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Old 05-23-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
K Train
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Dont worry im sure one day youll convince the world of Brandon Grahams greatness.

Just looked at the list, 2 steelers...lol. Its a screwy list but im surprised Heath miller couldnt crack their top 100
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
How do you know that? Do you talk to NFL defensive coordinators? Do you sit in on film room sessions with these guys? There is no evidence that Pierre Paul gets far more attention than someone like Graham. Show me film of it, or a quote from an NFL coach, and I'll believe it, but until then, you're just making things up.
No I don't but it's called watching the games, maybe you should try it, you know...unless you are content in learning everything about football from PFF


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Again, you have no evidence of this and are just spouting things to support your viewpoint.
And you are using useless stats to support your viewpoint. Hearing a guy got a pressure tells you nothing about how he got the pressure. If a WR catches a 50 yard TD pass because the DB falls over does that make him a good WR? Not necessarily but it shows up on the stat sheet as a 50 yard TD exactly the same way a 50 yard TD does from a guy who ran a crisp route and outjumped double coverage.

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This idea of "special attention" is often overblown. If you listen to guys like Greg Cosell talk, it's a small percentage of plays in which any DE, star or not star, is double-teamed or worse
So JJ Watt very rarely seen double teams this year? Because I'm pretty sure I watched a lot of Houston games last year where he was doubled a large amount of time. Eh, I suppose it works itself out over the season, those 7 or so Texans game I missed he must have been singled blocked on every snap

Is that how this works?
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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How do you know Graham would have kept that pace up over a whole season? do you have any evidence besides projecting what he might have done? No. You dont.
The only argument you can make against the stats bearing out for the whole season is "extra attention" and "getting tired", both of which are pretty nebulous concepts.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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are you sure it will entertain you? If you extrapolate it out over time following its current average you will say 'yes,' but if you actually stay here for the next 5+ hours and keep reading this i have my doubts as to your ability to maintain your level of entertainment. one can only handle so much stupidity.

Then again, following AcheTen's rules, you will be exactly as entertained later as you are now because the performance of this thread will not peter out in time.
Exactly, similarly to everyone's entertainment via abbadon's posts. We certainly didn't tire of it over time, the ensuing comedy of the ridiculousness remained constant over increasing posts.

Unless pff said differently, then I did not find it as funny. I wanted to go outside today, but I better check pff.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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The only argument you can make against the stats bearing out for the whole season is "extra attention" and "getting tired", both of which are pretty nebulous concepts.
Or that it didnt actually happen yet, so there is nothing but projecting and guessing backing you up. so to say he IS better than JPP because he MIGHT do something great when given the reps is absurd.

or the fact that guys wear down with extra snaps. But ill quiet down, dont want common sense getting in the way here.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Or that it didnt actually happen yet, so there is nothing but projecting and guessing backing you up. so to say he IS better than JPP because he MIGHT do something great when given the reps is absurd.

or the fact that guys wear down with extra snaps. But ill quiet down, dont want common sense getting in the way here.
You can't ignore 440 snaps he actually did play in which he was better than Pierre Paul.

To just discount them and say "well, that was nothing that can be done in more snaps" is incredibly asinine.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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You can't ignore 440 snaps he actually did play in which he was better than Pierre Paul.

To just discount them and say "well, that was nothing that can be done in more snaps" is incredibly asinine.
To automatically assume he will continue to produce at the same level isnt? really?
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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To automatically assume he will continue to produce at the same level isnt? really?
It's more of a stretch to just ignore production in 440 snaps than to extrapolate that production to, say, 800+ snaps.

Look at the Cameron Wake situation. Look at any part time player that got more playing time and turned into a great player, like James Harrison...
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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The only argument you can make against the stats bearing out for the whole season is "extra attention" and "getting tired", both of which are pretty nebulous concepts.
Why is that not a perfectly reasonable and clear thing to say?

Here's an example, the same guy holds the world record for both the 5000 and 10000 meters. He did the 5k in 12.37 and the 10k in 26.17

Surely he should have done the 10k in just over 25 minutes if you just simply extrapolate his time from 5k to 10k? Because, you know, extra physical effort and more repetitions don't sap energy at all.

