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Old 08-02-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
jth1331
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
cmon now, they played in overlapping eras. Tonys numbers are better because he, like Jerry Rice, was the model of consistency. And that in itself is why there is no contest when you compare Jerry Rice to someone like Randy Moss. And the same goes for Tony v Sharpe. And the fact that Tony was 6 foot 7 and one of the best red-zone targets in the history of the game is not something to bag on him for, its part of why he is such a special player. And its really not fair to hold his poor supporting cast for so many years against him. He has never been anything but a hard worker, and an exemplary leader, the chiefs woes arent on him, and the thing about him getting thrown the ball a lot goes both ways, because it also means he was targeted more by defenses and had to overcome a lot of double teams.
Are you trying to diminish what Sharpe did here? Because thats what it sounds like.
Sharpe helped revolutionize TE's in a way. He didn't have the fast track Gonzalez did either, he worked his way to become the star TE. Plus, he had an injury that knocked a season out from under him. Couple that with when he retired, he was still putting up awesome numbers in 62 catches, 700+ yards and 8 TD's.
Plus, the mind set for the Broncos during his tenure was run oriented near the goal line. Not to mention the west coast offense spreading the ball amongst the receivers.

Now, I will say Gonzalez is better, but to say he is clearly, far superior like Rice is with other WR's, I don't think thats the case.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
All this is pretty much untrue and way off base, and while I wasn't personally there I heard absolutely the opposite from everyone:



http://www.burntorangenation.com/foo...horns-football


You also have to dig deeper then just looking at his production and automatically assuming it means a guy just can't play. This sums it up a bit:



Kinda hard to be productive when you don't get the ball right? He was criminally under utilized, and all off-season all he did was wake people up that he actually can play football and isn't just a track star. He had scouts watching him through the off-season realizing this and saying he was a second round pick, and not because of his 40 time.


I really have no clue where you got those assumptions of him because all of them are wrong.

I watched the Senior Bowl...he looked completely out of sorts...I recall one play down the sideline where he completely lost the ball and just kind of threw his hands up in desperation. I also watched some of the coverage from the practices. Maybe I missed his shinier moments...but from what I saw, I came away very unimpressed.

I don't appreciate you suggesting that my opinion of the player was based on assumptions. If we disagree, that's cool...I tend to have more of an old school approach to the game anyway. But to say I was making assumptions suggests that I was just pulling **** out of my ass. I personally don't see him as a good football player, he wasn't productive in college. He was average on kickoff returns, which tells me that he doesn't have great vision. The fact that he had 2 big games in college is even more bothersome to me, to be quite honest. It tells me that most of his production was all bundled up in those 9 touches and he didn't do squat otherwise.

Sorry, man...my money is on him failing miserably. I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Of course. That's why I said "could" and "on paper."

But as far as the Game-Changers and "being concerned about "bling"... Cordarrelle Patterson was saying many of the same things. Rogers being a headcase is far more than him wanting material things.

It's VERY possible the Bills WR core yields nothing. I just happen to love the potential based upon their ability, nothing else.
It's interesting that you mention Patterson. What I took from it was that Patterson carries himself with that swagger that the Miami players used to have...I got the feeling like he was going to be a star no matter what. Rogers, I felt like he wanted that but had no idea how to get it.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Are you trying to diminish what Sharpe did here? Because thats what it sounds like.
Sharpe helped revolutionize TE's in a way. He didn't have the fast track Gonzalez did either, he worked his way to become the star TE. Plus, he had an injury that knocked a season out from under him. Couple that with when he retired, he was still putting up awesome numbers in 62 catches, 700+ yards and 8 TD's.
Plus, the mind set for the Broncos during his tenure was run oriented near the goal line. Not to mention the west coast offense spreading the ball amongst the receivers.

