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Old 09-19-2013, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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ITT, don't keep any good players unless you have a QB.
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
Marshall Faulk was a first round pick who only became Marshall Faulk, Hall of Famer, after being traded away from the team that drafted him. That's the point. The difference was immediate and lasting and was the result of being placed in a different scheme with a different supporting cast, and who knows - maybe it motivated him. All this is possible for Trent Richardson, who, I'll say again, has some fairly striking early-career similarities to LaDainian Tomlinson.

Also, I get tired of people talking about how "you can always get a back in the middle rounds." No, you can't. Good teams are supposed to be able to find good players in all the rounds, and the reason Richardson went high is because he's a fairly rare physical specimen. I also believe if there's a player you can make a move for that significantly improves your team, you do it. I think that's what Indy did.

Also... Is this the most blatantly a team has ever flushed a season down the toilet? Did ownership tell them, "I want Bridgewater. Do what you have to." ?
This is false, he was just coming off a season in which he ran 324 times (most in his career) and caught it 86 (2nd most in his career) and again I say he accumulated 2200 yards of total offense in his final season as a Colt. He later became a hall of famer because he simply hadn't a long enough career at that point to warrant it, but he displayed all the same skills that would make him famous as a Ram and posted the 2nd most offensive yards of his career in his last season as a Colt

You can compare him to LT all you want, but he wasn't the prospect LT was coming out (even though he came from Alabama whereas LT came from TCU). He is one of the slowest/least explosive RBs that I ever remember to go top 5.

You can hate on the finding a back later, but it's true. You can, and it todays NFL teams win superbowls with QBs. Does Richardson really make the Colts better? That's to be seen.

It's funny people think they deliberately are sinking for Bridgewater. Seriously? I'm sure they'll take a QB with their own selection, but that would likely be the case with or without Richardson. They saw he wasn't the system fit or wasn't the player they thought he was when they had invested a top 5 pick, so they traded him and got a first rounder.

This years RB class is looking like a very good class, many of them will be available in round 2.

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Old 09-19-2013, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Pat Sims 90 View Post
Richardson had Weeden as his QB, no true #1 WR, and worst Guard combo in the NFL. Who is not going to stack the box against the Browns? Plus the Browns did not even try to run the ball with him for some reason they have thrown the ball with Weeden 82 times.
He doesn't have the most ideal circumstances, but I don't think he's really even showing flashes. His line isn't great, but I remember Frank Gore ranked against stacked boxes the majority of his career being on terrible teams with no quarterback and/or no receivers and he still was productive. Eddie George pounded the rock for years in Houston/Tennessee and for the majority of his career there weren't any really huge playmaking threats that teams had to account for and McNair didn't become a major passing threat until his later years.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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Marshall Faulk was a first round pick who only became Marshall Faulk, Hall of Famer, after being traded away from the team that drafted him. That's the point.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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Faulk could have still had a Hall of Fame career had he stayed with the Colts. They were getting better. Faulk was traded a day before the 1999 draft and the Colts decided to replace him with Edgerrin James. They then make one of the biggest turnarounds by going 13-3, when they had went 3-13 the previous year. So they were on the horizon anyways. Peyton Manning, Marvin Harrison, and Marshall Faulk would have most likely continued to be a dominate unit.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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I think he's shown flashes. He had a few hundred yard games with strong YPC and such. He hasn't broken the long runs to pad his stats any, but he's churned out some quality games.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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I think he's shown flashes. He had a few hundred yard games with strong YPC and such. He hasn't broken the long runs to pad his stats any, but he's churned out some quality games.
It would help if the first contact wasn't always at the line or behind it....

Anyways...this trade could work out for both teams if Richardson works out and the Browns draft smart.

And for the sanity of my many friends who are Browns fans, I hope it does.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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He doesn't have the most ideal circumstances, but I don't think he's really even showing flashes. His line isn't great, but I remember Frank Gore ranked against stacked boxes the majority of his career being on terrible teams with no quarterback and/or no receivers and he still was productive. Eddie George pounded the rock for years in Houston/Tennessee and for the majority of his career there weren't any really huge playmaking threats that teams had to account for and McNair didn't become a major passing threat until his later years.
He has shown flashes put on the tape from last year playing injured most of the year on top of that. They did not even try to get him the ball this year even in the 2 games they played when they were close games they continued to just throw the ball with Weeden.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Most interesting analysis I've seen so far
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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He has shown flashes put on the tape from last year playing injured most of the year on top of that. They did not even try to get him the ball this year even in the 2 games they played when they were close games they continued to just throw the ball with Weeden.
I don't watch that many Browns games so I don't know. Just from what I've seen I haven't been that impressed. But like I said earlier he doesn't have the most ideal circumstances. This was a pick by the previous regime. Perhaps they feel they can find the kind of production they're already getting from a street free agent.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:50 AM    (permalink
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AD is the ONLY RB in the league I'd trade a 1st rounder for.
Indy got yanked.