Do you not think the fact that Graham played significantly less snaps per game may have you know...kept him in better physical condition than JPP?
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
It's more of a stretch to just ignore production in 440 snaps than to extrapolate that production to, say, 800+ snaps.

Look at the Cameron Wake situation. Look at any part time player that got more playing time and turned into a great player, like James Harrison...
oo oo i can play this game too!

Larry johnson 2005 - 1750 yards in 9 starts and 7 games of spot duty
LJ 2006 - full time starter - 1789

More snaps. Less productive per carry.


Jamaal charles
2011- 12 att, 6.9 per carry
2012- 285, 5.3 per carry


T Suggs
rookie year - 1 start, 12 sacks
2nd - 16 starts, 10.5 sacks
3rd - 16 starts, 8 sacks

actually, hes only beaten that high production on limited snaps once since he began getting snaps all game (2011) and has never even come close to extrapolating those numbers on a per snap basis.


James harrison
3 sacks in 3 starts in 05
Matched just once over the course of a season (2008, his peak as a pro)



So yes. Its absurd to assume he'll maintain that pace
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.

Last edited by hockey619 : 05-23-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Why is that not a perfectly reasonable and clear thing to say?

Here's an example, the same guy holds the world record for both the 5000 and 10000 meters. He did the 5k in 12.37 and the 10k in 26.17

Surely he should have done the 10k in just over 25 minutes if you just simply extrapolate his time from 5k to 10k? Because, you know, extra physical effort and more repetitions don't sap energy at all.

Do you not think the fact that Graham played significantly less snaps per game may have you know...kept him in better physical condition than JPP?
If this is the case, then we should be wary of playing anyone for an extended number of snaps. We should limit pass rushers to a few snaps just like a "pitch count" for pitchers.

The onus of physical conditioning is laid at the players' feet. I am confident that someone like Graham can maintain the necessary level of physical conditioning that has allowed other elite players over the years to play at a high level for 800+ snaps. Many have done it, and it is just a matter of being in good shape for someone like Graham, who is still young.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hockey619 View Post
oo oo i can play this game too!

Larry johnson 2005 - 1750 yards in 9 starts and 7 games of spot duty
LJ 2006 - full time starter - 1789

More snaps. Less productive per carry.


Jamaal charles
2011- 12 att, 6.9 per carry
2012- 285, 5.3 per carry


T Suggs
rookie year - 1 start, 12 sacks
2nd - 16 starts, 10.5 sacks
3rd - 16 starts, 8 sacks

actually, hes only beaten that high production on limited snaps once (2011) and has never even come close to extrapolating those numbers.


James harrison
3 sacks in 3 starts in 05
Matched just once over the course of a season (2008, his peak as a pro)



So yes. Its absurd to assume he'll maintain that pace


*Pull out a few selective cases to fit my argument a promote it as the be-all, end-all*

Got it!
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Look at the Cameron Wake situation. Look at any part time player that got more playing time and turned into a great player, like James Harrison...
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
*Pull out a few selective cases to fit my argument a promote it as the be-all, end-all*

Got it!
hahaha really? awesome. Want me to keep going?

Matt flynn - 1 start, 5 tds
so if he has less than 80 tds i win

and your example with wake: he was more productive on a cumulative scale once he became a starter but less productive per snap than when he was a spot pass rusher.

2009 - 1 start, 5.5 sacks
2010 - 16 starts, 14 sacks

but but but but thats more snaps with less per snap production!!! WHAT IN THE NAME OF PFF IS GOING ON!?!?!
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.

Last edited by hockey619 : 05-23-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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hahaha really? awesome. Want me to keep going?

Matt flynn - 1 start, 5 tds
so if he has less than 80 tds i win

and your example with wake: he was more productive on a cumulative scale once he became a starter but less productive per snap than when he was a spot pass rusher.

