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Old 02-08-2014, 08:47 AM    (permalink
Miaoww
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I can't stand Bridgewater because he's a Miami boy who constantly disrespects the U and it's fanbase.

That said, he's the standout QB in this draft.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Miaoww View Post
I can't stand Bridgewater because he's a Miami boy who constantly disrespects the U and it's fanbase.

That said, he's the standout QB in this draft.
But you guys had Jacory Harris instead.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Miaoww View Post
I can't stand Bridgewater because he's a Miami boy who constantly disrespects the U and it's fanbase.

That said, he's the standout QB in this draft.
What fan base?
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Bridgewater had me when he took that kill shot from Bostic in the Sugar Bowl, picked himself up and drove his team down the field for the TD, setting the tone for the rest of the game. Logan Thomas was knocked out of his game on a hit not nearly as vicious... and he's 6'6", 250. Bridgewater may not be built like a tight end, but I don't question his toughness one bit.
Yeah that was the first game I watched of him and when you combine that hit with the strike he threw to convert a 3rd & 14 a few plays later it was a good first impression.
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Old 02-08-2014, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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But you guys had Jacory Harris instead.
Ah unfortunately we had a white Head Coach.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Camp Arm View Post
Oh yes he does easily infact, pocket presence is one of manziels biggest weaknesses especially when his offensive line will have 3 or 4 first rounders on it when it's all said and done.

Don't confuse pocket presence to scrambling ability, two completely different things.
I'm talking about his ability to navigate the pocket, and he's considerably better than Bridgewater in that area. You've watched Manziel, right? Not just highlights?
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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It really boils down to "upside." Bridgewater doesn't have any standout abilities. Manziel is flashy. Bortles has that size/speed/arm strength combo. Derek Carr has great arm talent. Bridgewater is just a better all all round prospect.

It's the exact same reason Rodgers fell when he came out. He wasn't considered impressively athletic, was considered accurate with good but not great arm strength, kind of short and frail, etc. But he was productive, tough, and nuanced in his game. People seem to overlook the X's and O's and drool over singular "special" attributes.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E_Bird View Post
I'm talking about his ability to navigate the pocket, and he's considerably better than Bridgewater in that area. You've watched Manziel, right? Not just highlights?
Navigate the pocker, really. Let's look at some of his highlight plays.

Perfect pocket where the hell was he going.



Good pocket again, runs into his own line



Left tackle does the right thing driving the pass rusher back, nearly runs into a sack. You don't run to your blindside



Manziel doesn't navigate the pocket that requires you wanting to stay in it, he wants to bail the first chance he get's

Last edited by Camp Arm : 02-08-2014 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Camp Arm View Post
Navigate the pocker, really. Let's look at some of his highlight plays.

Perfect pocket where the hell was he going.



Good pocket again, runs into his own line



Left tackle does the right thing driving the pass rusher back, nearly runs into a sack. You don't run to your blindside



Manziel doesn't navigate the pocket that requires you wanting to stay in it, he wants to bail the first chance he get's
This is for anyone that disputes the fact that Manziel runs out of clean pockets. It is worth noting that the first clip is from last year and he did get better at it this year but it's still something he clearly needs to work on.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Camp Arm View Post
Navigate the pocker, really. Let's look at some of his highlight plays.

Perfect pocket where the hell was he going.



Good pocket again, runs into his own line



Left tackle does the right thing driving the pass rusher back, nearly runs into a sack. You don't run to your blindside



Manziel doesn't navigate the pocket, he wants to bail the first chance he get's
Showing one-off examples where he feels the pressure before it's there. Tom Brady is one of the best QB in the NFL at navigating the pocket, but sometimes he feels phantom pressure and ducks when there's no one there. To say that he bails the first chance he "get's" [sic] is either dishonest or stupid. Does he look to escape the pocket to buy extra time for his WR's - that often results in big plays - yes. It's a strength. Like it's a strength for Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben, and Russell Wilson. Most of his damage, though, is done from in the pocket. He also pushes the ball deep much better than Bridgewater. On deep passes (over 20 yards) from the pocket, Manziel completed 59% of his passes and 56% overall on passes over 20 yards. By comparison, Bridgewater's completed 51% of his passes over 20 yards. Manziel also through deep more often (18.69% of his passes traveled over 20 yards - Bridgewater's number is 14.63%).
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Camp Arm View Post
Navigate the pocker, really. Let's look at some of his highlight plays.

