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Old 03-21-2014, 03:18 AM    (permalink
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Most of them are kept because they are strong mentally in the sense that they understand football, can make the calls pre-snap, ETC. There aren't a lot of backups sitting around who are amazing under pressure and process reads super quick and can get rid of the ball fast, or they'd be starters, even if they can't hit a 60 yard bomb on a rope.
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Old 03-21-2014, 03:22 AM    (permalink
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You contradicted your first paragraph and your last couple.
No.

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Brees was not physically talented but his mental grasp of the game made up for perceived physical short comings, that what it ultimately comes down to.
Wrong.




Your theory = debunked.
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Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:35 AM    (permalink
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If the physical part didn't matter only if their mental was way of the charts then QB 'a like Ken Dorsey and Kliff Kingsbury should be HOF's. While I'm not comparing them to TB, regardless his physical limitations will hurt him in where he is drafted if teams think he is maxed out.

And an example of a QB who didn't have college success and a good amount in the pros is Matt Cassell
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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Andy Dalton is a good example of a player with physical limitations who is doing the best with what he has - but isn't good enough (imo). I never saw Dalton as a starting QB, and when he had modest success on a very talented team, a lot of people criticized my take on Dalton. Apart from the QB, the Bengals were the best team in the AFC last season. Just as many offensive weapons as Denver and a much better D.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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Ken Dorsey played on some of the most talented teams in college football history.
I don't think his analytical game was all that developed and he wasn't a guy who was playing chess against opposing defenses.

Dorsey was an efficient distributor of the football in college, but the reason he didn't make it at the next level was part physical and part the fact he wasn't the greatest QB in the world from the neck up.

Peyton is the only starting QB I can think of currently who has a below average NFL arm and it doesn't really impact his effectiveness on the football field, however his inability to drill the ball against an elite secondary was exposed against the Seahawks.

I look at guys like Andy Dalton and think his tools are adequate but mentally his game isn't where it needs to be and why he looks like a mediocre QB.

Like, I don't think Marc Bulger is any more physically gifted than Dalton. Dalton just isn't the greatest QB from the neck up; too many times he doesn't see plays, which is mind-boggling considering all the talent he has on offense.

Most drafted QBs who fail once they get to the NFL usually don't bust because they lack the physical tools to succeed.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Ken Dorsey played on some of the most talented teams in college football history.
I don't think his analytical game was all that developed and he wasn't a guy who was playing chess against opposing defenses.

Dorsey was an efficient distributor of the football in college, but the reason he didn't make it at the next level was part physical and part the fact he wasn't the greatest QB in the world from the neck up.

Peyton is the only starting QB I can think of currently who has a below average NFL arm and it doesn't really impact his effectiveness on the football field, however his inability to drill the ball against an elite secondary was exposed against the Seahawks.

I look at guys like Andy Dalton and think his tools are adequate but mentally his game isn't where it needs to be and why he looks like a mediocre QB.

Like, I don't think Marc Bulger is any more physically gifted than Dalton. Dalton just isn't the greatest QB from the neck up; too many times he doesn't see plays, which is mind-boggling considering all the talent he has on offense.

Most drafted QBs who fail once they get to the NFL usually don't bust because they lack the physical tools to succeed.
I think there's an important distinction to make. Andy Dalton is no worse from the neck up than Big Ben, Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick. If you have elite physical tools, you don't have to be AS good from the neck up. If you have Andy Dalton's physical tools, you need elite instincts and football IQ.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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No.


Wrong.




Your theory = debunked.
Your wrong on both accounts, Drew Brees was 6'0, with an average to above average arm coming into the league. Kellen Moore didn't have the mental game to compensate
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Andy Dalton is a good example of a player with physical limitations who is doing the best with what he has - but isn't good enough (imo). I never saw Dalton as a starting QB, and when he had modest success on a very talented team, a lot of people criticized my take on Dalton. Apart from the QB, the Bengals were the best team in the AFC last season. Just as many offensive weapons as Denver and a much better D.
Dalton just doesn't have the mental game, he makes way to many mental errors
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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I think there's an important distinction to make. Andy Dalton is no worse from the neck up than Big Ben, Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick. If you have elite physical tools, you don't have to be AS good from the neck up. If you have Andy Dalton's physical tools, you need elite instincts and football IQ.
Nail on the head

Physical tools give you more room for error
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Brees was not physically talented but his mental grasp of the game made up for perceived physical short comings, that what it ultimately comes down to.
BS. People act like Drew Brees is some slouch athletically, he beat Andy Roddick in a youth tennis game. I've seen him shake NFL defenders with a quick juke in a way guys like Kellen Moore never could. He just isn't a sprinter.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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BS. People act like Drew Brees is some slouch athletically, he beat Andy Roddick in a youth tennis game. I've seen him shake NFL defenders with a quick juke in a way guys like Kellen Moore never could. He just isn't a sprinter.
Brees' mental game dwarfs his physical ability by miles. And that's admitting Brees has, or had for most of his career(I think his velocity is declining) a decent NFL arm.

