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Old 04-12-2015, 09:32 PM    (permalink
PredatorPeppers
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Default More dominant/disruptive/game wrecking/game changing/play maker, Peppers or Ware?

Who is/was the more dominant defensive player between these two all time greats? I have to go with Peppers, he is the more all around player that does everything well, from setting the edge against the run, putting pressure on QB's, taking on double teams allowing his teammates to make plays. Knocks down passes, gets interceptions, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, sacks, QB hurries, blocks kicks, scores touchdowns, etc. Ware is a great pass rusher, but Peppers is a great all around defender.
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Old 04-12-2015, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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When Peppers wants to play, Peppers > anyone, including Ware

When Peppers doesn't really feel like playing, fringe guys lucky to be in the league > Peppers

If Peppers had the motor of JJ Watt, he'd own the records for single season and career sacks, and he'd have run away with them; his numbers would be out of reach. Since he doesn't have that motor, Ware's come closer to both than he has in less time. Unfortunately, Peppers has had plenty of games over his career where he just goes on the field and stands around...not applying pressure, being shut down by a single blocker, not hustling after runners, and not knocking down any passes.

If someone had ever found a way to make him give a damn and KEEP giving a damn, he'd be the consensus winner of the fictional Greatest Defender of all Time Award instead of a guy who'd get zero serious votes for it.

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Old 04-12-2015, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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When Peppers wants to play, Peppers > anyone, including Ware

When Peppers doesn't really feel like playing, fringe guys lucky to be in the league > Peppers

If Peppers had the motor of JJ Watt, he'd own the records for single season and career sacks. Since he doesn't have that motor, Ware's come closer to both than he has in less time. Unfortunately, Peppers has had plenty of games over his career where he just goes on the field and stands around...not applying pressure, being shut down by a single blocker, not hustling after runners, and not knocking down any passes.
Just not true man, Peppers plays as hard as just about everybody else. The perception of him taking plays off was started before the 2002 NFL draft and has followed him throughout his career unjustly so. I've seen him play his entire career. And Ware may have more sacks, but Peppers makes more game changing plays and is the much more well rounded player. There's more to being a dominant edge rusher than just getting sacks.
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Old 04-12-2015, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Peppers

College Football Awards and honors

Sporting News Freshman All-American (1999)
First-team All-ACC (2000)
Second-team Associated Press All-American (2000)
Second-team Football News All-American (2000)
Division I-A sacks leader (2000)
First-team All-ACC (2001)
Consensus first-team All-American (2001)
Bronko Nagurski Trophy finalist (2001)
Chuck Bednarik Award (2001)
Bill Willis Trophy (2001)
Lombardi Award (2001)

NFL awards and honors

NFL Rookie of the Month (10/02)
2002 NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year
Pro Football Weekly All-Rookie Team (2002)
2004 NFL Alumni Defensive Lineman of the Year
2004 NFC Defensive Player of the Year
2013 Brian Piccolo Award
NFL 2000s All Decade Team
Pro-Football-Reference All 2000s Team
100 Sacks Club
2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 NFC Pro Bowl
2004, 2006, 2010 All-Pro First Team
2008, 2009, 2012 All-Pro Second Team
Six time NFC Defensive Player of the Week (11/13/06, 11/9/08, 11/1/09, 11/18/10, 12/23/12, 10/2/2014)
Four time NFC Defensive Player of the Month (11/2004, 10/2006, 11/2010, 11/2011)

Panthers franchise records

Most career sacks: (81)
Most career forced fumbles: (30)
Longest Interception return: 97 yards (vs. Denver Broncos 10/10/04)

NFL records and accomplishments

Sixteenth most sacks in NFL history: 125.5
Tied for fifth most double digit sack seasons in NFL history: 8
Tied for fifth most games with at least three sacks: 9
Eleventh most multiple sack games in NFL history: 32
Tied for sixth most forced fumbles in NFL history: 43
Second most interceptions by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 9 *11 career interceptions including time played as a linebacker
Most interception return yards by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 192 yds *293 career interception return yards including time played as a linebacker
Most interception return yards in a single season by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 143 yds
Most interception return yards in a single game by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 97 yds
Longest interception return by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 97 yds
Most combined interception and fumble return yards by a defensive lineman in a single season since NFL merger in 1970: 203 yds
Tied for second most interceptions returned for a touchdown by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 2 *4 career interceptions returned for a touchdown including time played as a linebacker
Third most passes defensed by a defensive lineman in NFL history: 62 *73 career passes defensed including time played as a linebacker
Second most blocked kicks in NFL history: 13
Only player in NFL history to record at least 100 sacks and 10 interceptions
Only player in NFL history with 100-plus sacks and four interceptions returned for touchdowns
Peppers has three career games with at least a half-sack and an interception-return touchdown, the most such games in the NFL since the sack became an official statistic in 1982
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Old 04-12-2015, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Just not true man, Peppers plays as hard as just about everybody else. The perception of him taking plays off was started before the 2002 NFL draft and has followed him throughout his career unjustly so. I've seen him play his entire career. And Ware may have more sacks, but Peppers makes more game changing plays and is the much more well rounded player. There's more to being a dominant edge rusher than just getting sacks.
Yeah, Peppers plays hard...right up until he doesn't and starts stealing a team's money.

