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Old 01-08-2014, 08:01 PM    (permalink
fredder
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Originally Posted by Macarthur View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with your points but you didn't exactly address the main focus of your post. I think Manziel will be the better pro. I can accept that others feel differently. However, I think it's hyperbole to say Bridgewater is some significantly higher rated prospect. I'm reading lots of reports that just don't see Bridgewater as a #1 pick. Good arm but not great. Good accuracy but not great. Good mobility but not great. Hes a good QB prospect but hes not a luck or Newton, for that matter.
It was probably wrong to say that the majority feel that he's a much better prospect. That was more my opinion and I'll admit that there are quite a few people who don't think there's a huge gap between them. I just feel that Bridgewater is a superior prospect in the areas that I put the most emphasis on when scouting QBs. I'm definitely taking a pretty conservative stance on Manziel at this point but I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see him making circus plays in the NFL. I'd just hate to be the GM who has to decide whether or not to take him in the top 10. If you're wrong either way I feel like people are going to act like it was obvious he was going to succeed/fail.
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Old 01-08-2014, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fredder View Post
It was probably wrong to say that the majority feel that he's a much better prospect. That was more my opinion and I'll admit that there are quite a few people who don't think there's a huge gap between them. I just feel that Bridgewater is a superior prospect in the areas that I put the most emphasis on when scouting QBs. I'm definitely taking a pretty conservative stance on Manziel at this point but I hope I'm wrong because I'd love to see him making circus plays in the NFL. I'd just hate to be the GM who has to decide whether or not to take him in the top 10.
Fair enough.

Quote:
If you're wrong either way I feel like people are going to act like it was obvious he was going to succeed/fail.
I fully admit that I have no idea which of this crop will be good, bad or mediocre.

What I do know is that he was the most electric college player in a generation and has the potential to absolutely ignite a franchise. And let's not forget the competition that he did it against

And I think a team like Cleveland could be a great fit. Not much outside of football to be a distraction. A decent QB on board as a backstop in case he struggles early. Of course, who the coach is is a major wildcard.

I also think the Vikings could be really dangerous with manziel s skill set.
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Old 01-08-2014, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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Why not keep Hoyer and also draft a talented QB early? Cleveland would be better off having a 'QB controversy' than putting all their eggs in having only one potential long term starter on the roster.
If you have two quarterbacks, you have none.

First off, drafting any QB in the first will signal that they're going to start. Period. Hoyer hasn't been established firmly as the starter yet, and especially if they get Manziel or Bridgewater, the draftee will be looked at as an instant starter.

Second, you have more needs than people understand. Your only good receiver is Gordon. You have Cameron and no one else besides him. No RB, no true FB, your center is going to leave, your right guard is a revolving door, and your right tackle struggled. You have lots of issues to answer on the offensive side right now, and taking someone like Watkins at 4 would go a long way to helping find those answers.

Third, I truly believe having a QB named starter immediately after the draft is more beneficial than holding yet another competition. Give Hoyer his shot. The only QB I think you can draft at 4 is Bridgewater if he somehow falls to there. Manziel (and for that matter, Bortles) is suddenly a savior. I don't follow how that works.

I understand what you're saying, but I'd like to have some certainty at the position for once, and not another project.
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Old 01-08-2014, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Macarthur View Post
Dont believe this for one minute. Prove it.

First, define MUCH better. What does that mean? I do not believe that most talent evaluators believe he is a MUCH better prospect than manziel. I can accept that some think he's a better prospect. But MUCH better? Not buying it.

Daniel Jeremiah as stated in the tweet I posted, manziel clearly has the most upside.
That's nice. Give him to someone that can use that potential.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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The hope is a Brees/Rivers situation. Hoyer

Hoyer looked good but he is a 28 year old journeyman QB who only played 2 games last year. Hoyer is not certain in anyway. No new coach is going to come in and settle for Hoyer when the coach can get fired for 1 bad year. A new coach will no doubt want a new QB to start with.

Drafting a legit QB makes all those other issues much less important. Waiting to draft a QB until the offense is all set up won't happen. Getting the QB is more important. Settling on Hoyer just isn't a great strategy. At least try for a QB and if he fails the new rookie contracts aren't as damning as before.

I don't think the offense is as bleak as you picture it. Gordon is playing elite football and Cameron is exceptional as well. Those two are better than the weapons on a bunch of teams. Finding a RB isn't as simple as some act but it isn't impossible.

I know another QB competition doesn't sound great, but just rolling with Hoyer is not a sound move.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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I'm so torn. I love Watkins to death and think it would be dumb to pass on given the fact we desperately need another threat. But once you take him, who will be available at quarterback?

