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Old 03-19-2014, 01:53 AM    (permalink
gpngc
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Originally Posted by holt_bruce81 View Post
http://**************.com/video/tedd...ncinnati-2013/

7:05 great deep throw, better defensive play. - ball fluttered in the air, dropped down too far to the sideline and was incomplete...
9:56 he does his best Manziel. 2nd one was not anywhere close to a deep ball, come on. It was a desperation heave. I know this is his signature play but it speaks to his improv skills - not his deep ball.
10:38 good deep throw this is a six yard hitch...

http://**************.com/video/tedd...ida-2012-bowl/

0:08 great deep throw. - he's throwing on the run and all-arms it...
0:48 nice 20 yard strike - this is an 18 yard dig...
5:35 nice 20 yard throw - not a deep ball, it's a red zone touch throw and poor placement...
6:00 nice 25 yard throw - this is a good throw, but it's 20 yards in the air... i don't consider that a deep ball because it's not very deep

http://**************.com/video/tedd...kentucky-2013/

2:40 nice throw, better defensive play
5:02 great 25 yard strike while on the run
5:23 great 30 yard throw
5:58 25 yard throw

http://**************.com/video/tedd...-houston-2013/

5:00 40 yard throw drops it right in the receivers gut.
5:35 30 yard strike


Bridgewater's deep throw is more than good enough for the NFL Level. Teddy should be a top 5 pick, he has a quick release, very good pocket presence and can extend plays with his feet while keeping his eyes downfield. He does a really nice job of throwing on the run and squaring his shoulders. And he's just an intelligent Quarterback who can hit his 2nd and 3rd options. He is an "all-arm" Quarterback who doesn't use his lower body like he should, but that can be taught.

In my opinion other than Andrew Luck, Bridgewater is the best Quarterback to come out in the last 5 years. And I find it odd that he decided not to wear gloves at his proday. He always wears gloves when he's playing.

If he somehow slips to #13, dear lord.
I'm not going to do the rest, because you don't consider the deep ball an actual deep throw.

I'm referring to passes deep down the field, where he has to drive the football from the pocket, using his legs and transferring his weight. The examples in the first two tapes - those are not the types of throws people are referring to. They want to see him hit outside verticals and deep posts on playaction. Not 1v1 fades or sluggos at the 30 yard line where he can all-arm it. We want to see him drive the football and get his lower half into the throw, tight spiral, and get it to his target 40+ yards down the field accurately. I'm sure he HAS hit that, but I've seen him miss it and look bad mechanically and in result, many many times.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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I'm not going to do the rest, because you don't consider the deep ball an actual deep throw.

I'm referring to passes deep down the field, where he has to drive the football from the pocket, using his legs and transferring his weight. The examples in the first two tapes - those are not the types of throws people are referring to. They want to see him hit outside verticals and deep posts on playaction. Not 1v1 fades or sluggos at the 30 yard line where he can all-arm it. We want to see him drive the football and get his lower half into the throw, tight spiral, and get it to his target 40+ yards down the field accurately. I'm sure he HAS hit that, but I've seen him miss it and look bad mechanically and in result, many many times.
Here's the deal. If he can't throw this route, he won't and you don't call the play. If he can't throw a damn 9 route on the outside (I think he can) then you don't call that and use his elite accuracy to dissect a defense. I am not drafting him to be Dan Marino, I'm drafting him to be Teddy Bridgewater, the most accurate QB I've ever evaluated as a first round pick.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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And how many times is an NFL Quarterback going to throw the ball beyond 25 yards? 2-3 times a game? if that.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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If you can't hit teams over the top and they don't have to respect that, it's a HUGE issue. Not to mention how many points left on the field when you can't hit the big play.

Really? Not being able to hit outside 9s down the field isn't a big deal in the NFL? What?
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:53 AM    (permalink
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And how many times is an NFL Quarterback going to throw the ball beyond 25 yards? 2-3 times a game? if that.
Sam Bradford did this to you.



Lol.


Couldn't resist.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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If you can't hit teams over the top and they don't have to respect that, it's a HUGE issue. Not to mention how many points left on the field when you can't hit the big play.