Perfect pocket where the hell was he going.



Good pocket again, runs into his own line



Left tackle does the right thing driving the pass rusher back, nearly runs into a sack. You don't run to your blindside



Manziel doesn't navigate the pocket that requires you wanting to stay in it, he wants to bail the first chance he get's
And on that play against Alabama, Manziel was getting quick pressure up the middle.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E_Bird View Post
And on that play against Alabama, Manziel was getting quick pressure up the middle.
It was picked up late for sure but it was picked up and all Manziel had to do was shuffle slightly to the left while keeping his eyes downfield.

Manziel is nothing like Rodgers or Wilson and those comparisons are so terrible. His nearest comparison is Brett Favre except without nearly the arm talent, a frailer build and a propensity towards holding the ball far away from his body. And let me tell you, even as a diehard Packers fan who watched Favre growing up.. NO ONE wants Brett Favre unless he has the unbelievable arm that he had. Manziel has a decent arm but it's not great and he throws a lot of passes that hang in the air.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E_Bird View Post
And on that play against Alabama, Manziel was getting quick pressure up the middle.
This is an example of dealing with quick pressure up the middle



Play action so he has his back to the defense see's and feels quickly and steps in the pocket and throws a strike.



Quick pressure up the middle but there is no panic, just a step to the right to avoid with his eyes down field the whole time.

it's not wow or flashy but it's great pocket navigation.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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It was picked up late for sure but it was picked up and all Manziel had to do was shuffle slightly to the left while keeping his eyes downfield.

Manziel is nothing like Rodgers or Wilson and those comparisons are so terrible. His nearest comparison is Brett Favre except without nearly the arm talent, a frailer build and a propensity towards holding the ball far away from his body. And let me tell you, even as a diehard Packers fan who watched Favre growing up.. NO ONE wants Brett Favre unless he has the unbelievable arm that he had. Manziel has a decent arm but it's not great and he throws a lot of passes that hang in the air.
Is this a joke post? Favre's strengths and Manziel's strengths are completely different. It's like saying Marino and Manning are similar because they're both pocket passers.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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This is an example of dealing with quick pressure up the middle



Play action so he has his back to the defense see's and feels quickly and steps in the pocket and throws a strike.



Quick pressure up the middle but there is no panic, just a step to the right to avoid with his eyes down field the whole time.

it's not wow or flashy but it's great pocket navigation.
That's not pressure up the middle; it's from his blind side. And he has an entire clean pocket waiting for him; in Manziel's case, the line was crumbling, so he attempted to escape out the back door. Also, we're comparing games from Alabama and North Carolina. Bridgewater didn't have to carry his team against superior competition. His team was better than the team they were playing in every game this season (with the possible exception of UCF - debatable). Manziel allowed his team to be competitive in the SEC with one of the worst D's in the nation. Bridgewater could not have made that A&M team competitive against Alabama or Auburn. To raise your team's level that much at the QB position, you have to make plays outside the play, and no one does that better than Manziel. Saying he lacks pocket presence, because he looks to buy time with his legs more than Bridgewater is a silly way to evaluate pocket presence. Aaron Rodgers takes more sacks than Manning or Brady, but he also creates more big plays down the field. And come playoff time, there's a premium on the ability to make the play outside the play - a big reason Kaepernick played better against the Seahawks in Seattle than Manning did on a neutral field.