Even he's admitted in the media to quitting at times on both of his previous teams.

I got to see it firsthand. No one does dominant like motivated Peppers and no one does cap-space-thieving piece of crap like unmotivated Peppers. I've seen him get pushed around at the line by guys who can't even get a team to keep them for two years in a row.

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Old 04-13-2015, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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You can bring up stats or some crap but anyone who has watched these guys play will tell you its Ware. Peppers was a better run defender with his size, but real disruption happens on passing plays and Ware is the better pass rusher day in day out.

When Peppers was trying he was great but effort was always a question with him. He just would slack. Ware on the other hand never gave up a down. I watched Ware play and it's clear as day he is the more disruping player. He consistently gets more pressure than Peppers and a rookie of the year award isn't gonna change that.
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Old 04-13-2015, 04:46 AM    (permalink
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In their prime I'd rather have Ware for the reasons stated.

Being one of the most physically gifted DEs in NFL history doesn't make you a great player.

Peppers rep as an underachiever is well deserved IMO.
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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You can bring up stats or some crap but anyone who has watched these guys play will tell you its Ware. Peppers was a better run defender with his size, but real disruption happens on passing plays and Ware is the better pass rusher day in day out.

When Peppers was trying he was great but effort was always a question with him. He just would slack. Ware on the other hand never gave up a down. I watched Ware play and it's clear as day he is the more disruping player. He consistently gets more pressure than Peppers and a rookie of the year award isn't gonna change that.
Ok, so real disruption happens on passing plays eh? Well Peppers is a much more overall disruptor than Ware. Ware consistently gets more pressure? Wrong. It's clear as day Ware is the more disruptive player? Wrong. Peppers doesn't play with great effort? Wrong again.

If Peppers didn't play with great effort he wouldn't have accomplished what he has accomplished, you don't just stroll out there every Sunday and put forth half assed effort and do what Peppers has over the course of his career.

As far as Ware being more disruptive, then why does Peppers get more QB hurries than Ware? More forced fumbles than Ware which get his team possession of the ball, more fumble recoveries which get his teams offense the ball back, more interceptions which get his team the ball back for a chance to score, more passes defensed which can lead to interceptions or is a wasted down for the offense, more blocked kicks which wipes points off the board for the opposing offense, scores more touchdowns than Ware which puts points on the board for his team, is more disruptive and holds ups against the run better and can take on double teams better because of his size compared to Ware. Peppers is also a much more versatile player and can play practically any position along the front 7 moving from DE to DT to LB. Ware can't do that. My friend it is CLEAR who the much more overall disruptive player is, and it ain't Ware. There's more to being disruptive than sacks.

Peppers in 13 seasons played:

Tackles: 601
Sacks: 125.5
Forced Fumbles: 43
Fumble Recoveries: 17
Interceptions: 11
Passes Defensed: 73
Stuffs: 51
Blocked Kicks: 13
Touchdowns: 6
Safeties: 0
QB Hurries since 2006: 130
Career Approximate Value: 159

Ware in 10 seasons played:

Tackles: 616
Sacks: 127
Forced Fumbles: 34
Fumble Recoveries: 7
Interceptions: 3
Passes Defensed: 25
Stuffs: 62
Blocked Kicks: 0
Touchdowns: 3
Safeties: 0
QB Hurries since 2006: 126
Career Approximate Value: 115

Yes Ware has played three less seasons than Peppers but it is HIGHLY unlikely he makes anywhere near as many game altering plays as Peppers has over the course of his career. Ware is a great pass rusher, but Peppers is a great overall defensive player. We'll have to see who has accomplished more at the end of their respective careers, but as of now Peppers has Ware beat in the debate over who has been the more overall disruptive football player, and it really isn't close. Peppers is one of the greatest defensive players of all time, enjoy watching him while he's still around.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/...julius-peppers Peppers stats

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/julius-...s-player-stats Peppers QB hurries stat

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...P/PeppJu99.htm Peppers career approximate value

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/.../demarcus-ware Ware's stats

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/demarcus-ware-player-stats Ware's QB hurries stat

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WareDe99.htm Ware's career approximate value

Last edited by PredatorPeppers : 04-13-2015 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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In their prime I'd rather have Ware for the reasons stated.

