapons in the world. That lineup is better than what some other teams have.

Their OTs are solid. They have a top tier Center. They need Guards. Big deal. Guard is a Guard is a Guard. You can fill that in the middle of the draft.

RBs are dime a dozen.

They have a lot more talent on offense than people realize, and once they get a serviceable qb in house to utilize it, people will start to notice.

It's Sanchez guys. Sanchez is awful.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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What? The Jets offensive playmakers were terrible and they lost Holmes for the whole year.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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They have plenty of weapons on offense. Sanchez is just awful. Holmes, Hill, and Kerley aren't the worst weapons in the world. That lineup is better than what some other teams have.

Their OTs are solid. They have a top tier Center. They need Guards. Big deal. Guard is a Guard is a Guard. You can fill that in the middle of the draft.

RBs are dime a dozen.

They have a lot more talent on offense than people realize, and once they get a serviceable qb in house to utilize it, people will start to notice.

It's Sanchez guys. Sanchez is awful.

He sucks but they didn't have much. Hill is an athlete but was having to start games and he clearly wasn't ready, Holmes was hurt but when he was out there he was barely giving any effort, Greene was garbage, and their RT was attrocious all year. No doubt a good QB would have done much better but they still need a bunch of weapons.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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They have plenty of weapons on offense. Sanchez is just awful. Holmes, Hill, and Kerley aren't the worst weapons in the world. That lineup is better than what some other teams have.

Their OTs are solid. They have a top tier Center. They need Guards. Big deal. Guard is a Guard is a Guard. You can fill that in the middle of the draft.

RBs are dime a dozen.

They have a lot more talent on offense than people realize, and once they get a serviceable qb in house to utilize it, people will start to notice.

It's Sanchez guys. Sanchez is awful.
Hill and Kerely aren't scaring anyone. They could do a lot better and shouldn't just settle on what they have regardless of quarterback. Hill was battling injuries this past season and when he was in the lineup he completely vanished in a lot of games not even making a reception. Bad quarterback play is partly to do with that, sure. He also had some mental lapses too. But even if you get a better quarterback, sure your targets might improve, but that still doesn't guarantee that you'll have a receiver that will be a difference maker. The jury is still out on Hill of course as he was a rookie, but let's not pencil him in even as a legitimate #2 at this point. Holmes is really the only receiving threat on that team and he is coming off an injury.

Yes they need guards. Finding quality guards isn't actually as easy as folks might believe it is. Having to do deal with Chilo Racal and Adam Snyder for a while enforced that notion. Now Arizona has that problem. Hopefully the Jets can find someone that is just serviceable and not a complete train wreck.

Runningbacks are a dime a dozen? Some teams have been looking for a decent one for years. The Browns (we'll see about Richardson), Cardinals, Chargers, Colts, and Packers for instance have all had inconsistent issues with runningbacks for a while.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Even if you have your quality quarterback, if your surrounding team is garbage, your quarterback can look human. I think the Chargers are having this problem in San Diego. Sure Rivers has to get his head out of his ass to some capacity, but their offensive lineup is just not very good and despite his best effort, Rivers can't make everyone look good and have all the pieces work behind his guidance. The Jets need to build a quality team with depth with or without a stud quarterback.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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That's what he wants. He'll get 32 million over the next 2 years bc theres no way Tampa cuts him, then either hold out and get cut, or demand guaranteed money and hold out.

This is a 2 year deal, then he plans on holding out again in 2 years to either get more money, get guaranteed money, or both.

He'll still be 30, young enough to make one more power move. He knows what he's doing. It's smart on his end if he can stay healthy.
And if he can't stay healthy or play at a top level he's ******. That's why guaranteed money exists in contracts.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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Right. You don't need just a quarterback. You need other players on offense, which is what I said. Not just quarterback. Having Revis not present didn't result in the collapse of the entire run defense. That's ridiculous. Yes he's a great corner at everything, but other players on defense that had been decent to good in years past had started to decline like Bart Scott or Calvin Pace. The offense was one of the worst the franchise has ever had as well, resulting in more time of possession for opposing offense against the Jets defense. Rex Ryan is a good defensive coach, if anything and he'll always make the best of what he has to work with. Again, if you think signing Revis to another mega deal with an already bleak cap situation was the answer, then more power to you. Was trading him the answer? We'll see. I just don't think one scenario was clearly better than the other in regards to the Jets. Personally I don't think Revis would get the Jets out of their funk and they have around the same wins with or without him last year. Maybe they rank slightly better in defense, but I don't necessarily see them winning more games and being competitive. I want to see what the Jets at least utilize for what they traded Revis for. If they load up on offense and get two or three quality players from their draft on offense with help from the picks that he Buccaneers gave them and they start to look like they'll actually win games then the trade won't seem so bad in retrospect. I just don't buy the idea that getting rid of Revis has now set the franchise back for years. He's a corner. You don't have to build around a corner. As for the pass defense being a mirage, we'll see.
The Jets cap situation and Revis's contract demands are pretty much mutually exclusive situations. As soon as next season the Jets will have plenty of cap space, and a large extension with Revis was possible while maintaining cap flexibility in the future. They have no talent coming up to get paid big 2nd contracts and they can clear a ton of money by getting rid of Sanchez, Harris, and Holmes. Having Revis hindered nothing for them. They traded a hall of fame player with a lot of good years left for the opportunity to draft somebody who has <5% chance of being as good or of having nearly the same impact as him.

And this idea that the Jets still have a great defense is pretty much a myth. They have a lot more issues on that side of the ball than people realize.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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They traded away Revis bc Woody Johnson didn't want to keep him. It was a personal thing for Woody, he didn't like how Revis was dictating demands to the organization and wanted him off the team.