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Old 02-08-2014, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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It really boils down to "upside." Bridgewater doesn't have any standout abilities. Manziel is flashy. Bortles has that size/speed/arm strength combo. Derek Carr has great arm talent. Bridgewater is just a better all all round prospect.

It's the exact same reason Rodgers fell when he came out. He wasn't considered impressively athletic, was considered accurate with good but not great arm strength, kind of short and frail, etc. But he was productive, tough, and nuanced in his game. People seem to overlook the X's and O's and drool over singular "special" attributes.
The draft will always value upside and tools. It makes athletes rise over football players. It's hard to pick out and evaluate the nuances so people latch onto tools, myself included. Even some people couldn't see what made Luck special because he didn't have some extreme tool.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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That's not pressure up the middle; it's from his blind side. And he has an entire clean pocket waiting for him; in Manziel's case, the line was crumbling, so he attempted to escape out the back door. Also, we're comparing games from Alabama and North Carolina. Bridgewater didn't have to carry his team against superior competition. His team was better than the team they were playing in every game this season (with the possible exception of UCF - debatable). Manziel allowed his team to be competitive in the SEC with one of the worst D's in the nation. Bridgewater could not have made that A&M team competitive against Alabama or Auburn. To raise your team's level that much at the QB position, you have to make plays outside the play, and no one does that better than Manziel. Saying he lacks pocket presence, because he looks to buy time with his legs more than Bridgewater is a silly way to evaluate pocket presence. Aaron Rodgers takes more sacks than Manning or Brady, but he also creates more big plays down the field. And come playoff time, there's a premium on the ability to make the play outside the play - a big reason Kaepernick played better against the Seahawks in Seattle than Manning did on a neutral field.
They were both pressure's up the middle from the defensive tackles, it's clear to see. He avoided the rush and used the rest of the pocket to make a play. Manziel's pocket didn't crumble in that clip he bailed too quickly and ran to his blind with no idea what was happening there. All Manziel had to do was move to the right like Bridgewater did not turn is back to the defense. If you think that is good pocket presence i don't know what to tell you.

And who told you that you have to make plays outside the pocket to raise a teams level? Never heard that before. A QB can raise his teams level playing exclusively from the pocket if he is good enough.

And you have absolutely no way to prove whether bridgewater would have or not have been competitive against those teams so it's a mute point and it simply doesn't matter projecting them to the NFL. You are evaluating what skills project to the NFL not who it came against. If you are talking about a heismen trophy it would be relevant. It didn't matter who he was playing against those skills translate, you would have a point if he was standing in a clean pocket for 10 seconds then throwing the ball.

I'll say it again Manziel scrambling to buy time is not pocket presence when he runs out of clean pockets. That is scrambling and it's different.

You have brought up Rodgers twice for some reason when Bridgewater resembles him alot more than Manziel does. Rodgers does not bail on clean pocket's, he may hold the ball longer but he rarely scrambles around while doing it.

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Old 02-08-2014, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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The draft will always value upside and tools. It makes athletes rise over football players. It's hard to pick out and evaluate the nuances so people latch onto tools, myself included. Even some people couldn't see what made Luck special because he didn't have some extreme tool.
Upside and tools is great for Defensive linemen but at QB the real upside is from the neck up not the neck down. Aslong as they have a good enough arm then upside does not trump skills and polish at that position in my opinion. Other positions it does.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater buys time with his legs, but you rarely if ever see him take off past the LOS.

Teddy almost exclusively runs out of the pocket to throw and makes a deliberate attempt not to open himself up to unnecessary hits.

When shorter QBs scramble so much to get outside of the pocket, it can be an indicator they're having trouble seeing downfield.

Even Russell Wilson has this issue. For a short QB the looks downfield are cleaner outside the pocket than they are between the tackles.

Manziel did play more under control after the snap in 2013 than last season, but he still doesn't have exceptional pocket presence.

Sometimes you watch Manziel and think the kid is making some plays harder than they need to be.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Sometimes you watch Manziel and think the kid is making some plays harder than they need to be.
You hit the nail on the head there.

