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Old 05-17-2013, 12:36 PM    (permalink
SuperPacker
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
While I'm loathe to defend Ness, maybe he said that because this is a thread called "How many future HOF QBs are currently playing"? So the discussion of whether Eli is elite is actually inconsequential to this thread. *shrug* Ness's here often enough to speak for himself. But neither your summary of how this thread got to being about eli nor your "arguments" have been accurate or well thought through.
But the discussion was about whether or not Eli is elite. BBD said the exact same thing. That's what I was talking about. How is that dense?

It wasn't meant to be a summary, so....?

That's cool. I wouldn't expect you to think any argument against Eli Manning was well thought through.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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You know what always annoys me about the "he was on a great team" argument?

Eli and Ben's teams weren't anymore talented than the qbs they beat in the playoffs. In fact, you can strongly argue that they weren't as talented as the teams they beat.

Eli beat the undefeated Patriots, and his 2nd SB team had the worst run game in the league and the 27th ranked defense in the league.

Whenever I hear arguments that he was "carried" to his SBs I just shake my head bc of how incredibly ignorant they are.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
donkeys fan. i'll have to remember that for next year. those are the kinds of threads i miss from here. when the 'thoughts' threads were more than a few controversial opinions and were actually worth reading.

fwiw, the first bit of my response was just making fun of a few of the giants posters, not really a jibe at y'all as a group.

You could easily handle all of us at the same time.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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You know what always annoys me about the "he was on a great team" argument?

Eli and Ben's teams weren't anymore talented than the qbs they beat in the playoffs. In fact, you can strongly argue that they weren't as talented as the teams they beat.

Eli beat the undefeated Patriots, and his 2nd SB team had the worst run game in the league and the 27th ranked defense in the league.

Whenever I hear arguments that he was "carried" to his SBs I just shake my head bc of how incredibly ignorant they are.
It bothers me too, and I'm not even a Giants fan.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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But the discussion was about whether or not Eli is elite. BBD said the exact same thing. That's what I was talking about. How is that dense?

It wasn't meant to be a summary, so....?

That's cool. I wouldn't expect you to think any argument against Eli Manning was well thought through.
In a thread that the discussion was off topic to, you can't let yourself get so easily distracted when people come in and argue about the thread while you're arguing about something else. And you're summary was inaccurate.

There's plenty of reasonable arguments about Eli Manning if you wanted to talk about how the complex and downfield system Gilbride runs plays exactly into Eli's strengths at reading the field and fitting the ball down field. And how that surely plays a part in why Eli has always been absolutely lethal running the two minute drill. Or about why as the leader of the team he has been unable to get the giants to sustain a stretch of dominance where they don't just play to the level of their opposition, at least since Plax shot himself. But these aren't the arguments you're making.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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In a thread that the discussion was off topic to, you can't let yourself get so easily distracted when people come in and argue about the thread while you're arguing about something else. And you're summary was inaccurate.

There's plenty of reasonable arguments about Eli Manning if you wanted to talk about how the complex and downfield system Gilbride runs plays exactly into Eli's strengths at reading the field and fitting the ball down field. And how that surely plays a part in why Eli has always been absolutely lethal running the two minute drill. Or about why as the leader of the team he has been unable to get the giants to sustain a stretch of dominance where they don't just play to the level of their opposition, at least since Plax shot himself. But these aren't the arguments you're making.
My god. Read the actual posts. They were about the "Is Eli elite?" discussion. Ness directly quotes an argument about why Eli isn't elite, and then goes on to say "it's a moot point anyway". BBD says "our opinion on this is irrelevant...he's going to the HOF". I'm pretty sure "this" is referring to the Eli/Elite? discussion as it makes no sense if it's about what the title of the thread says. I'm not even joking now, why are you being so dense? It's ridiculous.

Lolwut? My main point about Eli not being elite was that outside of a few playoff games his play doesn't deserve giving him the "elite" title. How does that not fit in with "unable to get the giants to sustain a stretch of dominance where they don't just play to the level of their opposition"? Eli not playing at an elite level consistently is OBVIOUSLY the reason for that...Are you just trolling? Why are you being this stupid?
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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i could totally take that the wrong way.
That's why I worded it the way I did.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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That's why I worded it the way I did.
Awesome smokescreen.