Now, I will say Gonzalez is better, but to say he is clearly, far superior like Rice is with other WR's, I don't think thats the case.
not diminishing anything sharpe has done...Just like it is not diminishing the greatness of Randy Moss when I laughed at his ass calling himself the greatest WR of all time in super bowl press week. Yes, the difference between Tony and every other tight end is that big. It is the same kind of gap b/w Tony and every other TE that there is b/w Jerry and every receiver. Longevity counts, staying healthy counts. And if Sharpe was as good in the redzone as Tony was, he would have been thrown the ball more in the redzone instead of the team calling running plays. And Tony is 37 and just caught 93 passes for 930 yards and 8 TDs and had some heroics in the playoffs. And he plays on a team with the best WR duo weve seen in the past decade and still the most reliable receiver on the team and thats why Ryan keeps throwing him the ball. When you consider that at no point was Sharpe as dominant or complete a player as Tony and the fact that he doesnt even have 2/3 of the yardage or touchdowns that Tony has on his career, I dont see how its a discussion. The only thing Sharpe has is rings, but maybe if Tony had played with Elway and Ray Lewis instead of Trent Green and Elvis Grbac things would be different.

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Old 08-02-2013, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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I watched the Senior Bowl...he looked completely out of sorts...I recall one play down the sideline where he completely lost the ball and just kind of threw his hands up in desperation. I also watched some of the coverage from the practices. Maybe I missed his shinier moments...but from what I saw, I came away very unimpressed.

I don't appreciate you suggesting that my opinion of the player was based on assumptions. If we disagree, that's cool...I tend to have more of an old school approach to the game anyway. But to say I was making assumptions suggests that I was just pulling **** out of my ass. I personally don't see him as a good football player, he wasn't productive in college. He was average on kickoff returns, which tells me that he doesn't have great vision. The fact that he had 2 big games in college is even more bothersome to me, to be quite honest. It tells me that most of his production was all bundled up in those 9 touches and he didn't do squat otherwise.

Sorry, man...my money is on him failing miserably. I hope I'm wrong.

Well what do you expect when you say a guy had a terrible Senior Bowl week, looked lost, can't catch, is more track athlete then football player, and nearly EVERYONE who attended or watched felt the complete opposite? It isn't like it was a mixed bag. Just google 'Marquise Goodwin senior bowl' and find me someplace that says he had a bad Senior Bowl, in fact, his strong performance there is the reason why he was drafted where he was.


And it seems you keep missing the point that those 2 big games were the only games he was given touches to produce. Look at his production vs touches. That's what you're ignoring. If a guy is getting chances but not producing then worry, but how are we going to blame him because the coaching staff wouldn't get him involved and think that he is still supposed to produce? How does that work?


You can have an opinion, I just pointed out that you were wrong. Even if you came away not being a fan he had a great Senior Bowl week and literally did the exact opposite of everything you noted. I really don't care if he pans out or not because he doesn't play for the Cowboys, just was pointing out the obvious.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Well what do you expect when you say a guy had a terrible Senior Bowl week, looked lost, can't catch, is more track athlete then football player, and nearly EVERYONE who attended or watched felt the complete opposite? It isn't like it was a mixed bag. Just google 'Marquise Goodwin senior bowl' and find me someplace that says he had a bad Senior Bowl, in fact, his strong performance there is the reason why he was drafted where he was.


And it seems you keep missing the point that those 2 big games were the only games he was given touches to produce. Look at his production vs touches. That's what you're ignoring. If a guy is getting chances but not producing then worry, but how are we going to blame him because the coaching staff wouldn't get him involved and think that he is still supposed to produce? How does that work?


You can have an opinion, I just pointed out that you were wrong. Even if you came away not being a fan he had a great Senior Bowl week and literally did the exact opposite of everything you noted. I really don't care if he pans out or not because he doesn't play for the Cowboys, just was pointing out the obvious.
Okay, I have to eat some crow. I just watched the entire Senior Bowl North Offense and he actually had a pretty decent game. I don't know if I had him confused with someone else, or if I just wasn't seeing the game then as I did now. I would like to think the former, but if that's the case I can't say who I might have confused him with. Maybe a receiver from the Shrine game? In any case, my apologies...foot in mouth.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Interesting that all the talk is about Julio when Roddy and Gonzo are the guys who Ryan goes to in the clutch. As of last season, Roddy was still the best receiver on the team.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Interesting that all the talk is about Julio when Roddy and Gonzo are the guys who Ryan goes to in the clutch. As of last season, Roddy was still the best receiver on the team.
eh, i see your point. Watch how rapidly that changes though
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Roddy is still better as of now but yeah Jones has the potential to blow by him.