2009 - 1 start, 5.5 sacks
2010 - 16 starts, 14 sacks

but but but but thats more snaps with less per snap production!!! WHAT IN THE NAME OF PFF IS GOING ON!?!?!
Pass rush productivity is based on much more than sacks. You can't just say "Oh, 3 sacks in 3 starts". PRP measures sacks, hits, and hurries combined.

Just referring to sacks and using them as a barometer for measuring a pass rusher is completely flawed.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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AcheTen just needs to stop. You made yourself look like a fool clinging to PFF as some gospel then when it ripped to shreds numerous arguments you had been trying to make for months you have to backpedal and save face now. I'm surprised you're still even making an attempt to act like that argument made sense at any point.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Stop. Feeding. The troll.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Pass rush productivity is based on much more than sacks. You can't just say "Oh, 3 sacks in 3 starts". PRP measures sacks, hits, and hurries combined.

Just referring to sacks and using them as a barometer for measuring a pass rusher is completely flawed.

Ok, so here, have some PFF

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog...fensive-backs/

Chris Crocker is a cincy DB who had a Pass Rushing Productivity (PRP) rating of 21.00, best among DBs...but wait!!!

his PRP is better than any edge rushers was as well!

So, according to The PFF, the almighty lord of football knowledge (praised be its facts), onward reffered in reverence by its acronym of TPFF,talofk(pbif) Crocker is a better pass rusher than everyone in the league, including Brandon Graham.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Not even Brandon Graham thinks brandon graham is better than JPP
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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The problem with PFF isnít PFF itself. Itís an intriguing (although, to a degree, limited) concept. The problem with PFF is how people use their information. Their participation data is concrete and quite valuable. But their grading scale didnít revolutionize football because football canít be measured against or simplified to a series of neat metrics. This isnít baseball. Objectives and variables are more abstract. And the amount of missing information on a given snap is staggering. Thatís the reason that not even PFF proclaims the certitude that some people project on them with blanket statements. If one defensive end has a high-end grade and another defensive end has a low-end grade, then itís safe to assume that the former is a better defensive end than the latter; however, most people just see the final grade and forget the margin of error assigned to evaluation. So, if two defensive ends have comparable grades, the narrow edge in one defensive endís favor doesnít offer definitive proof that he is, in fact, better. It just offers the slight perceptions of an individual grader. Who also happens to lack critical pieces of information through stretches of their process.

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How do you know that? Do you talk to NFL defensive coordinators? Do you sit in on film room sessions with these guys? There is no evidence that Pierre Paul gets far more attention than someone like Graham. Show me film of it, or a quote from an NFL coach, and I'll believe it, but until then, you're just making things up.
I watch a lot of All-22 film. Offensive coordinators donít devote as much attention to marginalizing Brandon Graham as JPP. In addition, Graham tends to rush from easier positions, too.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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It doesn't take a genius to see the extra attention JPP gets vs Graham in protection schemes.

It's pretty damn obvious if you just open your eyes.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
Don Vito
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Cudders

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Old 05-23-2013, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxXdragonXxX View Post
Do you really believe that if Brandon Graham had played the same number of snaps as JPP his per play value would have stayed the same? Because it wouldn't.
YOU LYING *****!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
yo123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxXdragonXxX View Post
Do you really believe that if Brandon Graham had played the same number of snaps as JPP his per play value would have stayed the same? Because it wouldn't.
Are you telling me that if Shaq went 1-1 on threes one season he wouldn't have been the best three point shooter in the league?
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Exactly, similarly to everyone's entertainment via abbadon's posts. We certainly didn't tire of it over time, the ensuing comedy of the ridiculousness remained constant over increasing posts.

Unless pff said differently, then I did not find it as funny. I wanted to go outside today, but I better check pff.
But Abs kept raising his game as he got more and more attention. Does AcheTen have it in him to actually maintain that sort of production with the added pressure and focus being put on him?

EDIT: I feel bad when Cudders feels he needs to waste his time on people like AT when they're so painfully oblivious to just how clueless and flawed their innate rambling is. We got this bro, save your time for truth bombs on topics we need from you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Last edited by Rosebud : 05-23-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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Is there a link to the details about how they come to their grades? Like what specifically is their defensive back equation?
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