Well done Brownies.

I think Trent could be a solid contributor for the Colts but they gave up way too much to acquire him.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:55 AM    (permalink
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Probably better to invest in your offensive line or quarterback position anyways. If you have a good offensive line you can probably find any guy off the street (free agent) or journeyman running back and churn out 4.0 yards a carry. You better make sure you are drafting the next Adrian Peterson or Walter Payton if you're going to use a first rounder on a runningback. I don't remember Trent Richardson ever being touted as that kind of guy coming out of college.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:00 AM    (permalink
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This used to be what we'd call a Dan Snyder type trade on the part of the Colts; big name player(in college) who hasn't shown the ability to be dominant in the pros or stay healthy, and a team that covets him trades a 1st(!!) rounder for him.

Irsay needs to stop meddling.

Are the Colts a RB away from a SB?? I don't think so.

I thought the TJ Duckett to the SKins for a 3rd rounder was a boneheaded trade.lol
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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Change of pace back... Black Mamba
That would be so disappointing as a guy who likes to watch Black Mamba work. No thank you.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:36 AM    (permalink
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Seriously. And I even thought Richardson was overrated as a prospect. Overdrafted, even, but Ahmad Bradshaw's not the most reliable guy, and if they Colts have a good season, Richardson's well-worth what'll likely end up being a draft pick in the 20s.
I'm right with you. I thought he was a pretty good prospect and right around picks 10-15, but was overrated and overdrafted. Not the best RB ever but he was very very good. He has a solid 1st year on a very bad offense and now people want to kick him around like he is complete garbage and always has been. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. One only solid year in Cleveland don't just make him suddenly a terrible player.

Colts drafted at 24 last year and I expect them to be around there again this year so the pick isn't super high or anything. I have very little confidence the Browns cash it in to a worthwhile player anyways. The Colt upgraded their offense and their running back position quite a bit with this trade and Richard son is on a cheap deal for the next 3 years. The Colts were really weak at RB last year and were really weak this year. Luck is much better when he has a even a semi decent running game behind him. 45+ passes a game with that OL is not a formula for success.

I like Bradshaw quite a bit. I though he would be a nice fill in guy for the year, but he is in no way a reliable player in the least. No one was fighting over him. He signed a 1 year deal for 1 million. He isn't even healthy now. Richardson is younger, healthier, and will be a better player for the next 3 years easy. Having Ahmad Bradshaw should have no bearing on any football personnel decisions on you team.

The deal itself is solid for both teams. Colts fix a big offensive weakness for a mid/later 1st rounder and the Browns get decent return for a recent high draft pick. The joke of it all is Cleveland has basically just spun its wheels for a few years, wasted time & opportunities, and removed the only offensive hope for their fans.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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The sad thing is that I feel like anything bad that the Browns could do, the Raiders have been there and done that. Next up is spending a dozen picks on QBs in 3 or 4 seasons.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:48 AM    (permalink
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:11 AM    (permalink
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A few thingsÖ

1.) I think itís gotten to the point where running backs are underrated in terms of draft position. Yes, itís a quarterback-driven league. Yes, itís a passing league. Those two things are undeniable. But itís still a balance league. Being able to run the football is still quite valuable. And guess what? Most of the best running backs? Drafted within the first few rounds. In fact, 75% of the top 32 rushers from the 2012 season were drafted in Rounds 1-3. (Fourteen in the first, four in the second, six in the third.) The ones that werenít? Vick Ballard, Michael Turner, Jonathan Dwyer, Ahmad Bradshaw, Bryce Brown, Alfred Morris, Arian Foster, and BenJarvus Green-Ellis. Thatís eight running backs. I bet almost one hundred running backs have been drafted after the third round in the past decade and there have been countless more undrafted free agent signings. Your odds of finding the next Arian Foster or Alfred Morris arenít near as good as believed.

Now, using that method (from the earliest class among the top 32 rushers to the most recent) does eliminate some effective backs, I admit. Marion Barber III was productive before his wheels fell off. Darren Sproles is still a matchup nightmare out of the backfield. There are other examples, too. And there is an even longer list of no-name flameouts. It doesnít just take an athlete to be a good running back.

