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Old 09-19-2013, 08:39 AM    (permalink
Don Vito
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Cleveland will draft a quarterback. They will have a shot to get Bridgewater but even if they don't they could get Hundley or Mariota if they declare, or who knows who will be in consideration when April rolls around. Bottom line is they need to take a franchise QB and barring an unlikely disastrous miracle in which they win enough games, they will be in position to do so.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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This was a great trade for Cleveland. The new regime doesn't owe anything to the old regime. Just because the old regime made 2 gigantic mistakes (Taking a RB #3 overall that lacks a specific trait that would make him great and a 30 year old qb) doesn't mean they have to waste time by letting them erode on their team.

It was smart to cut bait as quickly as possible and continue the rebuilding program.

Look at what Lombardi has done. He's done an excellent job.

-He drafted Mingo who is developing into a premier pass rusher. He parlayed 3rd round pick into a 2nd this year, he got more value for his asset.

-He brought in a great coaching staff that will maximize the talent they have.

-He loaded up on draft picks and can be very aggressive in rebuilding his offense to go along with an already great defense.

The Browns defense is legit. They're very good. Their offense is a few pieces away from being great as well. They weren't going anywhere with Weeden and Richardson is just a RB. He's not a Peterson/McCoy RB, just a very good overall RB. He parlayed that into an additional 1st round draft pick.

Now he has ammo to get the qb this team needs to compete. On top of that, if they do suck something awful this year and are in position to get that qb anyway, now he has an extra 1st and 2 2nd round draft picks to surround him with talent in an offense heavy draft.

This Cleveland team will suck this year, but next year has potential to set themselves up for the next 10 years.

If that happens, and it's very possible it will, do you think anyone will give a damn about a RB who's ceiling is top 5 RB in the league? He's collateral damage. Who cares. He's just a running back.

You win with pass rushers, cornerbacks, wide receivers and quarterbacks. That's what you need.

And he's getting his assets in order to get those players. He has the defense. Now imagine having Teddy, Gordon, Cameron, Brandon Coleman, and then drafting a talented RB in round 2 and a RT in round 2?

All of a sudden you have a studly offense to go along with a studly defense, and 2 great coordinators to maximize that talent.

Cleveland is on the right track. They got great value for a RB. It was the right move.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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With the first pick in the 2014 NFL Draft...

The Cleveland Browns select...

...

Johnny Manziel, quarterback, Texas A&M

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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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If they're picking #2 and they have 2nd round grades on all of the available QBs but an elite grade on Clowney, they'd be stupid to reach for the QB. If they have an elite grade on one of the available QBs, they'd be stupid to take Clowney.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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After stepping away from the shock of this trade yesterday, I do think it was the right move for the Browns. It is just crazy how they traded the face of their team away 2 weeks after his second season started. Richardson wasn't going to be they guy who made them a contender in the future, they need a QB and have acknowledged that Weeden is not the answer. Ballsy move as it will piss off a lot of fans, but in the long term it is the right decision.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:47 AM    (permalink
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Just like they would have been stupid to "reach" on Tannehill?

Many people probably would have thought it would have been a reach to take Roethlisberger instead of uber talented Kellen Winslow.

Drew Brees would have been viewed as a reach over Gerrard Warren in 2001.

At least when you reach for a QB, there's a chance you get a franchise changer. Taking Clowney would just be same ole Browns.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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Forget Tannehill, an even better example is EJ Manuel. Everyone laughed at taking him 16. How many of those teams who need a qb who passed on EJ are regretting it now?

When you need a qb, you get a qb. There's no such thing as reaching for a qb.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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You have to trust your scouting department and your draft board. Otherwise you're just spending millions of dollars a year on something that could be replaced by Scott Wright's big board.

You can bet that the Bills had a pretty high grade on Manuel.

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Old 09-19-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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This was a great trade for Cleveland.
What if Indy's pick is in the #25 range?
How is that a great trade?

Did they check in with other teams who are worse than Indy to see how much better they could get than the 25 or so pick?

What if the Rams or Cardinals would have offered their 1st for the young RB?
Sam Bradford just got some weapons at WR, what about a young stud RB?
Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald surely would have welcomed T-Rich to Glendale.

I'd like to know if they contacted any other teams.

IF they're going to throw in the towel and rebuild (again - poor Brown fans), why not liquidate OT Joe Thomas as well? He's older, and surely could fetch another #1 pick. If that's the goal, more and more #1 picks, why stop at Richardson, who's very young.

Who else could they liquidate?
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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If they're picking #2 and they have 2nd round grades on all of the available QBs but an elite grade on Clowney, they'd be stupid to reach for the QB. If they have an elite grade on one of the available QBs, they'd be stupid to take Clowney.
Absolutely.

There are no Andrew Lucks in the 2014 draft by the way.

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There's no such thing as reaching for a qb.
FALSE

VIKINGS 2011 Draft

#12 overall, Minnesota: QB Christian Ponder, Florida St.
#35 overall, Cincinnati: QB Andy Dalton, TCU
#36 overall, San Francisco: QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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What if Indy's pick is in the #25 range?
How is that a great trade?