Brees isn't riffing out there like Favre or Cutler because they're physically gifted enough to scramble and make throws most NFL QBs can't.

But comparing Kellen Moore physically to Brees is a bad comparison IMO.

It's like comparing Brees physically to Mike Vick.

Brees as an athlete is superior to Kellen Moore in almost every conceivable way.
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Someone posted a pic of Moore earlier while the mental vs physical aspects of QB were being discussed. That's why Moore was brought up.

Drew Brees is a wayyyyyy better athlete than him or Dorsey or Dalton.
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Someone posted a pic of Moore earlier while the mental vs physical aspects of QB were being discussed. That's why Moore was brought up.

Drew Brees is a wayyyyyy better athlete than him or Dorsey or Dalton.
In terms of QB athletecism Drew Brees is one of the better ones in the league.
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Dalton is no slouch either. It's gets glossed over that he was a read option guy occasionally at TCU and had plenty of carries.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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Dalton is no slouch either. It's gets glossed over that he was a read option guy occasionally at TCU and had plenty of carries.
He had his lowest number of rushing attempts his senior year,
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Rivers is my go to example of 'this guy should probably be fishing but somehow is an effective QB.' Release the flight of ducks, they work for him tremendously.

Point being, I'll take the short-to-mid range strikes plus football acumen over the specimens any day.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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I'm stunned at some of the comments on Dalton, he has a below average NFL arm, pure and simple, that's why he lasted till round 2, there is nothing wrong with his intangibles, they are solid as can be, but his lack of arm strength gets him into trouble all the time.

Even with his limitations physically, he holds the NFL record for TD's as a rookie, over every other QB who has ever played the game, that includes Peyton, Brady, Montana and all the rest, that's quite an accomplishment for a guy lacking in arm strength. Questioning his intangibles is a joke. If he had any kind of arm, he'd be in the discussion among the great QB's of all time, but he doesn't and it just goes to show how a lack of arm strength can affect a NFL QB.

Ryan is another QB who arm strength limits his effectiveness, when healthy, he had 3 of the greatest receivers you could ever ask for and he delivered a top season or 2, but his lack of arm strength severely limits him in the playoffs or when he is playing the better NFL teams and it is always going to be that way.

Brees has an above average NFL arm as does Peyton, they don't have howitzers but their arm strength is quite enough to make every throw needed in the NFL, Dalton just doesn't have that.

Kellen Moore has a noodle for an arm, his mental capacity is off the charts, you don't win as many games as he did in college without top of the end intangibles, just doesn't have the arm to start in the NFL.

Ken Dorsey had even a worse noodle for an arm than Moore had. talk about rewriting history.

Say what you want about physical ability, but the first thing a scouts does when watching a college QB for the first time, is tick off whether he has a pro arm or not, if he doesn't have at least an average pro arm, he will be very limited at the next level and every scout knows that and that is why the first thing they look for is arm strength. Once arm strength is established along with height and weight, then the scout will begin to look at intangibles, knowing full well, that a pro QB must have superb intangibles to survive at the next level. Once they know a college QB has the arm strength and the intangibles, then they will proceed to things like accuracy, pocket presence, mental toughness, leadership, etc. etc. etc. and last on their list will be the system he plays in and that will only give him a minimal boost or drop, it is the least important aspect of rating a qB for the draft.

I could go on and on, but that's it for now, folks.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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I'm stunned at some of the comments on Dalton, he has a below average NFL arm, pure and simple, that's why he lasted till round 2, there is nothing wrong with his intangibles, they are solid as can be, but his lack of arm strength gets him into trouble all the time.

Even with his limitations physically, he holds the NFL record for TD's as a rookie, over every other QB who has ever played the game, that includes Peyton, Brady, Montana and all the rest, that's quite an accomplishment for a guy lacking in arm strength. Questioning his intangibles is a joke. If he had any kind of arm, he'd be in the discussion among the great QB's of all time, but he doesn't and it just goes to show how a lack of arm strength can affect a NFL QB.

Ryan is another QB who arm strength limits his effectiveness, when healthy, he had 3 of the greatest receivers you could ever ask for and he delivered a top season or 2, but his lack of arm strength severely limits him in the playoffs or when he is playing the better NFL teams and it is always going to be that way.

