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Old 04-22-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
It's a lot easier to find sacks than it is to find what Revis does for you. No one in the league does this every play of every game vs the best WR on the other team:



No one in the league can do that every snap of every game vs any WR in the league and literally completely take them out of the game. He's that good, and only he and Deion Sanders have ever been able to do it as good as he's done it.

Sacks can be found fairly easily. There's pass rushing talents every year that come out of the draft. It's like comparing a home run hitter to a shut out pitcher. It's a lot easier to find a home run hitter than a HOF pitcher.

When you get one, you don't give it away for nothing.

You're assuming that 29-year-old Revis coming off injury will be the Revis of 2009/2010 indefinitely.

THe problem with the CB position is that elite CB play is much harder to sustain long-term than elite Pass-Rushing play.

Look at how long guys like Michael Strahan played and compare that to the lifespan of your average top-5 cornerback.

I will be surprised if Revis has more than 1-2 years of "shutdown" ability left in him, if that.

Whereas, a 22-year-old pass rusher (let's assume he isn't a bust), could give you 10+ years of solid play.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Revis has 4 more years of elite play left in him. Which is why they could have afforded him. Bc any qb they draft in the next year or 2 will be cheap for the next 4 years, so it's not like they need to save the money for a quarterback.

And here's the part you're completely missing: Why couldn't they have Revis AND a pass rusher?

If they draft a pass rusher he's cheap for 4 years. So why couldn't they have BOTH?

They absolutely could have. They're just idiots.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Revis has 4 more years of elite play left in him. Which is why they could have afforded him. Bc any qb they draft in the next year or 2 will be cheap for the next 4 years, so it's not like they need to save the money for a quarterback.

And here's the part you're completely missing: Why couldn't they have Revis AND a pass rusher?

If they draft a pass rusher he's cheap for 4 years. So why couldn't they have BOTH?

They absolutely could have. They're just idiots.
I would have ditched Revis as well. Not denying his talent but the guy is all about Revis. For a team that is rebuilding, getting two first rounders out of it isn't too bad. They could go Warmack with the first pick and Fluker with the 13th. Teamed with 'Brick, that would be an impressive line.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Revis has 4 more years of elite play left in him. Which is why they could have afforded him. Bc any qb they draft in the next year or 2 will be cheap for the next 4 years, so it's not like they need to save the money for a quarterback.
You really don't know this.

When CBs lose even a tenth of their speed, it can drastically affect their ability to stay with faster receivers. CBs can go from "great" to "scrub" within a year, and often before they ever turn 31.

Whereas pass rushers, especially power/leverage rushers, can modify their game slightly when they lose some of their speed as they age but remain highly productive due to their ability to leverage their experience and tactics in the pass rush game.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I would have ditched Revis as well. Not denying his talent but the guy is all about Revis. For a team that is rebuilding, getting two first rounders out of it isn't too bad. They could go Warmack with the first pick and Fluker with the 13th. Teamed with 'Brick, that would be an impressive line.
yep two lineman will give sanchez a nice clean pocket to miss open guys from. certainly will help prevent future butt fumbles too.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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I would have ditched Revis as well. Not denying his talent but the guy is all about Revis. For a team that is rebuilding, getting two first rounders out of it isn't too bad. They could go Warmack with the first pick and Fluker with the 13th. Teamed with 'Brick, that would be an impressive line.
They didn't get 2 first round picks out it. They got 1.

Trading him away basically netted them 1 player who will never be as good as Revis. So yeah. There's that.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
They didn't get 2 first round picks out it. They got 1.

Trading him away basically netted them 1 player who will never be as good as Revis. So yeah. There's that.
The player they draft at #13 could *easily* be better than Revis in the next 4-5 years.

If we're just talking next year, then I'd give the edge to Revis. But 29 year old CB coming off ACL injury vs. 22 year old player? It's a no brainer. #13 pick is far more valuable in the long term (outside of the next year or two).
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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You really don't know this.

When CBs lose even a tenth of their speed, it can drastically affect their ability to stay with faster receivers. CBs can go from "great" to "scrub" within a year, and often before they ever turn 31.

Whereas pass rushers, especially power/leverage rushers, can modify their game slightly when they lose some of their speed as they age but remain highly productive due to their ability to leverage their experience and tactics in the pass rush game.
Speed effects every position. You can say the same thing about a pass rusher.

Revis has an advantage here bc his game isn't really built on speed. He's a bully, and his body control and balance are unreal. He's still fast as hell, but he can get away with not being the fastest CB on the planet.