Did they check in with other teams who are worse than Indy to see how much better they could get than the 25 or so pick?

What if the Rams or Cardinals would have offered their 1st for the young RB?
Sam Bradford just got some weapons at WR, what about a young stud RB?
Carson Palmer and Larry Fitzgerald surely would have welcomed T-Rich to Glendale.

I'd like to know if they contacted any other teams.

IF they're going to throw in the towel and rebuild (again - poor Brown fans), why not liquidate OT Joe Thomas as well? He's older, and surely could fetch another #1 pick. If that's the goal, more and more #1 picks, why stop at Richardson, who's very young.

Who else could they liquidate?
They're not doing a total rebuild. They're only a few pieces away. They received a 1st round pick for an asset that's easily replaceable.

Part of the issue I see if people keep blaming the new regime for the mistakes of the old regime. This new regime didn't draft Weedon or Richardson. They don't owe them anything.

Why waste time and play these guys just for the sake of playing them? Both were mistakes, move on, get an asset in return and retool the right way. That's what the new regime is doing.

Just look at the same draft class that Rich was a part of. There were several RBs in that draft. If you get a RT and a solid 2nd round RB, do you really lose anything? No way. If anything you upgrade.

And now you also have another 1st to get a WR. Or use to move up and get a franchise qb. That's an asset that cannot be overstated.

If Richardson becomes part of a package that is used to move up and select Teddy, would you lose any sleep over it? Bc I sure as hell wouldn't. He's just a running back. And he wasn't even a great one. Just a good one with potential to be top 5'ish.

Big freaking deal. So what he was a top 3 pick. That was a bad draft pick. Just because the old regime was stupid and took him 3 overall doesn't mean this new regime should be forced to keep him. They identified a mistake from the past and moved on by getting an asset in return that they can use to build their team with.

I don't see how this is such a terrible move.

And it's not a terrible move for Indy either. Both sides benefited. This was a good trade for everyone involved.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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There is no such thing as reaching when you need something.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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I rather reach for a qb and fail then wait for one to fall to my lap and miss out on a guy.

It's better to try and fail then not try at all. I believe in the big board, but I think the need at qb trumps the big board bc of how they impact the game. You have to reach for quarterbacks when you need one.

If they fail, they fail. You move on and try to get another one. But I rather risk that than risk missing out on a guy.

If the player you identified fails, it's bc your scouting department made the wrong assessment. Qbs aren't reaches. They either succeed or fail. If you think a qb is going to be a franchise qb, then there's no such thing as reaching for the guy.

If he fails, you did a poor job evaluating, but if he succeeds, he was worth his weight in gold.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Clowney doesn't strike me as the type of guy who'd be too happy playing in Cleveland, unless the Browns are a competitive team. That's a big part of why Cleveland needs a franchise QB. It would make them a more attractive team to play for.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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"The only time we ever screwed it up, and I did that several times, we spent all that time and effort putting the draft board together, then occasionally I would jump names. Dang. That never worked." -- Ron Wolf

I've spent my entire draft-following life studying the drafts of Ron Wolf and the people who learned from him, and I think he had a pretty good system (even going back to his days with the Raiders. The late Joel Buchsbaum pointed out that the Raiders were great at the draft during Wolf's two stints with the team, and very bad when he wasn't with them).

The flip side of this approach is that you'll sometimes draft a QB when you don't need one, because he's BPA, and then you have a tradeable asset a couple years down the road.

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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FALSE

VIKINGS 2011 Draft

#12 overall, Minnesota: QB Christian Ponder, Florida St.
#35 overall, Cincinnati: QB Andy Dalton, TCU
#36 overall, San Francisco: QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada
Edit: Missed your point.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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I firmly believe in BPA. I really do. I just think that QB is the only position where you keep trying until you get one. Honestly drafting becomes a whole lot easier when you have a qb. That's the hard part. Once you get a qb you just get BPA based on your board and more often than not you'll have a good draft.

But I don't care how great your team is, if you don't have a qb you won't compete on a consistent basis. You need a qb. If you need one, you have to be aggressive in getting one.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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I'm a big believer that you go after your guy at QB, but you want to make sure that he's your guy. I disagree with people who say that you should just draft the next QB who shows up the consensus media boards.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. Wolf traded a first round pick for Brett Favre, who had been a second round pick less than a year earlier (and who, by all accounts, was a drunken screwup during his first season in Atlanta). That was his guy, he had a very high grade on him, and he went all-out to get him. By all means, get your QB. And it's also true that your best shot at landing a franchise QB is to take one very high in the draft. I just don't think you should draft a QB just for the sake of drafting a QB.

There are probably scouts who had Russell Wilson as a top-5 prospect, and they're kicking themselves for not pounding the tables to try to get their GM to draft him.