Brees has an above average NFL arm as does Peyton, they don't have howitzers but their arm strength is quite enough to make every throw needed in the NFL, Dalton just doesn't have that.

Kellen Moore has a noodle for an arm, his mental capacity is off the charts, you don't win as many games as he did in college without top of the end intangibles, just doesn't have the arm to start in the NFL.

Ken Dorsey had even a worse noodle for an arm than Moore had. talk about rewriting history.

Say what you want about physical ability, but the first thing a scouts does when watching a college QB for the first time, is tick off whether he has a pro arm or not, if he doesn't have at least an average pro arm, he will be very limited at the next level and every scout knows that and that is why the first thing they look for is arm strength. Once arm strength is established along with height and weight, then the scout will begin to look at intangibles, knowing full well, that a pro QB must have superb intangibles to survive at the next level. Once they know a college QB has the arm strength and the intangibles, then they will proceed to things like accuracy, pocket presence, mental toughness, leadership, etc. etc. etc. and last on their list will be the system he plays in and that will only give him a minimal boost or drop, it is the least important aspect of rating a qB for the draft.

I could go on and on, but that's it for now, folks.
1. Dalton is simply not a good decision maker, even with his ball placement. Dalton has the arm to make every throw (not with supreme velocity of course) but his decision making makes it look worse than it is

2. Matt Ryan struggles under pocket pressure, his pocket presence is average and he is limited in his ability to step through and navigate a muddled pocket

3. Kellen Moore's arm is just simply too weak

4. Ken Dorsey, same issue
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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1. Dalton is simply not a good decision maker, even with his ball placement. Dalton has the arm to make every throw (not with supreme velocity of course) but his decision making makes it look worse than it is

2. Matt Ryan struggles under pocket pressure, his pocket presence is average and he is limited in his ability to step through and navigate a muddled pocket

3. Kellen Moore's arm is just simply too weak

4. Ken Dorsey, same issue
Well, for the first 2, Dalton and Ryan, it goes against everything I have ever heard on the pair, from the pre days before they were drafted, right up until today, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I painstakingly try to know my facts before putting it on paper, and those are the facts I know, not my personal assessment.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:04 PM    (permalink
worldtheofend
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Well, for the first 2, Dalton and Ryan, it goes against everything I have ever heard on the pair, from the pre days before they were drafted, right up until today, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I painstakingly try to know my facts before putting it on paper, and those are the facts I know, not my personal assessment.
Actually if you watched them play in the NFL, you would see exactly what I am talking about.

Its not about agreeing to disagree, its about being factual or nonfactual
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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Anybody who has watched Dalton for a prolonged period can see he makes poor decisions under pressure.

Anybody who has watched Matt Ryan knows he is flat footed in the pocket and lacks elite pocket presence
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:25 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Anybody who has watched Dalton for a prolonged period can see he makes poor decisions under pressure.

Anybody who has watched Matt Ryan knows he is flat footed in the pocket and lacks elite pocket presence
This is hilarious, it goes against everything I have ever heard about these 2 or ever see when watching them. You have to stop making up ridiculous statements about pros who consistently take their teams to the playoffs, "Ryan lacks pocket presence", I don't know what games you ever watched but pocket presence is a solid strong point of Ryan's game and one of the reasons, he has consistently taken his teams to the playoffs, even without a solid arm. And Dalton is often let down by his arm strength and his passes can get picked off as they float to a receiver, decisions aren't the problem, it's his arm strength that lets him down. You need to do your homework before making up opinions on players you have no idea about.

Sorry, to jump all over you, but you simply cannot go around making up stuff in your mind on a site where people really know football, people on this site not only watch pro games, they follow a prospect right through college and pretty well know everything about them from A to Z, and you cannot get away with non factual statements or your going to get jumped on everyday of the week.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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Pauline said people close to BW who were directly involved in his pro day thought it was nerves that were the issue.

That's interesting. It's not a good excuse, but I could see a situation where you get frustrated by the lack of gloves, and then it all falls apart and you get nervous because you know you're messing up and then it snowballs...

Now you don't want that to even be an option with a QB. But if I then take him to a private workout, I could simply give him a mulligan if he's that much better with the gloves.

Which sucks for us. We don't get to see those private workouts or even get reports about them. This kid's stock is going to be the biggest damn question mark in the draft because of that pro day. How he does in private workouts will determine his fate.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan has terrible, terrible pocket presence when pressured. He is excellent at getting the ball out before the pressure gets to him.
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan has terrible, terrible pocket presence when pressured. He is excellent at getting the ball out before the pressure gets to him.
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