I just think it's in his DNA to want to get out and play back yard football, it's a gift and a curse.

I'm not saying that gift can't pay off big in the NFL either but at same time you have to let that come out as part of a controlled offense.

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Old 02-08-2014, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Is this a joke post? Favre's strengths and Manziel's strengths are completely different. It's like saying Marino and Manning are similar because they're both pocket passers.
People compare Manziel to Favre/Romo/Tarkenton because all these QBs are at their best making off-schedule plays, when the original playcall breaks down after the snap.

None of these guys are 3-, 5-, 7-step drop, plant the back foot and drive the ball on a timing route downfield type of QBs.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Johnny Manziel is the Jason Williams of football.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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I still think the best comparison for Johnny Manziel is the Madden version of Mike McMahon. Lot of raw physical tools but they're gonna take awhile to polish into something productive.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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People compare Manziel to Favre/Romo/Tarkenton because all these QBs are at their best making off-schedule plays, when the original playcall breaks down after the snap.

None of these guys are 3-, 5-, 7-step drop, plant the back foot and drive the ball on a timing route downfield type of QBs.
Well I think people really overstate the case with Favre. He could improvise some, but he was a surgeon in that west coast offense. He was really amazing at the timing aspect and that combined with his legendary arm made for some of the best throws of all time. I think he would get himself into a lot more trouble when he would start trying to do too much. When he was really in the groove from about 94-99 he would destroy teams with those underneath timing routes. Then he'd have the traditional plays designed to get him rolling out. I think the memory of Favre as a gunslinger has really overshadowed how amazing he was in that offense. It's the most complex offense in football and he ran it like a wizard for two decades.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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You hit the nail on the head there.

I just think it's in his DNA to want to get out and play back yard football, it's a gift and a curse.

I'm not saying that gift can't pay off big in the NFL either but at same time you have to let that come out as part of a controlled offense.

Yeah, I think any QB with Manziel's type of mobility has a really difficult time reining it in, particularly when they've been so successful running when they felt like it, not always when they had to for most of their careers.

If you study Manziel, he's pretty much been playing the same way since HS when he was a TOTAL freakshow in Texas. He could throw the ball or take off for a 60+ yard TD run on any given play.

He was such a freak in HS that a school like Texas thought there's no way he could be that good in college.

His game is more controlled now, but I still Manziel believes he's at HIS best when defenses are forced to react to him on the move, instead of the other way around.

Very few QBs are able to buy time like Manziel and if it's a jailbreak after the snap, who else would you want back there other than Johnny Football??

But at the next level teams are going to bluff him to into scrambling prematurely and if he doesn't learn to get rid of the ball instead of running around and around, he's going to get knocked out.

Going through progressions quickly and reading defenses are still the bedrock of every NFL QB's game.

When RG3 and Kirk Cousins were rookies, one of the early stories out of Redskins TC was that Cousins was able to get through his first 3 reads so quickly that he was able to come back to his initial FIRST read and make a completion.

Griffin at the time struggled to get past his 2nd read before the Oline protection collapsed.

RG3 was still able to make more plays than Cousins because of his mobility and superior arm strength. But last season after missing the entire offseason and TC, Griffin's struggles operating inside the pocket were exposed.

As a Skins fan, I believe Robert will get better, but I suspect Manziel is going to have similar issues early in his career.

Or hell I could be totally wrong.

Manziel's game may not have to change much at all in the pros, except for those crazy Houdini scrambles. Manziel's stop-start ability and short area quickness are superior to RG3's, so maybe it's harder to gameplan against him outside the pocket.

I just see more question marks with Manziel and view him as a more raw prospect than Bridgewater.

It's not a boom-bust situation with Manziel, and I like the description of him as a 'clutch Tony Romo'.

But it's easier for me to see Teddy developing into a very good/elite NFL QB based on what he was already doing at Louisville.
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