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Taking Clowney would be stupid. "hey, we have 4 really good pass rushers and we just spent #6 on one last year. Let's take another pass rusher!" Then they'd have to trade a good pass rusher and they would be making lateral moves. Need a QB, RB, another WR, a couple OGs, a starting CB and a starting safety. Pretty clear cut needs. Absolutely must get a franchise QB next offseason. Front seven is the strongest unit on the team and one of the better ones in the league. Trade the rights for Clowney but the Browns have absolutely no reason to draft him.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:28 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
and teams need to be quicker to realize a guy is junk and move on. there's no reason to keep giving a guy chances, especially now, with the rookie salary structure.
Yup. I give them 2 years max. With the way the league is set up now, you know if he's your guy within 2 years. If he still sucks after year 2 you move on.

And yes, I know everyone will point out Eli but that was a different time. The league has made it a lot easier for young qbs to succeed right away nowadays. We didn't need much time to see that Ponder, Weeden, and Gabbert suck. And for me personally, throw Locker and Ponder into that fold too.

And another thing: It's not a crime to draft qbs back to back anymore. The salary structure allows for that luxury now. Don't be afraid to take a guy you believe in just because you're still waiting for your guy from before to turn the corner.

It will eventually sort itself out.

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I'm a big believer that you go after your guy at QB, but you want to make sure that he's your guy. I'm not a fan of people who say that you should just draft the next QB who shows up the consensus media boards.

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. Wolf traded a first round pick for Brett Favre, who had been a second round pick less than a year later (and who, by all accounts, was a drunken screwup during his first season in Atlanta). That was his guy, he had a very high grade on him, and he went all-out to get him. By all means, get your QB. And it's also true that your best shot at landing a franchise QB is to take one very high in the draft. I just don't think you should draft a QB just for the sake of drafting a QB.

There are probably scouts who had Russell Wilson as a top-5 prospect, and they're kicking themselves for not pounding the tables to try to get their GM to draft him.
Yes. Absolutely. I firmly believe in this as well. You identify your guy, and then you move the earth and sun to go get him. Eli and RG3 proved you can never overpay for your guy.

Don't think you can just wait for the next guy and he'll produce too. Identify your guy, and be aggressive in getting him.

Because realistically, even in a qb heavy draft, only 1 or 2 of those guys will pan out anyway. So you want to make sure you identify who your favorite is, and just be aggressive in getting him.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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I think you have to give yourself a chance to draft a possible QB of the future.
Ask Chief fans about that, you typically don't win by signing cast offs or trading for a QB. You win by drafting your guy and grooming him.
Look at the past Super Bowl winners and their QB's
2012 - Flacco, drafted by the Ravens
2011 - Eli Manning, drafted by the Giants
2010 - Rodgers, drafted by Packers
2009 - Brees, signed as a FA by Saints
2008 - Roethlisberger, drafted by Steelers
2007 - Eli, drafted by Giants
2006 - Peyton, drafted by Colts
2005 - Roethlisberger, drafted by Steelers
2003 and 2004, Brady, drafted by Patriots

Out of the last 10 Super Bowls, only once was the winning QB not drafted by the team he was playing for.
1999-2002 you actually have 3, with Warner, Dilfer and Brad Johnson, but two of those QB's were awful and lucked out being on a superb defensive team. Warner, on an elite offense.

The key now is to get your QB, the other pieces like RB can be found almost anywhere.
Forte, 2nd round
McCoy, 2nd round
Morris, 6th round
Foster, undrafted
Charles, 3rd/4th rounder I think
Murray, 3rd round
Tate, 3rd/4th rounder i think?
Ridley/Vereen, 2nd/3rd round
The ever great Christine Michael was a 2nd rounder too
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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I mean heck, the Browns could potentially pursue Ben Tate in free agency this offseason, draft their franchise QB, draft another OL to shore up the OL.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:40 AM    (permalink
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And another thing: It's not a crime to draft qbs back to back anymore. The salary structure allows for that luxury now. Don't be afraid to take a guy you believe in just because you're still waiting for your guy from before to turn the corner.

It will eventually sort itself out.
I really like what Jimmy Johnson did when he first went to Dallas. He basically used two consecutive #1 picks on QBs (Troy Aikman in the regular draft, Steve Walsh in the supplemental draft). Walsh was a bust, but Aikman was a Hall of Fame QB. In hindsight, the Walsh pick seems like a wasted pick, but it worked out for them because they probably would have taken Blair Thomas #1 instead of picking Emmitt Smith later in the first round.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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It's better to try and fail then not try at all.
Chiefs fans everywhere cry at this statement.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Going to agree with a few posters here and say there definitely is a logic to this trade for the Browns. Running back is a position of declining importance. This is a very small sample size, but through the first two weeks there were only seven 100+ rushing performances from the position. In addition, running backs are generally easier to find later on, more so than many other positions. They could reasonably find someone to match Richardson's production (to date) on the second or third day. So getting a first round pick for a player who's position isn't as important as it used to be and who's production can be replaced with later pick definitely makes a lot of sense. They can either use that new pick in a package to move up and take their guy, presumably a QB, or hold tight and add two first round talents to their roster next year.

That being said, can't say I'd personally trade my #3 pick who's had a decent showing so far after only 18 games, especially for a draft pick.
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