For njx, horrible sabotage.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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My god. Read the actual posts. They were about the "Is Eli elite?" discussion. Ness directly quotes an argument about why Eli isn't elite, and then goes on to say "it's a moot point anyway". BBD says "our opinion on this is irrelevant...he's going to the HOF". I'm pretty sure "this" is referring to the Eli/Elite? discussion as it makes no sense if it's about what the title of the thread says. I'm not even joking now, why are you being so dense? It's ridiculous.

Lolwut? My main point about Eli not being elite was that outside of a few playoff games his play doesn't deserve giving him the "elite" title. How does that not fit in with "unable to get the giants to sustain a stretch of dominance where they don't just play to the level of their opposition"? Eli not playing an elite level consistently is OBVIOUSLY the reason for that...Are you just trolling? Why are you being this stupid?
I really do my best to make a habit out of not reading Ness's posts, but BBD's just saying that your opinion on that discussion didn't matter to this topic, because it doesn't. This is a thread about the Hall of Fame, Eli is going to the hall of fame, whether you think his play has been elite or not.

And no, Eli and his clutch play has been the single most consistent component of our team. With the exception of a handful of stinkers over the years, which has happened to all of the other greats as well, Eli's play was not the reason we are so up and down. Our Defense blowing coverages and playing like **** unless they're all super fired up has been a big part of our inconsistency, our wideouts getting sloppy against "lesser" opponents has been a big part of our inconsistency, our OL, and by proxy our running game, going to **** have been a big part of our inconsistency, but Eli's play hasn't. Now I don't really think there's too much eli could do about some of those things regardless of how great his leadership was, but I'm biased so that's a discussion we can have. But if you are trying to paint Eli's play as the center point of that inconsistency, that's such a fundamentally flawed understanding that no discussion is even possible because that's simply not what happened.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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that's officially the worst visual i've had all week.
Psh, Scotty's super cuddly, Forenci might just actually be a girl and NYG would be the best creepy old guy shouting advice from the corner you've ever had.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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that's officially the worst visual i've had all week.
picture me in a Knicks jersey...naked.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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picture me in a Knicks jersey...naked.
And boom goes the dynamite.

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Old 05-17-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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I really do my best to make a habit out of not reading Ness's posts, but BBD's just saying that your opinion on that discussion didn't matter to this topic, because it doesn't. This is a thread about the Hall of Fame, Eli is going to the hall of fame, whether you think his play has been elite or not.

And no, Eli and his clutch play has been the single most consistent component of our team. With the exception of a handful of stinkers over the years, which has happened to all of the other greats as well, Eli's play was not the reason we are so up and down. Our Defense blowing coverages and playing like **** unless they're all super fired up has been a big part of our inconsistency, our wideouts getting sloppy against "lesser" opponents has been a big part of our inconsistency, our OL, and by proxy our running game, going to **** have been a big part of our inconsistency, but Eli's play hasn't. Now I don't really think there's too much eli could do about some of those things regardless of how great his leadership was, but I'm biased so that's a discussion we can have. But if you are trying to paint Eli's play as the center point of that inconsistency, that's such a fundamentally flawed understanding that no discussion is even possible because that's simply not what happened.
We're now arguing Eli is elite in the regular season as well?

Giants fans...

You're either trolling or you're just a blind/crazy homer. I'm going to stop.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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You really should, cause you're only making it worse for yourself.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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picture me in a Knicks jersey...naked.
Oh god lord no! That's not appropriate for this thread. One can lock this thread for such bad mental images. Eww. At least they are not eliminated!
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Don't lie NYG, when we have the traditional Giants Forum orgy to celebrate a new member, you shout your tips from the corner with too much zest and accuracy to try and pretend you don't have a hard time picture bbd's scrawny, sober, brown ass popping out from under his jersey.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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Don't lie NYG, when we have the traditional Giants Forum orgy to celebrate a new member, you shout your tips from the corner with too much zest and accuracy to try and pretend you don't have a hard time picture bbd's scrawny, sober, brown ass popping out from under his jersey.
Ekkkkkkk..Lord, that's a down right scary visual created by your improper use of imagery. This when to be general and not use such descriptive words.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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For QBs drafted before 2006: Probably 6.

For QBs since 2006: Too soon to say. But I think eventually there will be 2 or 3 from the 2006-12 drafts.