Look, the idea of manufacturing a running game is a valid offensive concept. Teams have proven that. But encompassing blueprints donít exist in the NFL. Manufacturing a running game is the unavoidable blend of competitive and economic philosophies. In general, those running games possess one of three qualities or a combination of them. One, a franchise quarterback. This is the no-brainer. Thereís no question that even competent quarterbacking makes a lot of difference on the ground. Two, a dominant offensive line. Or three, a scheme that narrows the scope of the runner.

Well, the Browns canít check a single box there. So what does Cleveland do? Speaking in generalities is fine and good, but this is a specific situation. This is a team that doesnít have a quarterback. This is a team that doesnít have a dominant offensive line or scheme. Whatís the game plan for moving the ball? Whatís the game plan for insulating a JAG inside an unspectacular supporting cast? Whereís the cap space for five stud lineman for those that want to go that route?

The fact is that running backs still have a place in the NFL and a great running back can make his offensive line look better. Was Trent Richardson a great running back? No. Not at the moment. Do I believe that Willis McGahee can post a similar YPC average? I could believe it. Heís more nuanced at the position. But this is moving from a runner thatís 22 to a runner thatís almost 32. The evaluation shouldnít be based on just a season-long window. One has an upside thatís reachable. (This is where the running backs coach should/would have had considerable input.) The other has a downside thatís inevitable.

Iím not arguing that running backs should be one of a franchisesí first-round priorities regardless of talent level. Talent there needs to meet a higher threshold. But if a special runner is available, and thereís a need at running back, thenÖ

2.) I still donít understand how some people are making blanket statements about Richardsonís abilities based on an injured season and two games in a poor situation. Not all productive backs have come out of the gate averaging around 5 YPC. During the first two weeks of the season, Trent finished with 3.4 YPC. Thatís not ideal. But he averaged 2.4 YAC. Thatís absurd.

Yes, Trent still has to improve certain aspects of his game. He needs to be disciplined. He needs to dedicate himself to his craft. Running with better vision needs to be stressed. Itís the biggest thing holding him back. But itís foolish to suggest that he hasnít flashed at all or that thereís nothing to work with. The man is a workhorse. And heís a workhorse that can contribute on third down, too. You donít find a bunch of backs that are comfortable across all offensive situations.

3.) Itís obvious that quarterback is in managementís mind. It was a clear part of their vision in the 2013 NFL Draft. And it should be. The Browns will start their eighteenth quarterback since 1999 this week, I believe. Thatís a big part of their continual ineptitude. But people act like it was an exclusive choice between Trent Richardson and a new quarterback. I donít know where that idea came from.

Given the inauspicious start, the Browns appeared to be heading for another high draft pick before trading Richardson. BRIAN HOYER is the starting quarterback this weekend. As has been discussed in this thread, Richardson wasnít lighting the world on fire. Josh Gordon is coming back from suspension, sure, but BRIAN HOYER is the starting quarterback this weekend. Taking over an offense thatís scored one touchdown so far.

From what Iíve heard, this quarterback class is much deeper than the last one. I havenít dived into all of the prospects in detail. What was stopping the Browns from drafting one and putting him alongside Richardson? Nothing. Find a No. 2 receiver if Little doesnít come around and grab a guard that can move someone and thatís a nice little core that could coalesce under better quarterbacking. Iíve heard the second first-rounder described as ammunition for a trade. For who? Bridgewater? I still donít think the Browns are as bad as the Jaguars. And Jacksonville isnít trading down if Bridgewater is as good as advertised. Doesnít matter if the Browns give them another first. Just wonít happen. The Jaguars wonít even entertain it. The value of a franchise quarterback trumps the value of a franchise pass rusher.

Bottom-line, Trent Richardson isnít irreplaceable. Adrian Peterson is the sole irreplaceable running back in the NFL. It's not a devastating loss. It's a frustrating one. And, no, a first-round pick isnít bad compensation. But people tend to overrate the return from picks and I just hate the message that it sends the team in Week 3 of what started out as an optimistic season.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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Extra pics are great but they didn't do anything with the extra picks they got in the Julio trade. So what makes you think this time will be any different.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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Browns perspective.

I liked Trent Richardson a lot as a prospect. I thought he was one of the better prospects in his draft class. But what are the Browns giving up on? An average pro who has aided the Browns franchise in how many wins? Not many. When the pick was made I thought Richardson would be a Pro Bowl caliber running back on a terrible team. What's the point of keeping that type of player in that type of situation?

