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Old 01-17-2014, 11:59 AM    (permalink
Bengals78
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Not if an NFL defense played that possession as poorly as Vanderbilt(?) did.
Manziel threw over the LB and hit his WR at the back of the endzone.
Right read, right throw.
I'm assuming an NFL defense wouldn't have 4 guys converge on one guy either....
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
10/10 That ball gets picked in the NFL...

And that was the cleanest pocket possibly ever.
What's sad is now people are crediting Manziel for his OT play...
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Not if an NFL defense played that possession as poorly as Vanderbilt(?) did.
Manziel threw over the LB and hit his WR at the back of the endzone.
Right read, right throw.
And the Corner still almost had a beat on the ball. What will happen at the next level when it's an actual good corner and not scrub corner #1, 2, or 3?

I don't buy him at the next level at all. People have pointed me to the Bama game and I saw him bailed out on some horrendous decisions by Mike Evans 2-3 times and his other WR(#11, I think?) on one of the worst decisions I've ever seen in my life. His decisions are baffling most of the time, but he won't get away with that at the next level. Not to mention Bama's secondary was very mediocre this season.

That's not even taking into account his slight frame, good but not great arm, good but not great accuracy, and the unknown of how well he can actually throw from the pocket when it's not guarded by two NFL prospects against random college kids. Way too big of a risk. Teddy Bridgewater will end up going #1, this is all smoke and mirrors, IMO.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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What's sad is now people are crediting Manziel for his OT play...
I think it's probably harder for a tackle when you're QB moves around so much.

Manziel's stock seems like it's at an alltime high. Probably doesn't want to do anything stupid between now and draft time.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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I think it's probably harder for a tackle when you're QB moves around so much.

Manziel's stock seems like it's at an alltime high. Probably doesn't want to do anything stupid between now and draft time.
As someone who played OL....**** running QB's.
For every pressure/sack they evade, they cause a whole lot more trouble with their scrambling (holds, hits, running into sacks etc)
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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As someone who played OL....**** running QB's.
For every pressure/sack they evade, they cause a whole lot more trouble with their scrambling (holds, hits, running into sacks etc)
Taylor Lewan agrees.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I was surprised when I read Scott's report on Johnny in today's updated mock draft. I've been following draftcountdown since the 2004 draft, and this is one of the few times I totally disagree with him. I see an NFL ready superstar.

In my opinion Johnny has every on-field intangible you can look for in a QB i.e.. Favre-like love for the game, passion, leadership, and football intelligence. Accuracy wise he puts his passes on a dime, can make ALL the throws, and is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3, Kap, Wilson, and Cam. He's a great runner, and runs smart like Wilson does, avoiding the RG3 type hits. His arm is good, not great. But every QB evaluator says that arm strength is the most overrated category in judging a QB, and unless you have a Chad Pennington type noodle arm(which Johnny doesn't), then it's not a big concern.

I think Johnny is very polarizing because he's a cocky and arrogant spoiled rich kid, who comes across as a jerk. But there have been a lot of good QB's that were drinkers, partiers, and womanizers, and Johnny is no different. If the off field issues are an issue, then don't draft him. But on the field, you won't find anyone who loves the game more. Personally I feel that if my Bengals had him at QB instead of Andy Dalton, we'd still be playing this Sunday.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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As someone who played OL....**** running QB's.
For every pressure/sack they evade, they cause a whole lot more trouble with their scrambling (holds, hits, running into sacks etc)
I get what you're saying and it works both ways. But it's undeniable that in numerous cases SEC D-Lines were noticeably more conservative in their pass rush and more contain conscious because of Johnny's scrambling ability.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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I was surprised when I read Scott's report on Johnny in today's updated mock draft. I've been following draftcountdown since the 2004 draft, and this is one of the few times I totally disagree with him. I see an NFL ready superstar.

In my opinion Johnny has every on-field intangible you can look for in a QB i.e.. Favre-like love for the game, passion, leadership, and football intelligence. Accuracy wise he puts his passes on a dime, can make ALL the throws, and is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3, Kap, Wilson, and Cam. He's a great runner, and runs smart like Wilson does, avoiding the RG3 type hits. His arm is good, not great. But every QB evaluator says that arm strength is the most overrated category in judging a QB, and unless you have a Chad Pennington type noodle arm(which Johnny doesn't), then it's not a big concern.