Seriously, I'm freaking out so bad at the gross incompetence at our front offie that they trade up to 2 for Manziel or something and completely embarrass themselves.

Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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I have no issue with Manziel getting drafted early. I do think if he was drafted by someone like the Browns to let Hoyer start for a year or two as long as he is healthy. I wish teams would pump the breaks on starting rookie QBs though.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Manziel is a force of nature. Good luck drafting him to sit for a year lol
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Manziel will freaking bust .. He's gonna get hit once and be done ..
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Macarthur View Post
Fair enough.



I fully admit that I have no idea which of this crop will be good, bad or mediocre.

What I do know is that he was the most electric college player in a generation and has the potential to absolutely ignite a franchise. And let's not forget the competition that he did it against

And I think a team like Cleveland could be a great fit. Not much outside of football to be a distraction. A decent QB on board as a backstop in case he struggles early. Of course, who the coach is is a major wildcard.

I also think the Vikings could be really dangerous with manziel s skill set.
Manziel was electrifying but he wasn't up to par with Reggie Bush, who IMO is an easy #1 for most electric of the generation.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
Manziel was electrifying but he wasn't up to par with Reggie Bush, who IMO is an easy #1 for most electric of the generation.
Vince Young was at least close to Bush and Manziel. This is coming from a USC fan.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
Manziel will freaking bust .. He's gonna get hit once and be done ..
Scouting report:

Size is major question mark.
Played behind one of the better lines in the country.
Not much upside. What you see is what you get.

That was a pre draft scouting report on Russell Wilson.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
Manziel will freaking bust .. He's gonna get hit once and be done ..
So he didn't get hit in the SEC? News to me.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young was at least close to Bush and Manziel. This is coming from a USC fan.
Amazing what VY could do while being functionally ret4rded.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:57 PM    (permalink
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Amazing what VY could do while being functionally ret4rded.
I really think Vince was just ahead of his time. If he came up in the draft today, they'd make much better use of his talent. Just had the misfortune to get drafted by a HC who wasn't too creative and he lost his will to play. Or maybe, it just went to his head and like Russell, he didn't work hard at his trade???
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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I really think Vince was just ahead of his time. If he came up in the draft today, they'd make much better use of his talent. Just had the misfortune to get drafted by a HC who wasn't too creative and he lost his will to play. Or maybe, it just went to his head and like Russell, he didn't work hard at his trade???
This is about right. Vince only has his self to blame.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Scouting report:

Size is major question mark.
Played behind one of the better lines in the country.
Not much upside. What you see is what you get.

That was a pre draft scouting report on Russell Wilson.
They also play completely different styles.
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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Does anyone here have an idea of where would be the best place for Manziel to go to?

Not where he ends up, whether it's top 5/10/20/Round 2 etc, but which team, with the coaches and pieces around it, give Manziel the best opportunity to succeed.

As we know, sometime it's the situation that matters a lot more, especially in the formative years of a QB's development, especially someone like Johnny, who may be considered a bit raw but has unbelievable upside.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Scouting report:

Size is major question mark.
Played behind one of the better lines in the country.
Not much upside. What you see is what you get.

That was a pre draft scouting report on Russell Wilson.
This is kind of interesting, and is something I was thinking about recently. His second-year numbers are almost identical to his rookie numbers, and he plays almost exactly the same style of football as he did at Wisconsin. So on the one hand, you don't usually want to hear the a prospect can't improve, but on the other, he basically came in and established himself as a top-10 starter his rookie year.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:51 AM    (permalink
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If you have two quarterbacks, you have none.
Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers - both probably HOF
Drew Brees/Phillip Rivers - 1 HOF 1 stud
Mike Vick/Nick Foles - Both starters in the NFL
Tom Brady/Ryan Mallet - 1 HOF 1 in waiting
Joe Montana/Steve Young - 2 HOF

The list goes on and on, some are better examples than others.

The Browns are going into this offseason with one of two mind sets, they are as follows.

1.) Hoyer is the guy and they have their full confidence in him. This off-season they will add a #2 and #3 receiver while cutting Little/Bess and shoring up the offensive line in the process. Browns should either take Watkins/Matthews/Clowney in this situation... I think if we move back to 4-3 Clowney and Sheard would be devastating.

2.) They are unsure of Hoyer but believe he can possibly start in this league. Haslam and co. believe that Manziel can ignite a franchise the way this city hasn't been ignited by one player and also believe he can start in this league. They draft Johnny Manziel/Bortles 4th overall or trade up to 2 and let Hoyer get a chance to show his stuff while Manziel learns the playbook etc.

