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Old 04-11-2014, 05:27 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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It don't think it's that black and white.

He could be a completely effective starting QB, but his detractors could still be right about his flaws and limitations. Some guys get better. Sometimes teams are able to minimize those flaws with scheme and coaching.

By the same token, just because a prospect busts doesn't mean he wasn't a good prospect. There's a lot of unknown that goes into a pro career. BW is a damn good football player - no one is denying that. But the team he's drafted to, how hard he works, and how he responds to the challenges in the league are all questions no one can answer right now - not even him.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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I still can't hate on him. He's still my #2 QB. I have to believe in the tape.

Right now we have two options:

a) Reporters are being idiots and overreacting to how he looks in shorts while pro personnel people are playing along to drive down his value in the hopes that others pass on him. I'm old enough to remember Drew Brees looking like he had Tim Tebow-level accuracy at the combine, but when he was in games, he was a boss.

or

b) He's another Brian Brohm.

I mean, I was 100% off on Brohm and was shocked at his fall...but I still have to lean toward A. The tape is just too good.
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Just remember there was a room full of scouts that got out of their seats clapping at Alex Smiths' pro day.
This comment is questionable.

Typically QBs don't have bad pro days. It's actually very difficult to.

But it was blamed on the gloves, which I was actually fine with because I could see that being a huge issue. That was an acceptable excuse.

But now this? Multiple sketchy workouts? That's just not good. And as I've said all along, throwing the ball down the field is not pretty on tape. I would imagine it wasn't pretty at these workouts. No one is drafting a guy defenses don't have to respect down the field in the top 10.

Does that mean he won't be a good pro? Absolutely not. But the team that drafts him is either taking a leap of faith that they can help him make huge strides in that area OR (and more likely) they'll tailor the offense to his strengths, which might put him in the best chance to succeed, but will also affect what they can and can't do.
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Old 04-11-2014, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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This comment is questionable.

Typically QBs don't have bad pro days. It's actually very difficult to.

But it was blamed on the gloves, which I was actually fine with because I could see that being a huge issue. That was an acceptable excuse.

But now this? Multiple sketchy workouts? That's just not good. And as I've said all along, throwing the ball down the field is not pretty on tape. I would imagine it wasn't pretty at these workouts. No one is drafting a guy defenses don't have to respect down the field in the top 10.

Does that mean he won't be a good pro? Absolutely not. But the team that drafts him is either taking a leap of faith that they can help him make huge strides in that area OR (and more likely) they'll tailor the offense to his strengths, which might put him in the best chance to succeed, but will also affect what they can and can't do.
What are you questioning? It's what happened. A ton of scouts and personnel got up and clapped after Alex's pro day. That's a fact. I remember Gil Brandit said it was the best he had seen since Troy Aikman's pro day.
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Old 04-11-2014, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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I'm questioning your point.

So because Alex Smith's pro day was good and he's now, well, here we go again, but for the sake of argument, a bust in your eyes, BW's poor pro day and reports of additional shaky workouts shouldn't matter because his tape was so good?

If that is your point, I completely disagree with every single part of it.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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I'm questioning your point.

So because Alex Smith's pro day was good and he's now, well, here we go again, but for the sake of argument, a bust in your eyes, BW's poor pro day and reports of additional shaky workouts shouldn't matter because his tape was so good?

If that is your point, I completely disagree with every single part of it.
I don't think Alex is a bust. I don't think he's great. Just decent.

In any case, my point, is that pro days should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt and not necessarily sound off any alarms good or bad. There are tons of quarterbacks who have had productive pro days and just didn't have very good NFL careers for various reasons. Cam Newton's pro day was adequate, but nothing special. He is now one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL. NFL teams should have known all they needed to know about Bridgewater before his pro day. It shouldn't make or break the decision to select him in the draft.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Well, this isn't just a bad pro day. It's a bad pro day plus a report of shaky workouts.

Plus, he struggled driving the ball down the field on tape. And he's small and has small hands.

Seeing a QB throw in person is valuable to the scouting process. Whether or not draftniks think it should be is irrelevant.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Well, this isn't just a bad pro day. It's a bad pro day plus a report of shaky workouts.

Plus, he struggled driving the ball down the field on tape. And he's small and has small hands.

Seeing a QB throw in person is valuable to the scouting process. Whether or not draftniks think it should be is irrelevant.
I wouldn't be concerned about the small hands. Yes it can lead to more fumbles, but there have been quarterbacks who had gotten around it. It doesn't make or break the ability to throw the football from what I've heard. More so about ball security.

Teddy is 6'2", 214 pounds. Wouldn't say that is "small".

