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Old 01-01-2014, 05:21 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
People are reevaluating Manziel's prospects because of how badly they(we) missed on Russell Wilson.
Russell Wilson has nothing to do with Johnny Manziel other than they have similar sizes. Manziel plays in a system offense that doesn't ask a lot of him and gets away with miraculous throws that won't be there in the NFL. Wilson started for 4 years and played in 2 different Pro style offenses. Manziel's college offense makes it impossible to actually judge his read progressions and decision making in the NFL.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:29 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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...
In the pros he won't scramble with reckless abandon like he did in college, but believe me he's still going to have instances where he breaks the ankles of a LB or safety who tries to close on him and doesn't break down under control
This is what I envision, too. I don't see a team relying on him as their primary running threat (like Cam Newton in Carolina, or as A&M has done), but he's going to be a nightmare to contain and he'll always be buying time and extending plays. That was one of the things that really stood out to me when I was assessing Russell Wilson, too - they both have outstanding quickness and the ability to burst laterally, gain an extra second or two, reset their feet and throw.

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Anyone who thinks you can't win in the NFL playing Manziel's style of football really don't understand the history of the league.

I really hope the NFL Network or ESPN does a special on Fran Tarkenton before the draft. Their games are nearly clones of each other.
Though I do think Manziel's going to be more of a runner. Truthfully wouldn't be surprised if his first year in the league he passes 600 rushing yards. I think I might be more surprised if he doesn't, provided he's starting the whole way. He shouldn't be relied upon to provide running plays, but I think when he sees green in front of him he's going to go, and he does a good job of protecting himself so there's little reason not to. It's a bonus that whoever drafts him should expect. I wouldn't call a lot of designed runs for him, knowing he'll take off running on pass plays which don't give him a good look or when coverage parts to gift him with a bunch of grass.

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You'd think by this point people would stop underestimating the kid.

His game is for real. He's smart, he's accurate, he's got enough arm strength to push the ball downfield. Manziel is a supreme competitor and makes magic happen.

He's a first round talent all the way.

Ultimately, I think so, too. I think he'll need to go to a team that is comfortable with his freelancing and going off-script, but I really like the idea of him going to the Browns. They deserve someone exciting to watch. But I have a hard time thinking Lombardi wants him. I imagine he's more of a Derek Carr guy.

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Old 01-01-2014, 05:34 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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I really don't get the character concerns for him. Sure, he's not an idol for young kids, but he's not a bad guy either. He likes to party, true. But so do a lot of successful NFL players. Manziel's been on a bigger stage because of his personal wealth and the amount of attention he believes, but I seriously doubt he parties more than a lot of other guys in the pros. Importantly for Manziel, he's been doing it for awhile and it's never effected his play. A common prediction many tried to perpetuate this past off-season was that Manziel would have a major sophomore slump because of all the partying he did; he had just as good of a second season as he did his first. I'm not saying Manziel won't run into trouble a time or two in the pros, but I don't think it will seriously hamper his career.

Regarding his relationship with teammates, I think it's complete crap to assume he won't have their support and respect. When you watch him on the field, his teammates love him. He's also very vocal, very involved in motivating his teammates. NFL players may be pros, but they aren't exactly white collar. I see no reason to assume Manziel won't be a locker room leader like his in college simply because everyone is getting a check for their services. Players certainly will go to bat for their "crazy drinking buddy" in the pros just as much as they will in college.

If Manziel isn't successful, that won't be due to his character. Also Newton isn't our primary runner, that's still #34.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Lmfao. I'd LOVE to see Johnny go #1. I'd die from laughter. Seriously, why can't people understand there's a great college player, and a great NFL player. Manziel falls into the former category, like Tebow before him. Sure he has better mechanics than Tebow, but he'll get himself and his receivers killed by throwing jump balls, late passes and forcing throws. I'm still not thrilled with his accuracy either, plus I have no idea why you'd want to deal with his attitude and the circus that follows him. I wouldn't even think about touching him in the first round. These dual threat, mobile QB's require special development. Newton became a much better QB when he started hanging in the pocket more, and Vick looked his best as a QB when he did the same. Also, Wilson's success is because of his intelligence, the run game Seattle has, and ability to take care of the ball. Do you think johnny heisman is going to avoid forcing throws? He's closer to Favre than Wilson in that department.

If you draft this kid, it better be after the first round.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Anyone who thinks you can't win in the NFL playing Manziel's style of football really don't understand the history of the league.

I really hope the NFL Network or ESPN does a special on Fran Tarkenton before the draft. Their games are nearly clones of each other.

You'd think by this point people would stop underestimating the kid.

His game is for real. He's smart, he's accurate, he's got enough arm strength to push the ball downfield. Manziel is a supreme competitor and makes magic happen.