Just look at the longevity of Champ Bailey, or Charles Woodson. It can be done. And the nice thing about a stud CB is he can always move to FS as he loses a step. When a pass rusher is done, he's done. There's no way you can squeeze more years out of him.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Speed effects every position. You can say the same thing about a pass rusher.
Speed affects WR and CB far more than any other position on the football field.

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Revis has an advantage here bc his game isn't really built on speed. He's a bully, and his body control and balance are unreal. He's still fast as hell, but he can get away with not being the fastest CB on the planet.
Every CB's game is based on speed. Would you draft a CB that ran a 4.8 40? I don't think there has ever been a CB that succeeded in the NFL that ran slower than a 4.8 40. If they did, they played STRICTLY Cover-2 behind a stellar pass rush.

Quote:
Just look at the longevity of Champ Bailey, or Charles Woodson. It can be done. And the nice thing about a stud CB is he can always move to FS as he loses a step. When a pass rusher is done, he's done. There's no way you can squeeze more years out of him.
The list of CBs that last beyond age 32 is extremely small. Woodson and Bailey are exceptions to the rule at this point, and I'd be shocked if they play at anything more than a replacement level going into the future. I mean, Woodson was bad last year. Bailey wasn't great, and he did get burned pretty often.

If they're moving to FS, in this day and age, they are more cover safeties than anything else. Champ Bailey and Charles Woodson don't play FS and probably can't play FS at this point.

With a pass rusher, you don't have to move him to a different position. Pass rush is less about speed and raw athletic ability than it is about strength, leverage, and setting up pass rush moves with in-game tactics. Listen to Ryan Riddle, former pass rusher, talk about playing the position on his twitter account or podcasts.

Older pass rushers last longer than older cornerbacks because of this. They don't need elite speed to be effective rushers.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Did 29 become the magic age for players to start sucking or something? Jesus christ. I've never seen someone hammer down a more irrelevant point. Its not like hes 33 or something.

Not to mention he's actually 27, turning 28 in July. So you can't even get the age right....
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Did 29 become the magic age for players to start sucking or something? Jesus christ. I've never seen someone hammer down a more irrelevant point. Its not like hes 33 or something.

Not to mention he's actually 27, turning 28 in July. So you can't even get the age right....
The widely accepted scientific evidence is that 27 is the physical peak for human males.

After 27, the body's athleticism begins to decline. At 28 this football season, the decline already begun for Revis. His speed will be sapped with every coming year, and I doubt he is fast enough at this point to stick with faster recievers.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Every CB's game is based on speed. Would you draft a CB that ran a 4.8 40? I don't think there has ever been a CB that succeeded in the NFL that ran slower than a 4.8 40. If they did, they played STRICTLY Cover-2 behind a stellar pass rush.
What's the point of that question? It's the equivalent of asking "would you draft a DE that ran a 5.0?" The answer would also be 'no'.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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What's the point of that question? It's the equivalent of asking "would you draft a DE that ran a 5.0?" The answer would also be 'no'.
That's my point exactly.

Speed matters more to WR/CB than any other position. At what other position would you literally *write off* any prospect, regardless of intangibles, strength, experience, whatever, due to having sub 4.8 40 speed?

You could be a DE and run a 5.0 40 and still be a good power rusher that holds the edge against the run.

You could be a run-plugging ILB like Brandon Spikes and run a 5.0+ 40 and be a good player.
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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They didn't get 2 first round picks out it. They got 1.

Trading him away basically netted them 1 player who will never be as good as Revis. So yeah. There's that.
They might not have to be to make a bigger impact on the team in terms of getting wins.

It really depends on the player and position.
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Well Revis runs 4.79 so we're ok for now at least.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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They didn't get 2 first round picks out it. They got 1.

Trading him away basically netted them 1 player who will never be as good as Revis. So yeah. There's that.
What about the teams who lose good players to free agency that don't get anything? That happens too. I'm always a fan of trading a guy you know you aren't going to keep and/or pay. If the Panthers had decided a year early they couldn't afford to keep Peppers so they traded him and ended up drafting Orakpo in the draft + a later round pick would that not be better then a compensation pick?


