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Old 04-24-2013, 10:10 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Default What Makes Dion Jordan Better Than Barkevious Mingo?

This is one I do not get, and am a little annoyed I caught it so late.

Rushing the passer is by far the most valuable thing any one of these DE/OLB prospects can bring. Jordan only has two more sacks in college without anywhere near the pressures or PDs Mingo picked up.

Jordan, like Mingo, has trouble putting on weight. Mingo went from 230 in 2011 to 240 in 2012 and still was the top DE/OLB prospect in the 40, 3-cone, vertical, and broad jump. Those 4 happen to be the combine exercises that correlate best to future pass rusher success. Jordan played 2012 at 230-235 pounds, weighed in at 5-6 pounds heavier and a couple of inches taller, and his most exciting combine number is his 40 time.

To make it worse Jordan barely tops him in tackles, is behind in TFL (29 to 26), is tied in FF, way behind in passes deflected (11 to 2) despite this supposed expertise in coverage, and it's not even a contest as far as QB pressures (27 to not even a handful).

To top it off, Jordan had shoulder labrum surgery this offseason. Shoulder injuries in almost any sport are killer, and labrum tears are still nasty business. It's not an injury I am comfortable with just brushing off, particularly since he really was not all that productive in college.

It seems to me that the choice is obvious AND that it should be obvious that Jordan is the most overrated player in this draft.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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I think it comes down to utilization. Dion Jordan already played OLB in college, which is where he should, and likely will play in the pros. Mingo was not utilized as much, but his statistics should be better at some of them you pointed out because he did play DE.

I'm not as high on Jordan as most, and I would also choose Mingo of the two if I had to take one. Jordan is better in pass coverage though, I believe that.

Mingo is being projected as an OLB when he's played DE. The main thing that stumps me is how someone can love one player and not the other. Some people have Mingo as a late first round talent, but Jordan as a top 5, that baffles me.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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You're barking up the wrong tree here.
I agree with you.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Groupthink is huge in the draftnik community.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Am I the only one who doesn't like either of them?
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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Effort.

Jordan plays hard on every snap. Mingo takes plays off.
I trust that Jordan is going to work harder than Mingo to put on weight and strength as a pro, his desire level to me is much greater than Mingo's.

They're similar players, but if only only one of them busts, I'd put money on Mingo falling short of expectations.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:57 AM    (permalink
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Jordan is every bit the athlete that Mingo and his tape is 10x better
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:13 AM    (permalink
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Am I the only one who doesn't like either of them?
I like Jordan, but not Mingo, so it's whatev. Have him 4th behind Ansah, Werner, and Carradine as far as DE's go.

Mingo can go sit in the corner with Damontre Moore, WHERE HE BELONGS.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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This is one I do not get, and am a little annoyed I caught it so late.

Rushing the passer is by far the most valuable thing any one of these DE/OLB prospects can bring. Jordan only has two more sacks in college without anywhere near the pressures or PDs Mingo picked up.

Jordan, like Mingo, has trouble putting on weight. Mingo went from 230 in 2011 to 240 in 2012 and still was the top DE/OLB prospect in the 40, 3-cone, vertical, and broad jump. Those 4 happen to be the combine exercises that correlate best to future pass rusher success. Jordan played 2012 at 230-235 pounds, weighed in at 5-6 pounds heavier and a couple of inches taller, and his most exciting combine number is his 40 time.

To make it worse Jordan barely tops him in tackles, is behind in TFL (29 to 26), is tied in FF, way behind in passes deflected (11 to 2) despite this supposed expertise in coverage, and it's not even a contest as far as QB pressures (27 to not even a handful).

To top it off, Jordan had shoulder labrum surgery this offseason. Shoulder injuries in almost any sport are killer, and labrum tears are still nasty business. It's not an injury I am comfortable with just brushing off, particularly since he really was not all that productive in college.