Also AJ Green was and is still better than Jones. It wasnt close as prospects and Green is still solidly ahead now.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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AJ Green is my favorite WR in the league. I know it's blasphemous to like a WR more than Calvin, but AJ just reminds me so much of Moss, I just love his game.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:17 AM    (permalink
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Roddy is still better as of now but yeah Jones has the potential to blow by him.

Also AJ Green was and is still better than Jones. It wasnt close as prospects and Green is still solidly ahead now.
I disagree with this, not only was it close but I preferred Jones prior to the draft.

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AJ Green is my favorite WR in the league. I know it's blasphemous to like a WR more than Calvin, but AJ just reminds me so much of Moss, I just love his game.
I love watching Green too as he may be the most aesthetically pleasing WR in the NFL.

As for both guys in the NFL, I really think it is splitting hairs as to who is better. Yes Julio has better weapons across from him, but being the main guy definitely has its benefits (ask Calvin).

I think Green is the more traditional type WR who can be a go to guy in any situation. His silky route running and hands mean he is pretty much open all the time, whereas I think Julio is more likely to blow a game open on any given play.

It comes down to what you look for, and there probably isn't a wrong answer to the question. Julio was criticised by many prior to the draft because he didn't play up to his measureables at Bama and wouldn't be a game breaker without realising that the offense he played in was such a waste of his talents (though hard to argue with Saban's philosophy). But in the NFL he has shown he can be not only a breakaway speed guy, but he still runs over DBs like it's nobody's business.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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Also AJ Green was and is still better than Jones. It wasnt close as prospects and Green is still solidly ahead now.
It's fine to have your opinion, but the whole problem with this is the AJG crowd acted as if this was a concrete answer. It isn't. Julio came in the league and has been dominant from day 1. For what small of an area AJG has over Julio in ball skills Julio has a much greater gap in elite physical attributes in size, speed, strength that AJG doesn't have.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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personally I think AJ Green is second only to Calvin right now. I dont think the gap in physical talent b/w him and Julio is as big as people are making it out to be...but the gap in route running and ball skills is huge.

My WR rankings go as follows

1. Calvin






2. AJ Green






3. Fitzgerald






4. Roddy
5. Julio
6. Brandon Marshall
7. Reggie Wayne
8. Andre Johnson
9. Dez Bryant
10. Steve Smith

and yes, those gaps are meant to be there. 4-10 can be moved around any which way, theyre all very close.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't think there's a clear answer to who's better between Roddy and Julio. Roddy may catch more passes, but Julio breaks more big plays and puts the ball in the end zone more. Also, Julio is a beast running reverses (7 ypc).
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Sharpe helped revolutionize TE's in a way. He didn't have the fast track Gonzalez did either, he worked his way to become the star TE.
And Tony didn't?

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Couple that with when he retired, he was still putting up awesome numbers in 62 catches, 700+ yards and 8 TD's.
Tony is putting up 80 and 90 plus catches and 800 plus yards.


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Plus, the mind set for the Broncos during his tenure was run oriented near the goal line.
The Chiefs mind set was to give it to Priest Holmes.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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It all depends on the QB.

Back when Tim Tebow was the QB of the Broncos, how good did Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas look then?

Similarly, if Peyton was playing with random 4th round picks he'd manage to make them look productive.

And lest we forget, the Super Bowl was won last year by a team whose WRs were an older trade acquisition (Anquan Boldin) and the 58th overall pick in 2011 (Torrey Smith).

WRs and RBs largely don't matter. What matters in the NFL is your QB, who *makes* the WRs and RBs effective based on his play. And secondly, what matters after that is your pass rushers, who affect the opposing QB.

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Old 08-06-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
It all depends on the QB.

Back when Tim Tebow was the QB of the Broncos, how good did Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas look then?
I think you misspoke. You said "depends on the QB" then you listed Tebow who is obviously not a QB. Of course WRs look terrible when a fullback/H-back is throwing the football.

Tim Tebow could have Megatron and Fitz on the outside with Welker in the slot and make them look terrible. If legal the Broncos would have been a better passing offense with their punter kicking at the receivers rather than Tebow attempting to throw it to them.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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#FreeTebow
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:40 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
personally I think AJ Green is second only to Calvin right now. I dont think the gap in physical talent b/w him and Julio is as big as people are making it out to be...but the gap in route running and ball skills is huge.