Really? Not being able to hit outside 9s down the field isn't a big deal in the NFL? What?
Really this is the thing that people talk about when evaluating QBs and their arm strength. It's not necessarily having to consistently throw a frozen rope on an 18 yard out or getting the ball 40 yards in the air and not have it being a big looping raibow ala Jimmy Clausen, but it is about having the defense respect your ability to do that.

Realistically, unless you are in an offense like the Ravens' you won't be having to make these throws more than a few times a game. And even at that, it isn't necessarily what you do in the game you are playing, but your history of showing it. If I am a DC and I realise that this QB can't hurt me deep then I am telling my safeties to play 5 yards closer to the line of scrimmage. This closes down the space for the short-intermediate game and also adds more bodies for the run game.

Also, if my safeties can play closer to the line then it leaves less room for my LBs to cover underneath and also adds more room to get creative with your blitzing. It's why very often you will see teams take a shot play deep to start a game off. Not because they simply want to get a quick score, but it is to force the defense to respect the potential of it happening again. Once you get the safeties retreating then the underneath stuff is money all game. It's very similar to the theories of run to set up the pass, or pass to set up the run. If, as an offense you can force the defense to do something they don't want to do then it gives you more flexibility to do what you want.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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It is all about creating space, a QB who is a serious threat down the field opens up the underneath space on a football field, Safeties have to respect the deep patterns and cannot come up too quickly on underneath patterns and help as much on running plays as well.

I think Matt Ryan speaks volumes about what a lack of arm strength can mean. He has two great WR's who can get free on deep patterns, but his arm strength is rather average and it limits him quite a bit. It is probably the reason why he can take a team to the playoffs most years, but has a very hard time winning in playoff games.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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I think the biggest knock on Bridgewater at this point is a lack of improvement, especially in the areas he's relatively weak in. If you were to just scout him based on his junior year you would say "He's exceptional at the mental parts of the game and has the accuracy to throw in to tight windows but his mechanics can be inconsistent and he struggles with touch on his deep throws". I think you'd come away with the impression that he was worth being taken very high in the draft. The problem is that you would have the exact same scouting report for him if you were to look solely at his sophomore season.

This is also why I'm not that quick to brush off his struggles at his pro day. He looked like he was still struggling to adjust to refining his mechanics and his deep accuracy was as bad as ever. Why didn't he show any strides after working with a QB coach all offseason on fixing his weaknesses?

I'm still high on him and feel like he should be the first QB taken but I can't deny the fact that his lack of growth scares me a little. If I were a team looking to take him my primary focus would be "Why didn't he get better?" and "Can we fix his weaknesses?".

Also I agree that it's difficult to survive in the NFL as a QB if you can't threaten the deep ball. Take Derek Carr's bowl game this season as an example. USC basically sold out to stop the short throws and screens and dared Carr to beat them over the top. He missed 4 or 5 open deep balls and that likely cost them the game. You're not going to be able to beat an NFL defense without at least the threat of the deep ball.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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So Bridgewater hasn't improved because of one Pro-Day workout? Not a great sample size.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I still believe TB's deep ball issues are overblown. People talk like he never completes pass beyond 30 yards.

I'm not in favor of college QBs tinkering with their throwing motion and mechanics in college if what they're doing works. That was definitely the case for Bridgewater.

But after working with Chris Weinke predraft, TB understood he was limiting the velocity and force on his throws because he rarely threw from his base.
Brees and Brady worked to improve their mechanics once they got to the pros, among others. Teddy is doing the same.

If it was that easy and seamless to improve a QB's mechanics in a few months, Tebow would still be in the NFL. TB will get there.

There are no fatal flaws in his game that I can see.

The guy taken first overall in 2012 didn't 'improve' his last two years in college either, and there were questions about his deep ball too.

Most pro QBs are streaky at best when it comes to throwing deep anyway.

You throw deep IMO less to complete the big pass and more to make secondaries respect the threat of going long and back those safeties up.

If Teddy busts as a pro QB, it won't be because he can't connect on 50% of his passes over 30-40 yards.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Honestly - I don't think anyone ever really took Birdgewater going #1 serious.
Right?
Don't get me wrong, love the potential, but I'm definitely not even close to being sold on his game just yet.