It wasn't a football move. They're trying to mask it as such, but it wasn't. This was a personal move by Woody Johnson. Revis even offered the same contract proposition to the Jets with no guaranteed money and they wouldn't even consider it. Bc Woody wanted him gone. It wasn't about football.

They traded a HOFer they could easily afford for a 1st round draft pick. Unless that 1st round draft pick becomes a HOFer, I don't see how this was a good trade for them.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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And if he can't stay healthy or play at a top level he's ******. That's why guaranteed money exists in contracts.
He's gambling on himself to be healthy. It's a risk for sure. Which is why I'm guessing he'll hold again after 2 years. Maybe even after this year.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
They traded away Revis bc Woody Johnson didn't want to keep him. It was a personal thing for Woody, he didn't like how Revis was dictating demands to the organization and wanted him off the team.

It wasn't a football move. They're trying to mask it as such, but it wasn't. This was a personal move by Woody Johnson. Revis even offered the same contract proposition to the Jets with no guaranteed money and they wouldn't even consider it. Bc Woody wanted him gone. It wasn't about football.

They traded a HOFer they could easily afford for a 1st round draft pick. Unless that 1st round draft pick becomes a HOFer, I don't see how this was a good trade for them.
If they get a Very Good player at a more important position, I think they can still win the trade.

Especially if Revis's performance begins to dip due to injury/age.

I'd rather have a Very Good 22-year-old pass-rushing OLB/DE for the next 4 years than an Elite 29 year old CB for the next 4 years.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
If they get a Very Good player at a more important position, I think they can still win the trade.

Especially if Revis's performance begins to dip due to injury/age.

I'd rather have a Very Good 22-year-old pass-rushing OLB/DE for the next 4 years than an Elite 29 year old CB for the next 4 years.
Revis is as important of a force as any pass rusher not named Miller or Watt. Nevertheless the Jets won't have a shot for anyone at 13 that they wouldn't have had at 9 so it's pretty much a moot point anyways.

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Old 04-22-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
If they get a Very Good player at a more important position, I think they can still win the trade.

Especially if Revis's performance begins to dip due to injury/age.

I'd rather have a Very Good 22-year-old pass-rushing OLB/DE for the next 4 years than an Elite 29 year old CB for the next 4 years.
It's a lot easier to find sacks than it is to find what Revis does for you. No one in the league does this every play of every game vs the best WR on the other team:



No one in the league can do that every snap of every game vs any WR in the league and literally completely take them out of the game. He's that good, and only he and Deion Sanders have ever been able to do it as good as he's done it.

Sacks can be found fairly easily. There's pass rushing talents every year that come out of the draft. It's like comparing a home run hitter to a shut out pitcher. It's a lot easier to find a home run hitter than a HOF pitcher.

When you get one, you don't give it away for nothing.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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The Jets cap situation and Revis's contract demands are pretty much mutually exclusive situations. As soon as next season the Jets will have plenty of cap space, and a large extension with Revis was possible while maintaining cap flexibility in the future. They have no talent coming up to get paid big 2nd contracts and they can clear a ton of money by getting rid of Sanchez, Harris, and Holmes. Having Revis hindered nothing for them. They traded a hall of fame player with a lot of good years left for the opportunity to draft somebody who has <5% chance of being as good or of having nearly the same impact as him.

And this idea that the Jets still have a great defense is pretty much a myth. They have a lot more issues on that side of the ball than people realize.
Well, you could always use some of that capital to bring in other free agents with lofty price tags that very next year once the cap situation clears.

And I never said the Jets still have a great defense. I did say that I don't believe the franchise will be set back if Revis is gone though. Again, it depends on what happens with what they get in return for Revis. Less than 5% on getting return value is a pretty broad statement. It would depend on the position. If it was an offensive playmaker that makes an impact and helps the Jets score points that alone already makes the trade not seem so bad.

If Revis was absolutely vital to the Jets making postseason runs, then it would be a different story, but that isn't the case. Team defenses are spread out more in this league and it's really all about scoring points to at least get to the playoffs. Sure the Jets didn't have to trade him, but since he wasn't vital to their success (I could see them still finishing 6-10 the previous year) I don't think it's as big of a deal as some people are making it out to be.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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He's barely even smiling. This move was a mistake, Tampa.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Idzik had no choice with Woody's refusal to pay Revis. (Don't get me started on Woody).

I just hope that Idzik can flip either #9 or #13 (or both) for late first/second round picks. They'll also get a compensatory pick next year for Revis so hopefully this trade will result in 4+ picks in the top 3 rounds in the next 2 years. For a team that desperately needs to inject talent into the roster, I'll take it.
The bolded part is absolutely incorrect.

The NFL only awards compensatory selections for players lost via free agency, not via trade.

I've also seen a lot of Jets fans saying that the team would have received a compensatory pick if Revis had left the team in free agency, but that's not necessarily true either. The compensatory system is based off of a team's net loss of free agents first and foremost. If the Jets had lost Revis via FA, but signed two players, they would have not been eligible for a compensation pick because they gained a player. The quality of the players gained and lost doesn't even come into the equation until after it's determined whether or not a team is even eligible to receive a selection based on their net loss of players.

This is why the Chargers didn't receive a compensatory pick for the loss of Vincent Jackson.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for correcting me. I was misinformed.

With that being said, I read on ESPN that the Jets will likely receive 4 compensentory picks next year in addition to the Bucs' pick. That gives Idzik a lot of ammo.
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