He's a first round talent all the way.
If College success = NFL success than Tebow should be the best QB in the league (he was unbelievable in college.)

Manziel is the definition of polarizing. I'm on the "he's going to be terrible" side of the fence.

He's a TERRIBLE comparison to Russell Wilson on any level beyond "he is elusive." It's a joke when people say that.

Russell Wilson is a calm, mature, tape-studying leader. He watches as much film as any player can. He did that at Wisconsin and he does it today. He would throw an int and his demeanor wouldn't change.

You're right that people are giving Manziel a look because of Wilson. Oh boy are they going to be disappointed when Manziel spends his millions on boats, drugs and prostitutes and shows up for meetings an hour late and hungover.

What makes Wilson special is his mental makeup. He never would have been in any of the many situations Manziel puts himself in.

So anyone comparing Wilson and Manziel doesn't understand Russell Wilson
at all.

Wilson is also a guy that goes out there looking to make his teammates look good and raise them up. Also not Manziel, he wants the spotlight 100% of the time.

I don't think Manziel has the mental makeup of a franchise QB.

On top of that, Wilson has a rocket of an arm that Manziel will never have. They're both elusive, so they share one trait.

When you take a guy with obvious character issues and pay him millions and make him famous... I don't like that scenario. It's been the reason many players have failed.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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How do you blast someone for comparing Manziel to Wilson, and in the same post make a ridiculous, meaningless comparison to Tim Tebow?
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Boats and hoes, you say? I think you're reaching there and being excessively dramatic.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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How do you blast someone for comparing Manziel to Wilson, and in the same post make a ridiculous, meaningless comparison to Tim Tebow?
Buzzwords, man. These guys are really just Scott trying to move up the google rankings with the forum generating hits.

I'm joking
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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How do you blast someone for comparing Manziel to Wilson, and in the same post make a ridiculous, meaningless comparison to Tim Tebow?
Manziel is much closer to Tebow than Wilson as an NFL prospect. It is an apt comparison.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Manziel is much closer to Tebow than Wilson as an NFL prospect. It is an apt comparison.
They're white and they run a lot (in different ways I might add), that's where the similarities end. it's an absurd comparison.

Manziel has a better arm, better accuracy, a better feel for the position, a better release, better scrambling ability, etc. The only thing Tebow did better was run with power, which isn't a useful skill for Manziel anyway.

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Old 01-01-2014, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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Russell Wilson is a calm, mature, tape-studying leader. He watches as much film as any player can. He did that at Wisconsin and he does it today. He would throw an int and his demeanor wouldn't change.

You're right that people are giving Manziel a look because of Wilson. Oh boy are they going to be disappointed when Manziel spends his millions on boats, drugs and prostitutes and shows up for meetings an hour late and hungover.
Quite frankly, this is utter horseshit. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Manziel is regarded as one of the hardest working players on his team. He has never had any issues with work ethic or commitment to the game. To presume that he'll all of sudden not give two shits about the game is complete conjecture.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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To piggy back on Cigaro, turn on his HS tape and look at his throwing motion. Now turn on some tape from this year. Now try calling him lazy, as that motion has drastically improved. (Nobody confuse this with me declaring his motion as good or not good)
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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I would love the Vikings to get him. I think the kid is going to be quite good.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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If College success = NFL success than Tebow should be the best QB in the league (he was unbelievable in college.)

Manziel is the definition of polarizing. I'm on the "he's going to be terrible" side of the fence.

He's a TERRIBLE comparison to Russell Wilson on any level beyond "he is elusive." It's a joke when people say that.

Russell Wilson is a calm, mature, tape-studying leader. He watches as much film as any player can. He did that at Wisconsin and he does it today. He would throw an int and his demeanor wouldn't change.

You're right that people are giving Manziel a look because of Wilson. Oh boy are they going to be disappointed when Manziel spends his millions on boats, drugs and prostitutes and shows up for meetings an hour late and hungover.

What makes Wilson special is his mental makeup. He never would have been in any of the many situations Manziel puts himself in.

So anyone comparing Wilson and Manziel doesn't understand Russell Wilson
at all.

Wilson is also a guy that goes out there looking to make his teammates look good and raise them up. Also not Manziel, he wants the spotlight 100% of the time.

I don't think Manziel has the mental makeup of a franchise QB.

On top of that, Wilson has a rocket of an arm that Manziel will never have. They're both elusive, so they share one trait.

When you take a guy with obvious character issues and pay him millions and make him famous... I don't like that scenario. It's been the reason many players have failed.
His character issues are SO overblown. A 19 year old parties in the off season? No way! The only difference between him and most other players is that he won the Heisman and was under a microscope.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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The "give a guy millions and see how much worse his problems get" argument doesn't really work with Manziel because his family is incredibly wealthy and he's a spoiled kid who is given anything he wants by his parents.