- IMO, Houston has been planning on drafting Manziel #1 for months.
It makes too much sense.. Even if he bombs his rookie year, they'll still be selling tickets, won't they? It's what the fans want - a local kid to come in. Not Bridgewater or Blake Bortles - someone they're similar with. Someone exciting.

- Bridgewater can be sloppy at times, especially on his deep balls.. Overall, his timing and accuracy are just average. at best.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Sample size is irrelevant. If you want to be the first pick of the draft then you need to be able to show things on a consistent basis, as in all the time, especially when throwing against no defenders to guys you are familiar with.

What is the excuse for Bridgewater that doesn't potentially hurt his stock?

Nerves? Well that's not good if you want to be a franchise QB with aims of winning the Superbowl

Mechanics threw his accuracy off? How is he going to improve when there are live bullets firing?

Not wearing a glove? Has to be asked why he decided not to since he has always worn one

All top tier QB prospects are expected to be nearly perfect in this setting. The fact that he wasn't will surely raise some concerns among GMs. Imagine sitting in the War room and one of your scouts is banging the table for Teddy. It's your job to make the call and the thing that keeps coming back is seeing him struggle throwing against air. It's tough to make that call, especially if you have guys like Clowney, Watkins, Robinson, Mack etc on the board
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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So Bridgewater hasn't improved because of one Pro-Day workout? Not a great sample size.
How did you read my entire post and come away with that? I said that he didn't improve much between his sophomore and junior seasons. His deep ball accuracy is still bad and he still has a tendency to make all-arm throws that at times can be inaccurate. The point of bringing up his pro day was that he went through an entire offseason of working with a QB coach and he still couldn't hit the deep ball and some of his other misses were way off target. Sure it's a small sample size but you'd expect to at least see some improvement in his deep ball accuracy especially indoors and throwing against air.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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I think it is a more serious problem than people seem to think. This isn't college, pro team spend hours breaking down players weaknesses and strengths year after year. If you have a serious flaw, pro DC's will take away your strengths and force you to beat them with your weaknesses, if you cannot consistently make every throw in the NFL, you are not going to be a star. You can be a Dalton but you can never be a real true franchise QB capable of winning a Super Bowl or even a playoff game.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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Is there any QB prospect who doesn't have his deep ball questioned? Deep ball and arm strength make up 90% of QB discussion on this board.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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I respect most criticisms of Bridgewater, but when you knock his accuracy and timing, two of his strengths as a QB, I feel like people are parroting generic critiques and haven't actually watched him play.

TB almost always throws the ball on time because his arm strength doesn't allow him to freelance and there's no more consistently accurate QB in this class.

I'll admit his game can seem boring at times because he doesn't have highlight films filled with a lot of long bombs in the endzone.
But there is a wow factor when you actually study what Teddy is doing from the pocket.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Honestly - I don't think anyone ever really took Birdgewater going #1 serious.
Right?
Don't get me wrong, love the potential, but I'm definitely not even close to being sold on his game just yet.

- IMO, Houston has been planning on drafting Manziel #1 for months.
It makes too much sense.. Even if he bombs his rookie year, they'll still be selling tickets, won't they? It's what the fans want - a local kid to come in. Not Bridgewater or Blake Bortles - someone they're similar with. Someone exciting.

- Bridgewater can be sloppy at times, especially on his deep balls.. Overall, his timing and accuracy are just average. at best.
Seriously? Are you trolling?

I read the part about questioning Bridgewater being the #1 pick and was going to say that he was the definitive #1 or 2 pick going in to the season but I can understand why people weren't sold on him by the time the season was over. However, saying that Manziel should clearly be the #1 pick is just absurd. If Bridgewater's timing is just average than Manziel's is atrocious. The guy legitimately can't throw a ball on time and very rarely threw into windows.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Honestly - I don't think anyone ever really took Birdgewater going #1 serious.
Right?
Don't get me wrong, love the potential, but I'm definitely not even close to being sold on his game just yet.

- IMO, Houston has been planning on drafting Manziel #1 for months.
It makes too much sense.. Even if he bombs his rookie year, they'll still be selling tickets, won't they? It's what the fans want - a local kid to come in. Not Bridgewater or Blake Bortles - someone they're similar with. Someone exciting.