I think Johnny is very polarizing because he's a cocky and arrogant spoiled rich kid, who comes across as a jerk. But there have been a lot of good QB's that were drinkers, partiers, and womanizers, and Johnny is no different. If the off field issues are an issue, then don't draft him. But on the field, you won't find anyone who loves the game more. Personally I feel that if my Bengals had him at QB instead of Andy Dalton, we'd still be playing this Sunday.
He is not a better passer than Wilson, Nowhere even close...

Where did you get that from?

Heck I don't think he is as good as RG3 as passer

He doesn't have any thing close to Cam's arm and release

No where close to Kaeps arm.

I am still confused how you came up with the assumption that he is a better passer than Wilson???
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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He is not a better passer than Wilson, Nowhere even close...

Where did you get that from?

Heck I don't think he is as good as RG3 as passer

He doesn't have any thing close to Cam's arm and release

No where close to Kaeps arm.

I am still confused how you came up with the assumption that he is a better passer than Wilson???
I don't think you really read what I said. I never said he had Cam or Kap's arm strength. In fact, I said Johnny's arm strength isn't great. I just said that going into the draft, Johnny is a better passer. I think you're confusing the word passer with "arm strength".

RG3 played against horrible Big 12 defenses in college, and still can't read a defense. Johnny is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3.

I said he's a better passer coming into college than Wilson because he had a better collegiate completion percentage and collegiate passer rating than Wilson had, despite the fact that he threw the ball far more times per season than Wilson did. To your point though, Wilson's senior season at Wisconsin was Heisman Worthy, despite his three seasons at NCST being just average.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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He is not a better passer than Wilson, Nowhere even close...

Where did you get that from?

Heck I don't think he is as good as RG3 as passer

He doesn't have any thing close to Cam's arm and release

No where close to Kaeps arm.

I am still confused how you came up with the assumption that he is a better passer than Wilson???
I don't think you really read what I said. I never said he had Cam or Kap's arm strength. In fact, I said Johnny's arm strength isn't great. I just said that going into the draft, Johnny is a better passer. I think you're confusing the word passer with "arm strength".

RG3 played against horrible Big 12 defenses in college, and still can't read a defense. Johnny is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3.

I said he's a better passer coming into college than Wilson because he had a better collegiate completion percentage and collegiate passer rating than Wilson had, despite the fact that he threw the ball far more times per season than Wilson did. To your point though, Wilson's senior season at Wisconsin was Heisman Worthy, despite his three seasons at NCST being just average
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you really read what I said. I never said he had Cam or Kap's arm strength. In fact, I said Johnny's arm strength isn't great. I just said that going into the draft, Johnny is a better passer. I think you're confusing the word passer with "arm strength".

RG3 played against horrible Big 12 defenses in college, and still can't read a defense. Johnny is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3.

I said he's a better passer coming into college than Wilson because he had a better collegiate completion percentage and collegiate passer rating than Wilson had, despite the fact that he threw the ball far more times per season than Wilson did. To your point though, Wilson's senior season at Wisconsin was Heisman Worthy, despite his three seasons at NCST being just average
I don't understand why people are using RG3's sophomore season, where he played on a recently repaired knee and without going through training camp, as a judge for his abilities as an NFL QB. He won OROY and had arguably the best rookie season ever for a QB. If you want to downgrade him as a leader or for his injury problems I'd understand that but he's shown that when healthy he's a good QB in the NFL. If Manziel can be as productive as a passer in his first season I'd be shocked.
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you really read what I said. I never said he had Cam or Kap's arm strength. In fact, I said Johnny's arm strength isn't great. I just said that going into the draft, Johnny is a better passer. I think you're confusing the word passer with "arm strength".

RG3 played against horrible Big 12 defenses in college, and still can't read a defense. Johnny is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3.

