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Old 05-17-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
Brothgar
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
I'm sorry, but I would take McNabb over Warner every single time. I like Kurt a lot, and I think he had some awesome years, but so did Donovan and he never, ever had WR's to throw to like Kurt did.

That being said, he still put up over 37,000 yds and 263 combined TD's in his career. Both are more than Kurt (even if you take out the rushing TD"s, he still has more throwing TD's)

I think you are shorting McNabb a little bit just based off the SuperBowl win that Kurt achieved.
I hate the argument because ultimately it means nothing to the hall of fame voters. Go through every single description of every single hall of fame QB and you won't see "he did have any good WRs." or even "without even having a pro bowl WR". McNabb is Eli Manning without the super bowls. Statistically never in the top 5 save 2004. Never the MVP never won a Super Bowl and there isn't anything special (IE went to four strait super bowls or went to 10 pro bowls) McNabb in the hall opens things up for Drew Bledsoe and half a dozen other QBs.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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I love it.

It's pretty simple to me, our opinions on this matter are pretty irrelevant. The question is, who is getting into the HOF?

And the answer is all the guys listed in the OP. Whether we agree with it or not is irrelevant, and subject to debate sure, but I'll be absolutely shocked if the players listed in the OP don't make it. They're all locks.

Now what you view as an elite qb, what criteria you use etc is all subjective and a separate debate. Some people want stats, some want wins, some want both, some view one category higher than others and adjust accordingly etc.

Long story short that argument is all subjective. There's no right or wrong answer. It's just opinions. So it's pretty pointless arguing about it.

For me personally, I view the playoffs and the regular season as 2 completely different seasons. The regular season is merely a 16 week test that allows you to get into the tournament. The tournament is the real season. That's when all bets are off, all teams are relatively the same in strength so stat padding doesn't factor in, elevated pressure and intensity of the games brings out the true stars of this league. So I weigh playoff performances and success a lot more than touchdown passes and yards in the regular season.

But at the same time, I do understand the counter argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

It really depends on what you look for. *shrug*
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Cute argument, but no. He's had two absolutely horrible (35 and 40 QB rating - say what you want about the stat, but that's terrible anyway you slice it) playoff games that got his team eliminated in their first game, plus one very mediocre game that got them out in the first round. Let's not pretend like he's been lights out in the playoffs. He's had some very nice games strung together, that have resulted in Super Bowls. That's great. For Giants fans, that's what you want. But as an individual he's been good in the playoffs but there have always been at least 5-7 QBs better than him every year in the regular season. That **** doesn't even touch elite. The farther I look into this the more I think Giants fans overrate Eli.
The facts are cute now. Cool story bro. Anyways, I'll trade having two one and done games for two epic playoff runs where the quarterback was the maestro and essentially beat four teams in a row twice. Most of them on the road. There is a reason why no one talks about his games against the Panthers and Eagles. Because what he did those two times he achieved success probably won't be rivaled again. Eli is getting in the Hall of Fame so this is a moot point anyways. You'll just have to deal with it.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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What BBD said seriously. The HOF certainly judges post-season play at a premium otherwise how can you explain someone like Terry Bradshaw being in the HOF?

Regardless of your opinion on whether or not Eli/Big Ben are elite (personally I'd say they are not) they will be in the HOF as they have two rings and played well enough to not be compared to Trent Dilfer. That's the crux of this argument.

Are there currently better QBs than those two who won't get in the HOF? Absolutely. Does that matter one iota when you have two Superbowl rings and contributed significantly in the playoffs? Nope.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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The "winner" tag is very circumstantial and one could easily point to a singular lucky play here or there or the fact that Eli's never won a playoff game when the other team has scored more than 20 points and there's some validity to those arguments. At the same time, if I had a team in and I had to win a championship or else the Monstars would take over Earth, if I had to pick between the two, I'd probably go with Eli over Brees.
lol that's almost exactly how I explain to my non-football fan friends why I love Eli so much. That if we had to win an inter-planetary game of football for Earth's survival it'd be Eli who Paul Maurice calls to be his Joe Sakic this time.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