- Bridgewater can be sloppy at times, especially on his deep balls.. Overall, his timing and accuracy are just average. at best.
Well, Houston's owner passed on Vince Young so I don't think Manziel will be drafted because he is a local kid. Also, Houston is just one year removed from the playoffs, so I don't think they are desperate as say a Jacksonville or a Cleveland would be. If Houston goes QB it will be to win now, a lot of their better players have some age on them and their window of opportunity is closing fast. They are going to take the best QB who their GM absolutely loves if QB is their choice.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? Are you trolling?

I read the part about questioning Bridgewater being the #1 pick and was going to say that he was the definitive #1 or 2 pick going in to the season but I can understand why people weren't sold on him by the time the season was over. However, saying that Manziel should clearly be the #1 pick is just absurd. If Bridgewater's timing is just average than Manziel's is atrocious. The guy legitimately can't throw a ball on time and very rarely threw into windows.
The thing I disagree with is the fact that the argument for Manziel is for selling tickets. Want to know what sells tickets? Winning. Manziel could help the Texans win but if he isn't their top player then he shouldn't be the pick regardless of how popular he is in Houston. It's like the Tebow to Jax rumors. Tebow isn't going to sell many tickets throwing ducks at his WRs feet while the Jags finish with a 2-14 record
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater didn't improve between his sophomore and junior year? Interesting. Yards up, TDs up, Ints down, YPA up, completion % up, team W-L record up.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Is there any QB prospect who doesn't have his deep ball questioned? Deep ball and arm strength make up 90% of QB discussion on this board.
Do I have to go through all of the QB prospects who threw the deep ball well? It's a concern only for the guys who struggle with it.

Manziel has fantastic touch on his deep ball. Mettenberger probably has the best deep ball in this class. Nobody questioned RG3's ability to throw the deep ball.

There are plenty of examples of guys who didn't have their deep ball questioned. Throwing a great deep ball is only part of the evaluation process but, like everyone has pointed out, you'll be limited in the NFL if you can't hit that throw with some level of consistency.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Is there any QB prospect who doesn't have his deep ball questioned? Deep ball and arm strength make up 90% of QB discussion on this board.
Well it shouldn't. The great QB's didn't always have arm strength above average or throw a great deep ball, it was their intangibles that made them successful, their mental toughness in particular and their leadership abilities. You cannot be a successful NFL QB without them.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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I think it is a more serious problem than people seem to think. This isn't college, pro team spend hours breaking down players weaknesses and strengths year after year. If you have a serious flaw, pro DC's will take away your strengths and force you to beat them with your weaknesses, if you cannot consistently make every throw in the NFL, you are not going to be a star. You can be a Dalton but you can never be a real true franchise QB capable of winning a Super Bowl or even a playoff game.
Dalton leaves plays of the field not because he's been exposed by NFL DCs, Andy just doesn't see the field and complete passes that he should.

People are taking imperfections IMO about Teddy and trying to conflate them into serious flaws in his game which just isn't the case.

That's why I can allow Teddy to be nervous at his pro day because he's NEVER nervous or scared in actual games. He's like Eli in that regard. You just can't shake him or spook him off his game.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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Bridgewater didn't improve between his sophomore and junior year? Interesting. Yards up, TDs up, Ints down, YPA up, completion % up, team W-L record up.
Sure, but his deep ball accuracy is still awful and his mechanics are still very inconsistent. Why hasn't he improved in these areas over the last year and half?

I've been a huge Bridgewater supporter but I'm not going to be oblivious to his red flags even if they aren't necessarily major ones.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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Dalton leaves plays of the field not because he's been exposed by NFL DCs, Andy just doesn't see the field and complete passes that he should.

People are taking imperfections IMO about Teddy and trying to conflate them into serious flaws in his game which just isn't the case.

That's why I can allow Teddy to be nervous at his pro day because he's NEVER nervous or scared in actual games. He's like Eli in that regard. You just can't shake him or spook him off his game.
I have to disagree, I think Dalton's main weakness is his arm strength, it's why he was a 2nd rounder in the first place. I believe his other attributes are 1st class, otherwise he wouldn't be having the success he does. He holds the record for TD passes as a rookie and his stats are pretty impressive, but at key moments, when a deep ball is really needed and defensive teams know it, he is very limited.
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