It seems to me that the choice is obvious AND that it should be obvious that Jordan is the most overrated player in this draft.
Except, he didn't gain weight because of his shoulder injury, he was unable to workout in the weight room for the whole season. The scouts say he will be quite capable of adding another 20-25 lbs or so, once he gets back to the weights.

You also have to take into account, the type of defense Oregon played where about 40 to 50% of the time, they dropped Jordan into coverage. It probably wasn't his choice.

Game film shows clearly, that Jordan can bend around the corner with the best of them and is a far more consistent player than Mingo at this point in their careers.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mingo but he is clearly a notch below Jordan at this stage.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Call me crazy, but I'd still take Jarvis Jones over both of them.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:41 AM    (permalink
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Jordan is every bit the athlete that Mingo and his tape is 10x better
He's invisible most of the time...so that really says a lot about Mingo lol.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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watching different tape then, he wasn't a jarvis jones level playmaker but he does do everything
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:45 AM    (permalink
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watching different tape then, he wasn't a jarvis jones level playmaker but he does do everything
Except for the whole rushing the passer part. He has one move, which is a speed rush to the outside, if he doesn't beat em hes done. If a 3-4 team takes him expecting a 10 sack guy...they're gonna be very upset.

I have no doubt he will make a career playing in coverage, but he will never be the rush guy people are expecting.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:55 AM    (permalink
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Except for the whole rushing the passer part. He has one move, which is a speed rush to the outside, if he doesn't beat em hes done. If a 3-4 team takes him expecting a 10 sack guy...they're gonna be very upset.

I have no doubt he will make a career playing in coverage, but he will never be the rush guy people are expecting.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Jordan should be a 4-3 OLB not a 3-4 OLB IMO. And you don't take those in the top 10. Mingo is the better prospect, but all the pass rushers in this class have huge bust potential. I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable taking any of them, but gun to my head I'd take Mingo all day, Ansah 2nd.
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Old 04-25-2013, 02:31 AM    (permalink
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eh, I'd just take Ansah. While we're gambling on raw potential, I'll just take the biggest physical freak. It's definitely Ansah, and Ansah's physicality is better than all of them. He's got the worst technique, but in my book, he's definitely the closest to a JPP-type. Mingo... meh. Great athlete, but doesn't have the reputation of having a great work ethic and is a liability in the run game. Jordan is a ballerina with no moves. Jones is a product of his system. Ansah is the ball of clay. I watch him and see someone who's very raw, and what holds him back is mostly a lack of experience and a still-developing feel for the game. The other three have been at it longer, so they're closer to their ceilings already. I feel like when you look at their games, you see deficiencies that aren't likely to go away, while Ansah is the one who looks the most like he just needs to be coached up.
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Old 04-25-2013, 03:17 AM    (permalink
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I actually think Jordan and Mingo are relatively close as prospects and both will go very high predominantly based on upside, however I feel comfortable in saying Jordan is the better prospect.

People talk about dropping into coverage around 50% of the time but that doesn't even do him justice. It's not like he's faking a rush then dropping into the flat like a lot of DE/OLBs. Jordan can play man coverage and hell he even played boundary CB at times.

As for his pass rushing moves, it is pretty simple. If you can't focus your whole effort on learning how to be a pass rusher then you clearly won't be as advanced as guys who do. Jordan needs more strength and a little coaching but his upside is ridiculous.

As for Mingo, a lot of people criticised his lack of production this year, however he was used pretty horribly from his perspective. This is a pure speed rusher, yet Mingo was expected on a large number of snaps to engage the OT and play contain. Turn him loose and his production spikes IMO.

Overall, I would feel more comfortable taking either of these guys than Ansah and any other DE/OLB not named Carradine. And I don't think Tank has the upside of either, but I am confident he will at very least be a solid to very good player.
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Old 04-25-2013, 04:49 AM    (permalink
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Maybe it's just me, but both of these guys seem like such weird prospects. They are so far away from the prototype that I have trouble grading them.