I said he's a better passer coming into college than Wilson because he had a better collegiate completion percentage and collegiate passer rating than Wilson had, despite the fact that he threw the ball far more times per season than Wilson did. To your point though, Wilson's senior season at Wisconsin was Heisman Worthy, despite his three seasons at NCST being just average
Johnny can read defenses just as well (probably worse) than RG3 coming into the draft.

Stats don't indicate the type of system qb plays in which plays a big part into stats.

Wilson was throwing in a pro style system in college, much more advanced than the air raid, run n gun stuff Sumlin is running.

To put it in perspective, Manziel is faster Geno Smith in a maroon uniform
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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I don't understand why people are using RG3's sophomore season, where he played on a recently repaired knee and without going through training camp, as a judge for his abilities as an NFL QB. He won OROY and had arguably the best rookie season ever for a QB. If you want to downgrade him as a leader or for his injury problems I'd understand that but he's shown that when healthy he's a good QB in the NFL. If Manziel can be as productive as a passer in his first season I'd be shocked.
RG3 was running a primary read offense in his first year. Granted his knee surgery severely hurt his ability to learn the fundamentals, he still couldn't read a defense
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you really read what I said. I never said he had Cam or Kap's arm strength. In fact, I said Johnny's arm strength isn't great. I just said that going into the draft, Johnny is a better passer. I think you're confusing the word passer with "arm strength".

RG3 played against horrible Big 12 defenses in college, and still can't read a defense. Johnny is a better passer coming into the draft than RG3.

I said he's a better passer coming into college than Wilson because he had a better collegiate completion percentage and collegiate passer rating than Wilson had, despite the fact that he threw the ball far more times per season than Wilson did. To your point though, Wilson's senior season at Wisconsin was Heisman Worthy, despite his three seasons at NCST being just average.

RG3 played in basically the same funky spread that Manziel did at A&M.

There aren't many full field progressions in that system and Manziel is going to have the same issue Robert did once he gets to the NFL, specifically learning how to get through his progressions quickly from WITHIN THE POCKET and find his 2nd/3rd options when his #1 WR is covered.
Don't blast RG3 for being hurt and missing the entire offseason, when most development for a young QB takes place.

RG3 is still learning to make full progression reads from the pocket and isn't there yet. Neither are CK, Wilson or Newton. Even Luck struggles at times with locking onto WRs and getting off his primary read.

No way Manziel is ahead of any of these guys as an 'NFL passer'.

It's impressive what Manziel did in the SEC and no RG3 didn't play against the same level of defensive talent every Saturday at Baylor, but it's still not the NFL.

Like RG3, Manziel struggles with his footwork in the pocket, tip-toeing through the trash, stepping up and making a throw. It's compounded because he's such a gifted scrambler.

It's no coincidence that guys like Wilson/CK/Newton/RG3 who are all running threats still struggle with working from within the pocket and making something happen.

The reason I've argued Teddy Bridgewater is a better pro prospect than RG3(or Wilson/CK/Newton) is because he's much more adept working in the pocket and he's been coached to make progression reads since his first practice at Louisville.

Joe Montana recently criticized Kaepernick and said he needed to stay in the pocket more and make throws against pressure.

That's it in a nutshell; athletic guys like Kaep have a really difficult time sitting in the pocket, waiting, sensing pressure closing in on them while they still keep their eyes downfield and completing a pass.

Until all these guys learn to do that, their overall games are going to be limited.

NCAA completion percentage and passer rating is a nice metric to judge the efficiency of a college QB, but it's nearly meaningless when evaluating a QB's mental skillset for the next level.
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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RG3 was running a primary read offense in his first year. Granted his knee surgery severely hurt his ability to learn the fundamentals, he still couldn't read a defense
Yeah. Guys who can't read defenses typically throw a ton of INTs.
The issue isn't knowing whether or not a WR is covered, it's being able to recognize in a split second whether or not a WR is OPEN.

Manziel can't do the latter at a high NFL level yet, nor should he.
Even Peyton couldn't as a rookie, which is why he threw 100 INTs his first five seasons in the NFL.


RG3 benefited from the read option his rookie season in that he rarely had to read LBs in coverage which made the passing windows in general much wider.