As for struggling to drive the ball down the field I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. He's had a share of big moments and big plays throwing the ball down the field.

I remember Mayock harping on Newton's NFL Combine performance and then saying he needed a lot more work with his feet at his pro day. In his first year Newton looked like the best rookie QB ever. So, like I said, his pro day and report of a shaky workout or whatever wouldn't change my notion on him.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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I've explained the "small" tag 100 times. He's thin in the ankles in wrists. NFL teams do care about that. And the famous hit he took from Bostic - that's a positive play for his toughness, but a very scary play for a team that wants to make a huge investment on a guy who can be tossed like a rag doll.

I'll agree to disagree. I was willing to give him a mulligan for the gloves/nerves pro day issues, but I said in this very thread that the individual workouts would be key for him. To hear the word shaky from a respected reporter with high sources is disappointing.

And I'm still waiting for the tape that shows him driving off his back foot and delivering an accurate ball down the field. He's terrific in the intermediate game, at least results-wise, but his deep ball is very bad. So it would have been encouraging after noting those flaws watching the tape, to hear the standard rave reviews about hitting all his throws at his pro day. To me, these negative reports just confirm what I was on tape by filling in the blanks.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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I thought Charley Casserley summed it up today, the Combine and Pro Days are like an interview, they can confirm certain things that tape will not show you, like the arm strength of a QB and how quick his release is, the actual speed of prospects and certain physical attributes, but everything they learn at these events are just taken back to the film room to actually judge the talent of each prospect. Pro Days and the Combine account for perhaps 10% of a prospects ratings unless he completely screws up and then that 10% is checked against game film which is the other 90%.

If you have 3 prospects who are very close in talent, Pro Days and the Combine can perhaps separate them, because coaches can tell a lot from watching prospects practice side by side which film cannot differentiate.

Bridgewater already had warts before his pro day, his pro day just magnified the problem areas even more and he fell from favour, how far, we won't know till draft day.
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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I didn't love his tape, was willing to give him a mulligan on the pro day due to the gloves issue, but this bit of news is damning.
I don't actually see anything damning at all about this news. If anything, I feel that it's the teams blowing smoke right now. Things like concern about hand size makes me feel this way, especially since nothing was made about Bortles' which is only 1/8 of an inch bigger. And the gloves? Rivers is a great example of why it shouldn't matter. Once he started wearing the gloves, his fumble problems disappeared.

If Teddy is going to drop, it's not going to be minor issues like hand size or gloves. I don't think it'll even be the inconsistency in the deep ball since that can be fixed more easily than other aspects like being able to play in a messy pocket and maintaining cool under pressure. Both of which Teddy does well. I also think his mechanics can be cleaned up to really show off his arm strength since I feel that it's as good if not better than Bortles.

Other reasons why I think that teams are blowing smoke is snippets of things from other scouts that make me think otherwise. I can't find the quote but apparently one scout critique was that Teddy didn't know how to go through his progressions and only threw after his first or second read. Which I think is absolutely false based on what I've seen and read. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But not everyone is down on Teddy.

From Rotoworld:

Quote:
Louisville QB Teddy Bridgewater passed the seven metric "Parcells Rules" and amassed an elite 0.6 percent bad decision rate against BCS opponents, ESPN's KC Joyner writes.

Technically, Bridgewater fell short in one criteria, because he bolted school after his junior year, but Bill Parcells himself ruled that Teddy B gets a free pass because he graduated in December. Joyner's research showed that Bridgewater made zero mistakes on passes thrown 10 or fewer yards downfield, and a spectacular 1.8 percent BDR on vertical passes (slightly worse than Andrew Luck's rate, and much better than Robert Griffin III and Cam Newton). "History shows players of this caliber are very rare, and that scarcity should make Bridgewater one of the top picks in the 2014 NFL draft," Joyner writes in summation of the in-depth study. "If he slides down the board at all, he could develop into one of this year's draft steals." Apr 8 - 11:03 PM
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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Hand size is not a minor issue.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:56 AM    (permalink
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Hand size is not a minor issue.
It can be an issue for prospects. Would you say it's an issue for Teddy?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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It can be an issue for prospects. Would you say it's an issue for Teddy?
I think he's right on the edge where it might be an issue. He has bigger hands than Romo but smaller than Alex Smith. I still have Bridgewater as my #2 QB in the class, but the point I made was meant to stand alone. "Issues" aren't death sentences, but hand size is not a minor issue. It's more important than height for a QB.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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I want to start this off by saying that Teddy is my top QB and I would be comfortable taking him early, but then again I don't have the pressure of GMs or HCs.