Maybe Richardson has greater flaws in his game that most of us are not recognizing. I know this much, watching Maurice Drew on a terrible Jaguars team hasn't made that franchise any better. And that's assuming that Richardson would develop into a Top 5 caliber RB in Cleveland. So what are the Browns losing? A promising RB who hasn't helped his team in the slightest thus far? Regaining a first round pick that might have gone down as a complete waste? Doesn't sound too bad the more you think about it.

This is not a RB driven league. This is a QB driven league. The Browns need a QB. Whether Richardson is apart of that or not, they need a QB. Adding another first round pick will only help them add star potential at key positions. They have 7 draft picks in the first 4 rounds next year. The ammunition is there to make an impact in 2014. Now they need to start doing something with these draft picks. Whether or not the Browns kept or dealt Richardson, it wasn't going to make a bit of difference to the win / loss record. They need(ed) a leader on offense. That wasn't going to be Richardson. Is this a good trade for the Browns? I don't know. It's not a bad one. But it's the Browns; the odds of them drafting someone good with their draft pick is unlikely despite having a pretty legit defense.


Colts perspective.

I looked at the Jim Irsay tweets and I'm apprehensive in calling the Colts 'the winners' from this trade. Are the Colts front office just looking to add name recognition, or are they actually attempting to get better? Richardson is a talented player. He has potential. He's still very young. But is he a top tier RB in this league? Absolutely not, but maybe a change of scenery will help, and maybe he'll realize that he's expendable. This could be motivation for a young talented player who thought he had the world by the balls.

Regardless, Richardson has played 17 games and hasn't averaged more than 3.5 YPC during that time span. That's a pathetic number. I would hope the Colts front office aren't just banking on the prospect that Richardson was thought to be. I hope they have watched all 17 pro tapes he's been apart of and formulated an opinion / scouting report based on that. The Irsay jizz-in-his-pants tweets sounds like some fan who's a homer and only knows Richardson's name because he went to Alabama. This isn't fantasy football. It shouldn't be about blockbuster trades and making noise. Is Richardson worth it? I don't know if he is anymore. And I'm not so sure Cleveland didn't trade Richardson when his value was the highest. It takes one knee injury for Richardson to turn into a mid round draft pick. And, not to mention, a lot of teams - most teams - don't value running backs. Very few teams would probably dish out a first rounder. The Colts just so happen to be one of them.

Richardson is going to have to improve at the NFL level. He might fit into their philosophy and scheme, but he's got to become a better pro before we anoint the Colts as the team that raped in this trade, which I don't think they did. There's no doubt Richardson is going to a better team with a better franchise. They have their leader in Andrew Luck and a good passing attack. In theory, this should be a good move for the Colts. But Richardson needs to develop into a better player than he's shown thus far.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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Extra pics are great but they didn't do anything with the extra picks they got in the Julio trade. So what makes you think this time will be any different.
It's a different front office now. Maybe they'll choose to aggressively pursue a talented QB instead of aggressively pursuing a RB and settling for another Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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I'm gonna be the first to say it.

Trent has looked like **** this year, Browns sucking or not. I understand he's not in a great situation but he hasn't shown any impressive burst or ability to make things happen at the second level. At least not what I was expecting.

Every touch for him is less than 5 yards. And that was ALSO the case last year.

Say what you will about the bad situation, but even in bad situations, good-to-great backs have good ypc.

It's quite possible the Browns just got a potentially high first round pick for an average RB.


I don't know what's more depressing, the fact that the Browns traded Richardson or the fact that Richardson was looking so mediocre that they traded him. Watch him become an all-pro back in Indy playing with Luck now. Only thing that can make this trade not sting is if TRich goes to Indy and looks like he did here :/ And I was still busy repressing the memory that we could have traded up for RGIII instead of taking a runningback in the top 3.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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...I can tell you what's gonna happen. The Jags are gonna get the #1 pick and not put it up for sale b/c they need a QB badly, and the Browns are gonna have the #2 pick and not be able to trade up for Teddy at #1. And we have no need for Clowney with a loaded unit of Kruger/Sheard/Mingo/Groves at pass rusher.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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Every team has a need for Clowney.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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The Browns taking Clowney over a talented QB would be the defensive version of taking Richardson over a QB. It's great to have big, sexy, athletic, highlight making position players, but they'll still be terrible until they find a franchise QB.
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