Jordan is absolutely enormous. He's going to struggle with leverage, and it shows most against the run when he attempts to use his quickness to get around linemen. He looks like a smooth athlete, and he looks good running 40 yards down field, but he just doesn't show up as a playmaker. As a pass rusher he actually has some good potential considering hand work. His quickness is also a major advantage. He has a good jab step. I think his potential as a pass rusher is there. Much more so than Mingo.

Mingo has all kinds of hype. He's really small for such a lanky edge player. Again, another great athlete who looks most athletic when he's celebrating by jumping up in the air and going batshit crazy after making his first impact play deep into the 3rd QT. He uses his length well and he shows good power for his size, but he's so damn raw. He has absolutely no pass rush moves. Every once in a while he'll counter his bulrush with a spin move. Other than? He's running straight ahead 75% of the time.

Both have great tools, but I'm not sure I really care for either of them. Mingo looks like a second rounder based on his potential. Jordan a late first rounder. I kinda like to see a pass rusher produce at the college level and show some sort of technique. Both Florida State guys seem superior. Ansah is a rawer version of both of these guys but has a great motor / power. He's the type of guy I'd be more inclined to gamble on.

I would hate to see my team picking in the Top 10 with Mingo and Jordan as your only pass rushing options.
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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Call me crazy, but I'd still take Jarvis Jones over both of them.
Jarvis Jones can only play in a 3-4 as an OLB who will blitz the passer on every play, you can never ask him to drop back into coverage because he doesn't have the speed to stay with any kind of receiver.
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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Jordan and the BYU kid going in Round 1 proves NFL teams learned jack **** from Mike Mamula.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:40 AM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Dion Jordan is one of the most overrated prospects in years.


- Already injured going into the draft process? Check.

- Lack of production rushing the passer in college? Check.

- Played in a weak conference with substandard OL? Check.

- Scouts touting his "versatility" means that he doesn't do any ONE thing particularly well? Check.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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I've said this before, but Jordan has the ability to run stride for stride with slot WRs. How many other 6'6 250Lb guys can do that? I really don't care if he never develops into a 10 sack guy, he has the athleticism to cover these freak TEs in the NFL 1v1 and take away their redzone threat.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by energizerbunny View Post
I've said this before, but Jordan has the ability to run stride for stride with slot WRs. How many other 6'6 250Lb guys can do that? I really don't care if he never develops into a 10 sack guy, he has the athleticism to cover these freak TEs in the NFL 1v1 and take away their redzone threat.
You're missing one critical thing here.

You're not drafting Dion Jordan to cover WRs. If you wanted that, draft a CB.

You're drafting Dion Jordan as an 3-4 OLB because ALL 3-4 OLBs spend the vast majority of their time rushing the passer or playing the run. Not in coverage. Coverage is a fraction of the responsibilities of a 3-4 OLB.

If I had my choice between a 3-4 OLB that covers slot WRs but is mediocre rushing the passer and playing the run, or a 3-4 OLB that rushes the passer like a demon and plays the run well but can't cover guys all that well, then I and every other GM is taking the latter guy every single time.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by energizerbunny View Post
I've said this before, but Jordan has the ability to run stride for stride with slot WRs. How many other 6'6 250Lb guys can do that? I really don't care if he never develops into a 10 sack guy, he has the athleticism to cover these freak TEs in the NFL 1v1 and take away their redzone threat.
That's fantastic, and none of us are denying his ability to drop in coverage, but when was the last time a coverage OLB was drafted top 10? If I draft a guy of his size, to play OLB in a 3-4, and in the top 10, he needs to be able to rush the passer, because that's what he'll be doing 80% of the time (or more in some schemes). In fact, if I were giving these 3-4 OLB prospects a grade based on only pass rush ability, athleticism, and coverage skills... I'd say pass rush ability is 50%, athleticism 45%, and coverage skills 5%. It's like a little bonus.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Here is the deal. BOTH are incredible athletes. BOTH are overrated as pure edge rushers. JORDON is ranked higher because of his proven versatility. Done.
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