But here is my issue with the ongoing critiques of him. Some love him, some hate him. There is no in between it seems. And those who love him get all butt hurt when someone criticises him while those who hate him get snarky when those people get butt hurt.

The problem for Teddy in the draft IMO is these flaws being brought up are starting to mount up. He doesn't have the body type you would want. He looked maxed out at 214 amd definitely didn't play at that weight last year. He has smallish hands but not majorly small. He looked poor at his pro day and is apparently looking poor in these workouts. When you combine everything together decision makers must be getting worried. They are all red flags which collectively become a sizable risk.

Teddy on the field is head and shoulders the top QB prospect in my eyes but it would take a brave person to bang the table for him when you factor in his off season. Bearing in mind, this is when these guys should look perfect. Also remembering it takes a team to love a guy to take him high. I think there are enough question marks around him to make him slide
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Did Teddy have a fumble problem at Louisville? It's worth repeating that ALL the top QB prospects in this draft have small hands except Manziel.

The month of May seems like a lifetime away but I'll be shocked most of all if Teddy experiences a freefall in the draft.

I was stunned when it happened to Geno too but Teddy and Smith are totally different as prospects and ultimately TB is a better player.

It also is bothersome that since TB doesn't look 'perfect' in scripted passing sessions, it's being spun that he's having poor passing sessions for teams.

IMO the value of pro days is to get a close up look at a QB prospect, observe his mechanics and how the ball comes out and check his arm strength.

WHether or not a prospect misses 2 passes or 10 during a workout shouldn't take precedence over his accuracy in games.
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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I don't actually see anything damning at all about this news. If anything, I feel that it's the teams blowing smoke right now. Things like concern about hand size makes me feel this way, especially since nothing was made about Bortles' which is only 1/8 of an inch bigger. And the gloves? Rivers is a great example of why it shouldn't matter. Once he started wearing the gloves, his fumble problems disappeared.

But not everyone is down on Teddy.

From Rotoworld:
This just sounds like you're in denial. We've already seen one subpar workout with our own eyes, there's evidence on tape that he'd struggle in such a workout, and the additional report is just "teams blowing smoke?" That's quite a conspiracy theory.

EDIT: Actually it was Mort who said teams are concerned with his smallish hands. Small hands aren't an issue if you can drive the ball down the field. He is very poor in this area.

As for the bad decision rate, his decision-making is usually stellar, so that study isn't surprising. His flaws are physical.

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Old 04-12-2014, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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Did Teddy have a fumble problem at Louisville? It's worth repeating that ALL the top QB prospects in this draft have small hands except Manziel.

The month of May seems like a lifetime away but I'll be shocked most of all if Teddy experiences a freefall in the draft.

I was stunned when it happened to Geno too but Teddy and Smith are totally different as prospects and ultimately TB is a better player.

It also is bothersome that since TB doesn't look 'perfect' in scripted passing sessions, it's being spun that he's having poor passing sessions for teams.

IMO the value of pro days is to get a close up look at a QB prospect, observe his mechanics and how the ball comes out and check his arm strength.

WHether or not a prospect misses 2 passes or 10 during a workout shouldn't take precedence over his accuracy in games.
I think the disconnect in this entire thread, and the entire draftnik community, is that BW's tape is so far and away impressive in terms of SCOUTING.

His tape, as a college player, if I were facing him as a coach is flat-out scary. He was a GREAT college quarterback with NFL-level preparedness and savvy. That's truly rare in the college game, and it's what separated him from his peers.

So when you evaluate his tape by evaluating his performance and results, he's usually A or A+.

But when you evaluate his tape by assessing the traits, skills, tools, and tendencies on the field, and project those to the NFL, it's a different story.

The college and pro game are COMPLETELY different animals. BW is not going to be the only super-prepared, smart, experienced QB in the NFL. Those defenses and DCs have seen that. The NFL is about execution. BW can outwork defenses in college and has just enough physical ability to do whatever he wants. The game has slowed down considerably for him. He's at another level. He can anticipate things, he knows exactly how defenses are playing him, and he takes what they give him, and shows some special ability to improvise as well.

The problem is that HOW he gets to those results, physically, is not exactly always what scouts are looking for when you project to the next level. There are some good moments, but it's not all great like most draftniks think.

I've repeatedly expressed concerned with him driving the ball down the field and incorporating his lower half, because he's not going to have the ability to work the intermediate MOF and pick and choose from three open receivers because he's mastered the game plan.

In the NFL you need to be able to take shots, make a few, and work the sidelines. You need velocity, which comes from your lower-half. He's an all-arm thrower, which is why the questions about his "arm"-strength are unwarranted. His "arm" alone is plenty strong. The problem is that he doesn't use his lower half. There isn't much POWER. Throwing a football is similar to swinging a baseball bat, and BW is a singles hitter.