I can't stand the guy because of his cockiness and entitled attitude, but he is an absolute nightmare for defenses if he can stay healthy in the NFL. He'll make a lot of mistakes, but if he has a couple decent jump ball receivers he will make a lot of big plays.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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They're white and they run a lot (in different ways I might add), that's where the similarities end. it's an absurd comparison.

Manziel has a better arm, better accuracy, a better feel for the position, a better release, better scrambling ability, etc. The only thing Tebow did better was run with power, which isn't a useful skill for Manziel anyway.
They're going to follow the exact same career trajectory. Maybe one season of success, then Manziel is done. Plus they both attract a bloody circus, and are much better college QB's than pro QB's.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Guy smokes a lot of pot, which is against NFL rules and could potentially lead to future suspensions, and it's "no big deal."

Guy drinks a lot of alcohol in the off-season, which is not against NFL rules, and he has "obvious character issues."
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Guy smokes a lot of pot, which is against NFL rules and could potentially lead to future suspensions, and it's "no big deal."

Guy drinks a lot of alcohol in the off-season, which is not against NFL rules, and he has "obvious character issues."
That's really picking and choosing what helps your argument.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Manziel compares most to Vick IMO.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P-L View Post
Guy smokes a lot of pot, which is against NFL rules and could potentially lead to future suspensions, and it's "no big deal."

Guy drinks a lot of alcohol in the off-season, which is not against NFL rules, and he has "obvious character issues."
I see what you're trying to say, but it's not exactly accurate. Tyrann Mathieu was judged significantly for his pot usage and dropped in the draft because of it.

And the Manziel issues aren't just that he drank a lot. The drinking resulted in bar fights, arrests, and getting kicked out of a QB camp where he was supposed to be mentoring kids. I agree the issues have been overblown a lot with him, but people aren't complaining simply because he drinks and dances while dressed as Scooby Doo.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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When it comes to Manziel's throwing, I feel the issue is less with his arm strength and more with his delivery. Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, despite their small statures, have release points which are straight over the top and come out at a higher point. Manziel throws more from the shoulder/ear hole and when we're talking about stepping up in the pocket and working the underneath/intermediate levels, that release point becomes important. I am not a huge Manziel fan, but I can understand why a team would want to roll the dice on him given his elusiveness and knack for making things happen. I would prefer to bring in a signal caller with more ideal measurables and less fan fare who can run a more conventional pro offense.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Guy drinks a lot of alcohol in the off-season, which is not against NFL rules, and he has "obvious character issues."
He was 20 at the time. Clearly he is a law breaking degenerate who will be a problem for a franchise.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by badgerbacker View Post
I see what you're trying to say, but it's not exactly accurate. Tyrann Mathieu was judged significantly for his pot usage and dropped in the draft because of it.

And the Manziel issues aren't just that he drank a lot. The drinking resulted in bar fights, arrests, and getting kicked out of a QB camp where he was supposed to be mentoring kids. I agree the issues have been overblown a lot with him, but people aren't complaining simply because he drinks and dances while dressed as Scooby Doo.
While my post was a bit exaggerated, I don't your comparison is very fair either. I think there's a huge difference in Mathieu and Manziel. One got kicked off his college team because he failed double-digit drug tests and then was later arrested while trying to rehab his image. The other got into a bar fight and then later showed up to a QB camp hungover.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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All I know is that Manziel was throwing was absolute beautiful passes last night. On the run, off his back foot or standing still it didn't matter. He also looked bigger than I thought and was falling forward on many tackles, which may be due to the fact it was Duke and not Alabama.

I think the combine could be HUGE for Manziel. I really wanna see his official height & weight as well as his wonderlic.

I still think the payoff of a Manziel lead Texans team from a sales perspective could be amazing. He doesn't need to be a top 3 QB in the entire league...but IF he is in the top 10-12 QBs in the league and is good "enough" to be the QB of the Texans and help them to be a competitive playoff team that pushes for a Superbowl...then the Texans hit a huge home run with him. Imagine the TV deals or NFL scheduling him on Monday Night Football or Sunday Night Football...hell I'd tune in...
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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What was the point of your original post?

No, Manziel isn't anywhere close to Mathieu, but I was just trying to show that pot users aren't simply dismissed. The issue with him wasn't that he used pot, it's the problems it caused which lead to him being dismissed from the team. Just like it isn't an issue that Manziel drinks, but it is that it's causing distractions and making him look bad.

I guarantee if you could somehow rewind time and replace his drinking episodes with smoking pot and the same outcomes he would be judged A LOT more harshly because it is illegal, like you said.
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