Being one of the most physically gifted DEs in NFL history doesn't make you a great player.

Peppers rep as an underachiever is well deserved IMO.
Read above post and you will clearly see that Peppers IS NOT an underachiever.
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Peppers > Ware
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Should I just delete this thread?

This feels delete worthy.
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Peppers is a beast. He's so smooth athletically that he makes it look easier than a guy like Jared Allen does. Is he the highest motor player I've ever seen? No, of course not, but neither is Ware for that matter.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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In their prime I'd rather have Ware for the reasons stated.

Being one of the most physically gifted DEs in NFL history doesn't make you a great player.

Peppers rep as an underachiever is well deserved IMO.
An underachiever that is probably top 25 in all time sacks? Has played in both systems and has a rare skillset. I agree with you though as far not reaching his potential I GUESS but just because he didn't reach his "potential" doesn't mean everything he has done goes out the window.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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An underachiever that is probably top 25 in all time sacks? Has played in both systems and has a rare skillset. I agree with you though as far not reaching his potential I GUESS but just because he didn't reach his "potential" doesn't mean everything he has done goes out the window.
The OP is comparing Peppers to another potential HOF DE/edge rusher.

I saw Ware take over games late routinely in the NFC. Peppers rarely if ever put the Panthers on his back and willed them to a W.

Peppers is an awesome player, but in their prime IMO Ware offers more bang for your buck.

People have this need for some reason to re-write the narrative on Peppers and turn him into a player he wasn't.

Effort and production are the defining traits of a great player, not measurables.

To 'prove' that Peppers is a better edge rusher than Ware, you have to expand the metric criteria into categories that are irrelevant to rushing the QB.

Who cares how many INTs and passes defensed a DE has??
A great pass rusher creates those stats for other players, not himself.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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I could give two shits about his measurable, he was more versatile than Ware while Ware was a SLIGHTLY better pass rusher.
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Ware has averaged 12.7 sacks per season compared to 9.7 for Peppers. I consider an additional 3 sacks per season to be more than SLIGHTLY better.
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Well they are different players but sure bud.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Peppers > Ware
Your jusy super biased. Everyone else can see Ware is better and more productive than Peppers. I bet you can't even see the cinnamon swirls on every bite.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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The OP is comparing Peppers to another potential HOF DE/edge rusher.

I saw Ware take over games late routinely in the NFC. Peppers rarely if ever put the Panthers on his back and willed them to a W.

Peppers is an awesome player, but in their prime IMO Ware offers more bang for your buck.

People have this need for some reason to re-write the narrative on Peppers and turn him into a player he wasn't.

Effort and production are the defining traits of a great player, not measurables.

To 'prove' that Peppers is a better edge rusher than Ware, you have to expand the metric criteria into categories that are irrelevant to rushing the QB.

Who cares how many INTs and passes defensed a DE has??
A great pass rusher creates those stats for other players, not himself.
Dude, Ware had like one game where he did something late to win the game for the Cowgirls, the game against the Saints where he forced a fumble in like 2009 I think. Cowboys fans were always complaining about how Ware NEVER did anything important in big games down the stretch. Peppers has made PLENTY of game changing plays, including just this past playoff game against the Cowgirls where he forced that fumble on DeMarco Murray and saved a game breaking touchdown where Murray had a WIDE OPEN lane where he would have broke the Packers back with that TD, if not for that HUGE play by Peppers. Peppers had a sack forced fumble earlier in that game as well.

All the interceptions, touchdowns, blocked kicks, knocked down passes, forced fumbles, etc, etc. that Peppers makes and they somehow don't count when comparing him to Ware? LOL man that makes zero sense, so sorry Peppers, all those GAME CHANGING plays you made don't count bro, only sacks count. I don't get that logic sorry. Peppers makes way more game changing plays than overrated Ware.

Peppers creates those plays for himself, and his teammates, too bad Ware can't say the same. Peppers > Ware.