I get that you are talking up his game and what he can affect on the field, but your completely leaving out the headache he constantly caused them. I'm sorry but you don't just give a player an extension everytime he asked for one, if more players acted like Revis did we would see far more trades of big time players.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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yep two lineman will give sanchez a nice clean pocket to miss open guys from. certainly will help prevent future butt fumbles too.
Not a big fan of Geno or Barkley. Next year has the chance to be stacked with QB's so I would bolster the line and then get the QB next year. Just my opinion though.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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What about the teams who lose good players to free agency that don't get anything? That happens too. I'm always a fan of trading a guy you know you aren't going to keep and/or pay. If the Panthers had decided a year early they couldn't afford to keep Peppers so they traded him and ended up drafting Orakpo in the draft + a later round pick would that not be better then a compensation pick?


I get that you are talking up his game and what he can affect on the field, but your completely leaving out the headache he constantly caused them. I'm sorry but you don't just give a player an extension everytime he asked for one, if more players acted like Revis did we would see far more trades of big time players.
Whoops. For some reason I was thinking they got a first rounder this year and a first next year instead of a 3rd or a 4th depending on if Revis is still on the team. I agree. Revis wanted out of NY and was constantly causing headaches. I would have agreed to this trade months ago if I were the Jets GM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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What about the teams who lose good players to free agency that don't get anything? That happens too. I'm always a fan of trading a guy you know you aren't going to keep and/or pay. If the Panthers had decided a year early they couldn't afford to keep Peppers so they traded him and ended up drafting Orakpo in the draft + a later round pick would that not be better then a compensation pick?


I get that you are talking up his game and what he can affect on the field, but your completely leaving out the headache he constantly caused them. I'm sorry but you don't just give a player an extension everytime he asked for one, if more players acted like Revis did we would see far more trades of big time players.
Well, that's where I have my problems with the Jets.

If they called his bluff during Hard Knocks and dared him to sit out the season, this whole mess would never happen. He does it bc he gets away with it, and that's all the Jets fault.

And I don't see why they couldn't bring him back. They absolutely could. They just didn't want to.

So those are my 2 issues with them.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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Um, how old is Champ Bailey? He seems to be playing pretty well these days.

I think some fans are knit-picking here saying Revis will be done at 29? 30?

I mean, guys like Charles Woodson and Ronde Barber have been pretty good in there mid 30's as well.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Well, that's where I have my problems with the Jets.

If they called his bluff during Hard Knocks and dared him to sit out the season, this whole mess would never happen. He does it bc he gets away with it, and that's all the Jets fault.

And I don't see why they couldn't bring him back. They absolutely could. They just didn't want to.

So those are my 2 issues with them.
Although I would like to see a team annoy Revis and threaten to sit him all year, you just can't do that when you have a team willing to give you a top 15 pick in the first round and a 3rd or 4th rounder. Some teams could afford to call his bluff but not when you are a team that needs to scrap everything and start over.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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Revis looked pretty fat when he was throwing out the first pitch for the Rays. You could see his gut.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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I would have ditched Revis as well. Not denying his talent but the guy is all about Revis. For a team that is rebuilding, getting two first rounders out of it isn't too bad. They could go Warmack with the first pick and Fluker with the 13th. Teamed with 'Brick, that would be an impressive line.
And there defense would be gashed non stop.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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Bailey wasn't great, and he did get burned pretty often.
For someone who apparently reads pff religiously, you seemed to have overlooked this article.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ll-pro-team/2/

I guess since, you know, that one bronco game you happened to scope out showed bailey giving up a couple of long td catches, you figured it safe to assume he got burned "pretty often"

Instead of blindly reading (or not reading?) pff articles, you could, like, actually watch the games and perhaps form your own opinion. Brandon graham isn't that great btw.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:23 AM    (permalink
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That's my point exactly.

Speed matters more to WR/CB than any other position. At what other position would you literally *write off* any prospect, regardless of intangibles, strength, experience, whatever, due to having sub 4.8 40 speed?

You could be a DE and run a 5.0 40 and still be a good power rusher that holds the edge against the run.

You could be a run-plugging ILB like Brandon Spikes and run a 5.0+ 40 and be a good player.
Do you have any clue what you're talking about?
Darrelle Revis 40 dash 4.38

Richard Sherman 40 dash- 4.54
Johnathan Joseph 40 dash- 4.31
Brandon Flowers 40 dash-4.55
Patrick Peterson 40 dash-4.34
Lardarius Webb- 40 dash 4.46
Brandon Carr- 40 dash 4.44
Vontae Davis- 40 dash 4.49

7 Cb's right here who played very good ball last season. Two ran a 40 in the 4.3's. So if Revis slows down he'll be fine.

What do you have to say now?
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