The best situation the Browns hope for his Brees/Rivers with their qbs. At worst, they hope one of the two pan out to be their guy for the next 5-10 years etc.

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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I really think Vince was just ahead of his time. If he came up in the draft today, they'd make much better use of his talent. Just had the misfortune to get drafted by a HC who wasn't too creative and he lost his will to play. Or maybe, it just went to his head and like Russell, he didn't work hard at his trade???
VY was good he was just mentally unstable and didn't put the work forth. If he had Tebow's competitiveness and was willing to learn he would have been good.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:32 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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Moving back to the 4-3 and getting Clowney would be good....but that also means we spent all that money on Bryant, Kruger, and drafted Mingo really high and those guys all are more valuable to us in an odd front. We don't need Taylor, Bryant, Rubin, Winn, Hughes, and Kitchen at DT if we're running a 4 man front. Sheard works at DE in a 4-3, but Kruger is best a strongside OLB in a 3-4 and Mingo as a pass rushing outside linebacker. It'd be like saying we ****** up last offseason, sorry about spending all that cash and not committing to a particular kind of defense.

Clowney/Kruger - Taylor/Rubin - Bryant/Winn - Sheard/Mingo would be the **** though up front.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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Clowney could play on a 34 line...imagine the stunts with clowney and mingo
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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If you have two quarterbacks, you have none.
Oh really? So the Chargers had none when they had both Brees and Rivers? The Packers had none when they had Favre and Rodgers? I could go on.

Having two QBs means you have two QBs. The Browns would be, well, the Browns if they go into next season with Hoyer and no other potential starting quality QB.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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Manziel was electrifying but he wasn't up to par with Reggie Bush, who IMO is an easy #1 for most electric of the generation.
Disagree...
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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Oh really? So the Chargers had none when they had both Brees and Rivers? The Packers had none when they had Favre and Rodgers? I could go on.

Having two QBs means you have two QBs. The Browns would be, well, the Browns if they go into next season with Hoyer and no other potential starting quality QB.
Honestly this is the biggest Browns move since the rebuild.

2004 draft - Oh we have Jeff Garcia on the roster why would we need to draft Ben Roethlisberger.

2005 draft - Oh we have TRENT DILFER on the roster at QB why would we need to draft Aaron Rodgers. Drafts Charlie Frye instead.

2006 draft - Oh we have Charlie Frye on the roster we must give him time with K2 and Edwards, why would we try to move up and draft Jay Cutler? Trade back 1 spot with Baltimore to net a 6th, let them take Ngata, draft Wimbley. Classic Browns blunder.

2007 draft - Oh we have Charlie Frye on the roster, we will draft Bro Thomas early, then actually be aggressive and try to trade up and get Brady Quinn!!! We are saved.

2008 draft - No picks

2009 draft - Dodged a bullet by not picking Mark Sanchez - netted the worst value ever moving down 12 spots. I hate you Cleveland.

2010 draft - drafted Colt in the 3rd.

2011 draft - **** drafting Julio Jones, we must let our QB's play with no weapons and draft Weeden with the extra pick we net next year.

2012 draft - Grandpa Weeden welcome to Cleveland.

2013 draft - All qbs suck.

2014 draft - Finally in position to get one of the top 3 signal callers in the draft. Watch someone make a move to #2 for Manziel, #3 Bortles will go, and we will draft Carr and proclaim he was who we wanted all along and you will hear "leaks" that he was #1 on our draft boards all along.

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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Moving back to the 4-3 and getting Clowney would be good....but that also means we spent all that money on Bryant, Kruger, and drafted Mingo really high and those guys all are more valuable to us in an odd front. We don't need Taylor, Bryant, Rubin, Winn, Hughes, and Kitchen at DT if we're running a 4 man front. Sheard works at DE in a 4-3, but Kruger is best a strongside OLB in a 3-4 and Mingo as a pass rushing outside linebacker. It'd be like saying we ****** up last offseason, sorry about spending all that cash and not committing to a particular kind of defense.

Clowney/Kruger - Taylor/Rubin - Bryant/Winn - Sheard/Mingo would be the **** though up front.
Clowney is good but I wouldn't really want to do this, we would be left without a linebacking corps at all... I think Kruger and Sheard could be 4-3 ends and our interior line would be beast mode. The problem is if we want to do this, we need to get linebackers in FA or teach Mingo how to play linebacker in a 4-3 and have him BULK UP, HE WEIGHS 15 POUNDS.

Also we would need to keep D'Qwell on board, then it really wouldn't be that bad... I think he's worth the 4 million roster bonus.
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