It's not all about rushing the passer, Peppers is an all around versatile freak, can line up at any position along the front 7, make tons of plays, stop the run, take on double teams, block kicks on special teams, etc. Peppers is way more versatile and way more dominant than Ware could ever dream of being.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Your jusy super biased. Everyone else can see Ware is better and more productive than Peppers. I bet you can't even see the cinnamon swirls on every bite.
No, you have confirmation bias, where you hear from the media that supposedly Peppers takes plays off, so it must be true right. Wrong. And no, not everyone sees Ware is better, it seems a few think Ware, and a few think Peppers in here my friend.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Did you really expect to come in here and start a thread like this with the username PredatorPeppers and have people take you seriously?
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Did you really expect to come in here and start a thread like this with the username PredatorPeppers and have people take you seriously?
As a heart attack.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Peppers wasn't drafted 1/1 for his versatility. He was taken that high because scouts thought he was going destroy NFL QBs.

The guy has never been an elite pass rusher and saying he did other things well doesn't change that fact.

My team plays the Cowboys twice a season so I'd say I have a better take on Ware's ability to choke the life out of a game.

On purely getting to the QB, Ware is better than Peppers, which is an indictment on Peppers.

Peppers has 17 INTs in 13 NFL seasons. Hardly game changing. By that metric Ike Taylor is a gamechanger.lol

The only stat that carries weight are his forced fumbles.

If Peppers had 190 career sacks, NO ONE would be talking about his other stats.

But since he only has 125 sacks and has clearly underachieved in his primary role as a pass rusher, I have read all this nonsense about how great an all around DE he was.

Michael Strahan was a great overall DE.

Peppers struggled to get 11 sacks in a season.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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Peppers wasn't drafted 1/1 for his versatility. He was taken that high because scouts thought he was going destroy NFL QBs.

The guy has never been an elite pass rusher and saying he did other things well doesn't change that fact.

My team plays the Cowboys twice a season so I'd say I have a better take on Ware's ability to choke the life out of a game.

On purely getting to the QB, Ware is better than Peppers, which is an indictment on Peppers.

Peppers has 17 INTs in 13 NFL seasons. Hardly game changing. By that metric Ike Taylor is a gamechanger.lol

The only stat that carries weight are his forced fumbles.

If Peppers had 190 career sacks, NO ONE would be talking about his other stats.

But since he only has 125 sacks and has clearly underachieved in his primary role as a pass rusher, I have read all this nonsense about how great an all around DE he was.

Michael Strahan was a great overall DE.

Peppers struggled to get 11 sacks in a season.
Peppers was taken that high because he was an overall dominant DE, unlike one trick ponies like Ware, Freeney, Dumervil, etc. That's why they're not taken as highly as ALL AROUND DOMINANT players like Peppers. Although Watt should have been taken higher obviously.

Umm, yea Peppers has been an elite pass rusher, he has eight seasons with double digit sacks, and he has more QB hurries than DeMarcus Ware, which show he gets pressure on QB's dude.

I'm actually a Redskins fan myself, I've seen plenty of overrated Ware too, like when he had a career high 4 sacks against the Eagles but let McCoy rip them a new one while rushing for 185 yds wizzing by Ware making him look foolish. All Ware wants to do is pin his ears back and rush, unlike Peppers who plays the run as well as the pass. Also, Ware has played in some aggressive schemes under the likes of Wade Phillips and Rob Ryan, playing as an OLB where he saw plenty of 1 on 1's vs tight ends and running backs. Meanwhile Peppers has played the majority of his career as a DE and some as a DT and last year at some OLB, but mostly Peppers has played in a 4-3 cover 2 scheme, which only rushes 4 which makes it easier to double team Peppers, meaning that it's been harder for Peppers to get sacks than Ware.

Umm, all of Peppers stats hold weight, like I said, touchdowns put points on the board for his team, forced fumbles get his team the ball back if they recover, interceptions get his team the ball back, blocked kicks keep points off the board for the opposing team, batted passes lead to INT's or a wasted down, fumble recoveries get his team the ball back, etc. All game changing plays, which are BETTER in most cases than a sack.

Peppers is way better than Strahan could ever dream of being and has made WAY MORE game changing plays.

No, Peppers hasn't struggled to get 11 sacks, he has 11 or more sacks in six seasons. Stop exaggerating.

No, Peppers has not underachieved, he's accomplished quite a bit over his illustrious career and continues to add to it the longer he plays.

Ware is great, but Peppers is greater.

Last edited by PredatorPeppers : 04-14-2015 at 09:40 PM.
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