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Old 05-17-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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At the same time, if I had a team in and I had to win a championship or else the Monstars would take over Earth, if I had to pick between the two, I'd probably go with Eli over Brees.
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lol that's almost exactly how I explain to my non-football fan friends why I love Eli so much. That if we had to win an inter-planetary game of football for Earth's survival it'd be Eli who Paul Maurice calls to be his Joe Sakic this time.
I like what is going on here very much.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Should we make a thread on our intergalaxy team?
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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i'm shocked the eli argument has gone this long. 7 qbs made the hall of fame who played between 1989-2000 (roughly a generation). you're kidding yourself if you think *less* are going to suddenly make it now, moreso when the hall has already established that actually being an elite player while you played is irrelevant, as long as you eventually get the right numbers (hi there, curtis). what i think will be shocking is when a guy like tony romo starts getting serious consideration. if i had to guess, you're all seriously overestimating what the hall will care about for some of these guys, and as little as i might personally think they deserve it at this point, eli and ben are pretty foregone conclusions, imo.
dunno, but is anyone actually arguing that eli and ben wont make the HOF? it's pretty obvious that they will.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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i assumed someone was, since people were still arguing that he would. i can't imagine nfldc would pointlessly circlejerk.
i dunno. it started with "eli isn't an elite QB" and then giants fans just started saying "he's definitely going to be in the HOF" as if that added anything to the argument.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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As long as SWDC exists, these arguments will always happen:

Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning
Is Eli/Ben good?
Is the Combine Overrated?
Next Year's Draft Class is Better Than This Years
Overrated/Underrated

Death, taxes, and those threads are the only things certain in life.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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i dunno. it started with "eli isn't an elite QB" and then giants fans just started saying "he's definitely going to be in the HOF" as if that added anything to the argument.
It actually started with folks like you saying he didn't deserve to go to the Hall because he was never elite. At which point we giants fans pointed that he's always been elite late in game and in big moments like his two playoff runs, and that that elite play is why he's a hall of famer. But whatevs, I'm sure if Aaron Rodgers keeps racking up major fantasy football points he'll get into the hall to eventually.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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nah, we haven't done a brady/peyton thread in a while. i think it's been supplanted by "somethingsomethinghopefullyyoudon'tnoticethatiwant totalkaboutthepackerssomething"
Add the 9ers and Jay cutler to the list of topics that get rehashed inexplicable often.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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As long as SWDC exists, these arguments will always happen:

Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning
Is Eli/Ben good?
Is the Combine Overrated?
Next Year's Draft Class is Better Than This Years
Overrated/Underrated

Death, taxes, and those threads are the only things certain in life.

What else are people going to talk about? I rarely post in the general forum. In fact this is my first post here in a long time. But these are the topics when you get football fans of all the teams in one room.

If you want different or in depth posts. Then that's where I post my game break downs in the Xs and Os thread.

We get D unit to stop by. We have a very cool 9ers fan come by as well. So that thread actually provides value. How many other fans are interested in that? How many can actually understand it and want to learn more of it?

So in the mean time, people avoid threads like that from my experience and stick to topics you above.

But if people want to really talk football come to our section in the Xs and Os thread.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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It actually started with folks like you saying he didn't deserve to go to the Hall because he was never elite. At which point we giants fans pointed that he's always been elite late in game and in big moments like his two playoff runs, and that that elite play is why he's a hall of famer. But whatevs, I'm sure if Aaron Rodgers keeps racking up major fantasy football points he'll get into the hall to eventually.
thats just a personal opinion on what i think the hall of fame should be. you can't argue that that is wrong. the reason for me saying that is because i don't think eli is elite and then giants fans evevtually started saying "well he's going to the HOF". which was what i just said...
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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i dunno. it started with "eli isn't an elite QB" and then giants fans just started saying "he's definitely going to be in the HOF" as if that added anything to the argument.
That's cute. It started bc you said a bunch of inaccurate nonsense about Eli that triggered some fans to respond.

You don't feel Eli is elite, and that's fine. But your arguments for why were absolutely terrible.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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No more than six.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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thats just a personal opinion on what i think the hall of fame should be. you can't argue that that is wrong. the reason for me saying that is because i don't think eli is elite and then giants fans evevtually started saying "well he's going to the HOF". which was what i just said...
Are you being purposefully dense or have you really still not managed to follow the argument? I mean I guess I shouldn't expect too much from someone who almost burned their entirely family to the ground because people on the internet told you to put aluminum foil in the microwave, but I wanted to believe that was just because you were still a pre-teen.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
Are you being purposefully dense or have you really still not managed to follow the argument? I mean I guess I shouldn't expect too much from someone who almost burned their entirely family to the ground because people on the internet told you to put aluminum foil in the microwave, but I wanted to believe that was just because you were still a pre-teen.
lol, dense? i followed the argument but the point of that post was not to give a detailed account of everything that has been said during the dicussion. i was talking only about people using "eli is going to be in the HOF" as an argument.

it would help to actually know what im talking about before calling what im saying 'dense'.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
NY+Giants=NYG
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i would, but interacting with a bunch of giants fans all at once takes a certain mindset that i'm not always capable of.

i wish those threads still got posted out on the front side. i know hardly anyone bothers reading when there's more than 6 words, but it's too bad that value is lost or hidden.
Well, usually in that thread it unmasks any kind of homerism because you're talking Xs and Os. I don't care about stats or anything like that. At the end of the day, it's the details of the game which you either know or willing to learn and talk about if not.

