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Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
JT Jag
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Jarvis Jones Given Clean Bill of Health
News: Jarvis Jones Given Clean Bill of Health.

Views: I don't buy it.
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MJD is an exception to every rule.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
Babylon
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I think you're better off with Chase Thomas in the 3rd than Jarvis Jones in the first, they're basically the same athlete.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:50 PM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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I think you're better off with Chase Thomas in the 3rd than Jarvis Jones in the first, they're basically the same athlete.
Similar athletes in shorts. They aren't close as players.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:01 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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As for the whole Graham > Pierre-Paul comparison, you can't just say Graham was better than Pierre-Paul because of what is ultimately a meaningless stat provided by Pro Football Focus. I for one don't like it because it fails to take way too many things into consideration.

In the games where Brandon Graham was a starter, here are his stats, and here are the stats of JPP against those same teams. If you want to compare player productivity, then you must make the situations as similar as possible, and without taking into consideration injuries to other teams and whatnot, because quite frankly I don't want to dedicate that much time to it, here's it is:

Graham
@ Dallas (away) - 4 solo tackles, 2 assisted, 1.5 sacks,
@ Tampa Bay - 2 tackles, 0 assisted, 0 sacks
vs. Cincinnati - 4 tackles, 2 assisted, 2.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble
vs. Washington (at home) - 6 tackles, 1 assisted, 0 sacks
@ Giants - 2 tackles, 0 assisted, 0 sacks

Total: 18 tackles, 5 assisted, 4 sacks, 1 forced fumble

JPP
@ Dallas (away) - 3 solo tackles, 1 assisted, 1 sack, 1 interception, 1 TD, 1 pass def.
vs. Tampa Bay - 4 tackles, 4 assisted, 1 sack
@ Cincinnati - 3 tackles, 2 assisted, 0 sacks
vs. Washington (at home) - 3 tackles, 1 assisted, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble
vs. PHI - 4 tackles, 1 assisted, 0 sacks

Total: 17 tackles, 9 assisted, 3 sacks, 1 interception, 1 TD, 1 forced fumble, 1 pass defended.

Hard to say Graham is better.

And what am I trying to prove with this? Two things.

1. Graham is not a better player than JPP right now, regardless of what PFF says. Might have been slightly more productive some games, but other than that one game vs. Cincinnati, he wasn't anything special.

2. Stats simply don't mean anything when evaluating players, because there are so many more things that can and should be taken into consideration but aren't. How talented the guy they're playing against is (different to beat Joe Thomas than it is J'Marcus Webb), if they were double teamed, how long the QB took to throw the ball (aka was it a coverage sack), did they effectively beat the blockers or did they **** up, when their moves work (aka the Freeney spin, very visible to see when he beats a guy), etc. Way too many factors are simply ignored. From what I see, they only count how many times a guy rushes, how many hurries he gets, and how many sacks he gets. That's pretty basic and simple and, in my opinion, incomplete.

And more importantly, stats can be manipulated into backing up whatever it is you want to back up.
You're omitting the most crucial stat which is the combination of sacks, hits, and hurries: total pressures. Sacks alone do not tell the story, and neither do tackles.

Pass rushers can affect a game just as much through a pressure that forces a QB to throw the ball away, or a pressure that affects the QB's judgement and makes him throw an interception, for example.

The bulk of a pass rusher's effect on a game will be through things that aren't shown on the traditional stat sheet - hurries, hits, pressures. These are the things that Profootballfocus.com's "pass rushing productivity" stat measures: how productive was a pass rusher on a PER RUSH basis.

Additionally, run defense cannot just be measured with tackles, especially for defensive linemen. That's why profootballfocus measures a DE's impact on the run game by how he holds the point of attack, or how he pressures the backfield during a run play to force the RB to run into another player, for example. So you can't use stats to judge this, but rather the Profootballfocus "vs. the run" rating which uses subjective video analysis to judge run game performance for players such as Graham.


On a per-rush basis, Graham was simply a more productive player aainst the pass than Pierre Paul if you measure all of the sacks+hits+hurries. Now, Pierrre Paul is a good run player, so maybe they are even in that department. But if you consider total pressures divided by the number of times they both rushed the passer, respectively, you will see that Graham produces more pass rush pressure than Pierre Paul, while also being very good (but not significantly better) vs. the run. So similar run player with superior pass rush = Graham > Pierre Paul last year on a per-snap basis.

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:15 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
You're omitting the most crucial stat which is the combination of sacks, hits, and hurries: total pressures. Sacks alone do not tell the story, and neither do tackles.

Pass rushers can affect a game just as much through a pressure that forces a QB to throw the ball away, or a pressure that affects the QB's judgement and makes him throw an interception, for example.

The bulk of a pass rusher's effect on a game will be through things that aren't shown on the traditional stat sheet - hurries, hits, pressures. These are the things that Profootballfocus.com's "pass rushing productivity" stat measures: how productive was a pass rusher on a PER RUSH basis.

Additionally, run defense cannot just be measured with tackles, especially for defensive linemen. That's why profootballfocus measures a DE's impact on the run game by how he holds the point of attack, or how he pressures the backfield during a run play to force the RB to run into another player, for example. So you can't use stats to judge this, but rather the Profootballfocus "vs. the run" rating which uses subjective video analysis to judge run game performance for players such as Graham.


On a per-rush basis, Graham was simply a more productive player aainst the pass than Pierre Paul if you measure all of the sacks+hits+hurries. Now, Pierrre Paul is a good run player, so maybe they are even in that department. But if you consider total pressures divided by the number of times they both rushed the passer, respectively, you will see that Graham produces more pass rush pressure than Pierre Paul, while also being very good (but not significantly better) vs. the run. So similar run player with superior pass rush = Graham > Pierre Paul last year on a per-snap basis.
You are probably pretty good at math, just incredibly inept at evaluating NFL talent. Daniel Jeremiah just made a perfect comparison for Jarvis Jones. He's slow, but faster than Jones, light but heavier than Jones and had a lot of career sacks but more than Jones. His name is Larry English, and he is a certified bust. Strictly going by stats and "extrapolating" them forward, this guys should have been a pro bowl a few years ago. Instead, he's a bust. I know you will try to find some way to explain this away, so get to work.

Last edited by Black Bolt : 03-26-2013 at 03:38 AM.
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