Hall of Fame QBs and when they were drafted: (Since 1979)
1979 - Joe Montana
1983 - John Elway, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly
1984 - Steve Young (USFL supplemental draft)
1989 - Troy Aikman

Future HOF QBs?
1991 - Brett Favre
1998 - Peyton Manning
2000 - Tom Brady
2001 - Drew Brees
2004 - Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger
2005 - Aaron Rodgers

Donovan McNabb was 1999, Kurt Warner went undrafted in 1994. Young and Kelly made their NFL debuts in 1985 and 1986.


HOF careers can also blossom very late:

Steve Young in his 20s:
29 starts, 5,895 yds, 34 TDs, 27 INTs

Warren Moon in his 20s:
30 starts, 7-23 record, 6,047 yds, 27 TDs, 33 INTs.

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Old 05-17-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Let's clear the air as to my feelings regarding Manning jr. Eli Manning is going to the Hall of Fame, which denotes he was elite at some point in his career. A couple of people are trying to paint this black and white picture that he didn't finish in the top five in MVP running ever or didn't put up this many yards or whatever, was one and done a couple of times, is inconsistent, whatever. Personally seeing Eli's complete body of work, those two Super Bowl runs combined with pretty good season after season performance the last few years have pretty much sealed the deal. Is he an elite quarterback as of now? I say yes. Any franchise with Eli Manning automatically elevates to playoff contender. For what Eli hasn't accomplished in the aesthetically pleasing categories of MVP contender or having a team going 15-1 or whatever, he's made up for it with his clutch play over the years and showing up big at crucial moments, in effect always making the Giants a dangerous opponent despite the circumstances.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Eli is elite late in games and in the playoffs, but the best QBs also are consistent in the regular season. Peyton and Brady are locks each year to get to the playoffs. Its a question with Eli. He still is HoF for his rings and postseason play, but he still needs some good years to be a lock for me.

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Old 05-17-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Eli is elite late in games and in the playoffs, but the best QBs also are consistent in the regular season. Peyton and Brady are locks each year to get to the playoffs. Its a question with Eli. He still is HoF for his rings and postseason play, but he still needs some good years to be a lock for me.



TNewman is still at a top 5 Corner. We need more top 10 corner debates.
Yeah, but we could also say that Peyton is a lock to choke every single season once he's in the playoffs.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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I don't believe in being clutch or in choking. I think these types of things are attributable to coaching and randomness.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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I don't believe in being clutch or in choking. I think these types of things are attributable to coaching and randomness.
I'd tend to agree with this, but I don't think it's as concrete as that.

Eli Manning has done better in the past in those situations, but definitely a part of it will be down to coincidence and circumstance.

Peyton Manning:
Super Bowl Champion
Super Bowl MVP
1st draft pick/elite prospect
4x MVP

He's had an enormous amount of pressure on him since the moment he stepped onto the field. I have a hard time believing all of a sudden just another playoff game is too big of a moment for him. You just don't get to where he is now without being mentally tough; that's something i've always believed.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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I don't believe in being clutch or in choking. I think these types of things are attributable to coaching and randomness.
I don't know man. You might be partially right with the coaching part, but there are some players that just don't want the ball in their hands when it counts and others that demand it or are not scared of that moment.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Haven't posted yet in this thread but I've been reading it a bit. For myself, I'd say Tom Brady and Peyton Manning get in on the first ballot, Brees and Rodgers are on their way to being first-ballot inductees, and Eli will get in, but not in his year of eligibility ( - yet. If he puts up a few more years where he's clearly one of the best in the league, he may. He's had some huge moments.), and I think in the coming decades we're going to hear endless griping from Steelers fans when Ben keeps getting passed over. If he wins another Super Bowl I think he gets in, but at this point I think he's in the "really good but not great" category and the off-the-field stuff has definitely tainted his legacy.

That's the old guard, though - Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, RGIII and Kaepernick all made huge splashes last year and in their first years of leading their teams pretty much made HOF-level entrances to the NFL. Cam Newton, too, but he really hasn't got the press love yet, and that's big. Those five are going to be the ones to watch over the next ten years or so, as far as this conversation goes.

Edit: thinking about it, Brees might well be a first-ballot inductee already. He's doing things in the passing game that really haven't been done before, and has a Super Bowl victory, too. That's the kind of thing that gets someone in on the first ballot.

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