That's the reason why I created the thread and posted my game breakdowns. In fact, it's a good way to learn about other teams. You can get to see the beauty of other schemes and how creative other systems are.

Well that's on them I guess, if people don't want to read more than 6 words. That's why I usually stay in our section. There are a few members on here that know that their stuff and are fun to talk about. I think one of the best is the niners fan. Vay I think his handle starts with.

If you are willing to talk about what truly makes the game interesting then you should stop by. I am not sure what team you root for but I can focus on that scheme if you wish.

At the end of the day, if you want a big time change in topics, and talk about what makes the game fun in my opinion, then stop by.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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lol, dense? i followed the argument but the point of that post was not to give a detailed account of everything that has been said during the dicussion. i was talking only about people using "eli is going to be in the HOF" as an argument.

it would help to actually know what im talking about before calling what im saying 'dense'.
No one in this thread argued that Eli was elite because he was going to the Hall of Fame. In fact the closest you'll find to that argument is my posts were I said Eli was going to the Hall of Fame because of his elite play. Those are two completely different arguments that you've failed to differentiate time and time again. That's pretty dense bro.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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donkeys fan. i'll have to remember that for next year. those are the kinds of threads i miss from here. when the 'thoughts' threads were more than a few controversial opinions and were actually worth reading.

fwiw, the first bit of my response was just making fun of a few of the giants posters, not really a jibe at y'all as a group.
No worries. My old computer was off line for couple of years so all my football notes and breakdowns were there. BBD convinced me to post them all since I had my computer up and running again. So I did and created a Xs and Os thread.

Usually I focus on our defense, specifically our offense, but I did break down some plays by the niners and their offense. I will continue to watch and when I find interesting stuff I will post it.

That's why I usually just stay in our section because we have a group there that appreciates that kind of hard work and detailed posts. And recently, some others as well from other fan bases on here. So I will continue posting in that thread, in our section.

So feel free to stop by. It's an open invite to all if they are willing to learn the details of the game.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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No one in this thread argued that Eli was elite because he was going to the Hall of Fame. In fact the closest you'll find to that argument is my posts were I said Eli was going to the Hall of Fame because of his elite play. Those are two completely different arguments that you've failed to differentiate time and time again. That's pretty dense bro.
*sigh*

Again....try understand what I said before calling it dense.

I never said people were using Eli getting into the HOF as an indication that he is elite. I was talking about people saying the point is irrelevant because he is getting into the HOF. For example, Ness saying "Eli is getting in the Hall of Fame so this is a moot point anyways." How exactly does him getting that honour make the discussion of whether or not he is elite, irrelevant? It doesn't.

Seriously Rosebud, stop being so dense bro.

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and i just realized SP is a packers fan. apologies, that last comment was not a directed slur at *most* packers fans.
What are you trying to say here, njx?!?!

I dunno, but i'm like the exact opposite of a Packers homer. Well probably not opposite, i'm not negative towards them for no reason, but I don't see anything with green tinted glasses.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
donkeys fan. i'll have to remember that for next year. those are the kinds of threads i miss from here. when the 'thoughts' threads were more than a few controversial opinions and were actually worth reading.

fwiw, the first bit of my response was just making fun of a few of the giants posters, not really a jibe at y'all as a group.
No one reads my thoughts threads anymore. Probably bc they dislike me for trolling them in the off topic forum.

That and I just don't have time to write them up anymore.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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While I'm loathe to defend Ness, maybe he said that because this is a thread called "How many future HOF QBs are currently playing"? So the discussion of whether Eli is elite is actually inconsequential to this thread. *shrug* Ness's here often enough to speak for himself. But neither your summary of how this thread got to being about eli nor your "arguments" have been accurate or well thought through.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Eli and Big Ben might have more rings, but they have also been on great teams...
cause they did nothing to make those teams great....yawn....
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