My WR rankings go as follows

1. Calvin






2. AJ Green






3. Fitzgerald






4. Roddy
5. Julio
6. Brandon Marshall
7. Reggie Wayne
8. Andre Johnson
9. Dez Bryant
10. Steve Smith

and yes, those gaps are meant to be there. 4-10 can be moved around any which way, theyre all very close.
Just curious, where is Demaryius Thomas in your rankings/list?

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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
It all depends on the QB.

Back when Tim Tebow was the QB of the Broncos, how good did Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas look then?

Similarly, if Peyton was playing with random 4th round picks he'd manage to make them look productive.

And lest we forget, the Super Bowl was won last year by a team whose WRs were an older trade acquisition (Anquan Boldin) and the 58th overall pick in 2011 (Torrey Smith).

WRs and RBs largely don't matter. What matters in the NFL is your QB, who *makes* the WRs and RBs effective based on his play. And secondly, what matters after that is your pass rushers, who affect the opposing QB.
Decker and Thomas showed flashes with Tebow and Orton. Heck Thomas was the one who hauled in that game winning touchdown against the Steelers in the playoffs. They just had a...shall I say weird offense with Tebow.

I really think Thomas this year is going to cement himself as a truly top elite WR in the NFL.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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#FreeTebow
Stop that.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Stop that.
The # or Tebow?
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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Both but more Tebow.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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And Tony didn't?



Tony is putting up 80 and 90 plus catches and 800 plus yards.




The Chiefs mind set was to give it to Priest Holmes.
Good point on Holmes. LJ as well for a couple of years.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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I think you misspoke. You said "depends on the QB" then you listed Tebow who is obviously not a QB. Of course WRs look terrible when a fullback/H-back is throwing the football.

Tim Tebow could have Megatron and Fitz on the outside with Welker in the slot and make them look terrible. If legal the Broncos would have been a better passing offense with their punter kicking at the receivers rather than Tebow attempting to throw it to them.

The point I'm making is that the QB makes the WR, not the other way around. And if you have a great QB, you don't need to invest in "star" WRs, as almost any WR will do.

And if you have a "star" WR, if you don't have a good QB, that star WR doesn't even matter.


Or other examples:

- Colin Kaepernick takes over for Alex Smith and suddenly Michael Crabtree looks legit and Vernon Davis is a beast. Under Alex Smith everyone was complaining about the lack of receiving "weapons" on offense.

- RGIII takes over in Washington and suddenly they have a top-5 offense, and a highly efficient passing offense. The year prior with Rex Grossman and John Beck everyone is complaining about how little talent the Redskins have at WR. Same talent in the WR corps - Pierre Garcon, their one big addition, even missed the 2012 season!

- Brett Favre takes over for Tarvaris Jackson in Minnesota in 2009 and suddenly Sidney Rice looks like a big star. Why wasn't he a star with Tarvaris Jackson as QB?

- Kurt Warner takes over in Arizona and suddenly Larry Fitzgerald looks like a star WR and the Cardinals have a top-10 offense every year Warner is the QB. Warner then leaves after the 2009 season, and suddenly Larry Fitzgerald is a footnote in the WR discussion and his stats plummet.

- Ben Roethlisberger goes to the Super Bowl in 2008 with Santonio Holmes as his main WR. Great. But then he goes to the Super Bowl two years later after Holmes had been shipped out of town. The Steelers WRs in 2010 were late round picks that looked good playing with Ben. Does having the "star" WR (Holmes) matter if you have a good QB and can just set him up with any late round WRs and he'll put up good numbers?

- Tom Brady wins 11+ games every season with a rotating cast of misfits at the WR position. Does he need a true "star" WR to have a top-3 offense year-in and year-out? And even before they had the two TEs, he was putting up numbers with other guys, and even without Randy Moss he was a top-flight QB who won Super Bowls.

- Joe Montana won his first two Super Bowls not with Jerry Rice as his WR, but with guys like Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. Was Rice that important to the 49ers if they won two Super Bowls without him? Or was it just that Montana was the important piece (and a great defense)?

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Old 08-06-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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I think we can still evaluate WRs independently from the qb. Yes, the qb makes the WR more than the other way around, but it's not impossible to evaluate a WR's ability by isolating the player and breaking him down.
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