This season teams didn't play like they feared his run threat and played their normal coverages with their 'backers. There are multiple reasons why, but the fact is RG3 still struggled to find open receivers against more standard NFL coverages.

When you keep saying RG3 can't read defenses, it tells me you don't know anything about Kyle Shanahan's offense or why RG3 struggled last year.
Everything he did last season was 'slow', his eyes, his reads and his throws.
He had very little timing with any of his WRs.

You don't pick up a football for 8 months as a 2nd year QB, don't take a snap in OTAs, minicamp and nearly all training camp and skip the entire preseason, it's really surprising RG3 played as well as he did in 2013.
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Well, there is no doubt that Manziel is polarizing but he is very close to Vick as a scrambler and can throw a much more accurate pass than Vick ever could.

As a side note both Gil Brandt and Jeremiah in their pre Senior Bowl top 50, have Manziel higher than Bridgewater. If it was just Jeremiah, I wouldn't pay a whole lot of attention to his rankings but Gil Brandt has tremendous contacts inside the scouting community and I wouldn't be surprised if he has access to the Cowboys scouting reports, and Gil has Manziel as his #1 overall prospect.

Say what you want, but a great scrambler like Manziel can buy as much as 5 seconds longer for his WR's to get open, making it pretty tough on CB's and Safeties. If Vick had been a decent passer, he would have easily gone to the HoF .

One other point of note, scrambling QB's don't require a lot of talent on their OL's, Atlanta got by with a mediocre OL for years with Vick's escapability and I can see Manziel having that effect, and it means with a QB like Manziel, you can draft differently, putting your resources in other places. That's a huge advantage that Manziel could provide.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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Yeah. Guys who can't read defenses typically throw a ton of INTs.
The issue isn't knowing whether or not a WR is covered, it's being able to recognize in a split second whether or not a WR is OPEN.

Manziel can't do the latter at a high NFL level yet, nor should he.
Even Peyton couldn't as a rookie, which is why he threw 100 INTs his first five seasons in the NFL.


RG3 benefited from the read option his rookie season in that he rarely had to read LBs in coverage which made the passing windows in general much wider.

This season teams didn't play like they feared his run threat and played their normal coverages with their 'backers. There are multiple reasons why, but the fact is RG3 still struggled to find open receivers against more standard NFL coverages.

When you keep saying RG3 can't read defenses, it tells me you don't know anything about Kyle Shanahan's offense or why RG3 struggled last year.
Everything he did last season was 'slow', his eyes, his reads and his throws.
He had very little timing with any of his WRs.

You don't pick up a football for 8 months as a 2nd year QB, don't take a snap in OTAs, minicamp and nearly all training camp and skip the entire preseason, it's really surprising RG3 played as well as he did in 2013.
You don't have to throw a lot of picks to be bad reading coverages. It involves taking sacks and bad throws as well.

The fact of the matter he could anticipate throws under a variety of complex coverages to wrs. That involves the "concept of throwing them open."

He can't read defenses, that is reading a defense.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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RG3 played in basically the same funky spread that Manziel did at A&M.

There aren't many full field progressions in that system and Manziel is going to have the same issue Robert did once he gets to the NFL, specifically learning how to get through his progressions quickly from WITHIN THE POCKET and find his 2nd/3rd options when his #1 WR is covered.
Don't blast RG3 for being hurt and missing the entire offseason, when most development for a young QB takes place.

RG3 is still learning to make full progression reads from the pocket and isn't there yet. Neither are CK, Wilson or Newton. Even Luck struggles at times with locking onto WRs and getting off his primary read.

No way Manziel is ahead of any of these guys as an 'NFL passer'.

It's impressive what Manziel did in the SEC and no RG3 didn't play against the same level of defensive talent every Saturday at Baylor, but it's still not the NFL.

Like RG3, Manziel struggles with his footwork in the pocket, tip-toeing through the trash, stepping up and making a throw. It's compounded because he's such a gifted scrambler.

It's no coincidence that guys like Wilson/CK/Newton/RG3 who are all running threats still struggle with working from within the pocket and making something happen.

The reason I've argued Teddy Bridgewater is a better pro prospect than RG3(or Wilson/CK/Newton) is because he's much more adept working in the pocket and he's been coached to make progression reads since his first practice at Louisville.