It's not as black and white as TAPE = EXCELLENT, POSTSEASON = BAD, which do I believe? It's way more gray than that, and there are good things and bad things he's shown in both. You have to believe the first thing coaches are asking him to do is come under center and drive the go, the deep out, and the 18-yd comebacks down the field. They saw the same tape we did - we all know he can hit everything else.

I'd recommend taking another look at his tape if you were a huge fan and you're confused. And try to do it without the lens of results/performance in the college game, but rather projection to the next level. If scouting were simply to assess college results, there wouldn't be any point. Yes, it's football, but the speed, physicality, level of athleticism, and level of technique needed to play in college compared to pro makes it a COMPLETELY different game. That's why the combine does have some value. You need a pre-requisite skillset to even be able to be on the field. BW's struggles with his deep ball and velocity are comparable to a stud college RB who goes to the combine and tests below average athletically. Does that mean he can't succeed in the pros? No. But he has limitations that you don't necessarily lend enough credence to while just watching the tape and seeing him perform well in the context of a college game.
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...haky-workouts/

I am in a rush so I will get to gpngc's assessment soon

The "shaky workout" stuff is pure BS, he has only had ONE workout which a team reportedly told his agent said was "simply amazing and sharp"
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Here's another reason why I'm more optimistic about Teddy, especially his physical stature. He's only 21 and I don't believe he's anyway near his max potential. I believe that the jaw surgery hurt him and that was why his playing weigh was down. But give him an offseason with a team program and I see him getting much stronger and gaining/sustaining a much heavier weigh to deal with the nature of the NFL.

As for his mechanical inconsistency, it can be cleaned up if he dedicates his time to it. This isn't Tebow level bad. As long as he brings the same level of preparation and dedication that he has always had, I feel he can definitely improve on it. Everything is projecting now of course. He could fail despite all the good things in his favor. But I'm hoping not since I feel he's definitely going to be great in the NFL.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...haky-workouts/

I am in a rush so I will get to gpngc's assessment soon

The "shaky workout" stuff is pure BS, he has only had ONE workout which a team reportedly told his agent said was "simply amazing and sharp"
Oh well then that settles it.

Next on the agenda - why does Chris Mortenson hate Teddy Bridgewater? After that - who edited the NFLN footage of BW's poor pro day? I need a resume and a birth certificate.
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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Oh well then that settles it.

Next on the agenda - why does Chris Mortenson hate Teddy Bridgewater? After that - who edited the NFLN footage of BW's poor pro day? I need a resume and a birth certificate.
1. Mort has had it for Bridgewater for a while now. I swear TB banged his daughter or something.

2. Are you still gonna harp on a pro day??? Your coming across as a clown now
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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1. Wait, we're really doing this? I was joking but by all means let's analyze Mort's motivations for "having it in for" this pro prospect.

2. I gave him a mulligan on his pro day and said that the workouts would play a bigger part in deciding his draft fate. Then this report came out. Tough to dismiss this piece of news based on everything else we've seen.
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1. Wait, we're really doing this? I was joking but by all means let's analyze Mort's motivations for "having it in for" this pro prospect.

2. I gave him a mulligan on his pro day and said that the workouts would play a bigger part in deciding his draft fate. Then this report came out. Tough to dismiss this piece of news based on everything else we've seen.
1. He has been trying to talk Bridgewater down for awhile. He is also apart of ESPN

2. Ian Rapparport has even confirmed that the Browns was the only team Bridgewater has had a private workout for. He even went so far to say that two personnel directors have Bridgewater as the top qb as well
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I just highly, highly doubt Chris Mortenson is just flat-out lying here. It just makes absolutely no sense.

It kinda reminds me of Nawrocki last year.

People are always so reluctant to believe highly respected professionals. It's really weird.

Critical of Geno Smith? RACIST!

News of a poor workout, after the world already saw one? HE HATES HIM!

Mort's job is to report news he gleans from his sources. Maybe it's just the Pats - still noteworthy.

Doubting the veracity of his claim is just ridiculous. He didn't wake up and say, 'you know what - I'm gonna make up something bad about a draft prospect'. It makes absolutely no sense. To doubt his claim - it's just denial.

One of his sources told him BW was shaky. There's no reason to not believe this.

Now if you want to go down the rabbit hole that one of his sources told him that so he would put that in the public, then I hope the tin foil hat fits your head.

And he's visited Tampa, NE, and JAC so far, and RapSheet has said "most of top 10." Doesn't mean he had a workout, I suppose. But the workouts are "private" and it would only make sense that those teams would want to see him throw after the pro day.
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