Joe Montana recently criticized Kaepernick and said he needed to stay in the pocket more and make throws against pressure.

That's it in a nutshell; athletic guys like Kaep have a really difficult time sitting in the pocket, waiting, sensing pressure closing in on them while they still keep their eyes downfield and completing a pass.

Until all these guys learn to do that, their overall games are going to be limited.

NCAA completion percentage and passer rating is a nice metric to judge the efficiency of a college QB, but it's nearly meaningless when evaluating a QB's mental skillset for the next level.
Wilson ran a pro style offense in college. The only thing that hurts him is height. If he was 6'2 and taller, he would have been drafted ahead of RG3

I do agree Bridgewater is a better prospect than them though
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Well, there is no doubt that Manziel is polarizing but he is very close to Vick as a scrambler and can throw a much more accurate pass than Vick ever could.

As a side note both Gil Brandt and Jeremiah in their pre Senior Bowl top 50, have Manziel higher than Bridgewater. If it was just Jeremiah, I wouldn't pay a whole lot of attention to his rankings but Gil Brandt has tremendous contacts inside the scouting community and I wouldn't be surprised if he has access to the Cowboys scouting reports, and Gil has Manziel as his #1 overall prospect.

Say what you want, but a great scrambler like Manziel can buy as much as 5 seconds longer for his WR's to get open, making it pretty tough on CB's and Safeties. If Vick had been a decent passer, he would have easily gone to the HoF .

One other point of note, scrambling QB's don't require a lot of talent on their OL's, Atlanta got by with a mediocre OL for years with Vick's escapability and I can see Manziel having that effect, and it means with a QB like Manziel, you can draft differently, putting your resources in other places. That's a huge advantage that Manziel could provide.
Doesn't work like that in the pros

Vick is a much better athlete than Manziel and he is bigger too.

Good chance Manziel gets on the IR before the halfway mark in the seaason

Or he becomes a turnover machine

Or both

Or I could be wrong and he plays well
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Doesn't work like that in the pros

Vick is a much better athlete than Manziel and he is bigger too.

Good chance Manziel gets on the IR before the halfway mark in the seaason

Or he becomes a turnover machine

Or both

Or I could be wrong and he plays well
Ignoring your theoretical statements for a second, in what way is Vick "bigger" than Manziel? They're pretty much the same height and weight (some sources say he's 6'1 which would make him an inch taller than Vick) and manziel has big hands. Of course Vick isn't a beacon of staying healthy, but even if manziel has an injury riddled career, he can still be a dominant force when healthy.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Ignoring your theoretical statements for a second, in what way is Vick "bigger" than Manziel? They're pretty much the same height and weight (some sources say he's 6'1 which would make him an inch taller than Vick) and manziel has big hands. Of course Vick isn't a beacon of staying healthy, but even if manziel has an injury riddled career, he can still be a dominant force when healthy.
Based on what????

If "sources" say he is 6'1, he is probably 6'0 or under

Manziel has no where near the arm that Vick had
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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[quote=worldtheofend;3549144]Doesn't work like that in the pros

Vick is a much better athlete than Manziel and he is bigger too.

It worked like that for Vick, unfortunately, Vick just couldn't hit the open
receivers.

Vick wasn't any more elusive than Manziel but I don't expect Manziel to actually run as much as Vick did, I expect Manziel to throw a lot more and only run to open space and then give up before he's tackled. He's elusive enough to avoid the solid hit if he learns how to slid. Vick really was a RB playing QB and that''s why he got injured a lot.
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Old 01-18-2014, 02:55 AM    (permalink
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Based on what????

If "sources" say he is 6'1, he is probably 6'0 or under

Manziel has no where near the arm that Vick had
Even if he's 6'0 that would make him he same size as Vick, you were stating he is smaller than Vick and my point was that simply isn't true. And my basis for his upside in the nfl is the way he plays the game. Ignoring how well he plays the position and simply looking at his size is completely ridiculous.
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Old 01-18-2014, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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Does anyone else think that Manziel looks like Tony Romo's younger brother? Not figuratively in terms of play, but literally.
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