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Old 10-10-2013, 01:15 AM    (permalink
bigbuc
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Default NY Giants

With them playing on Thursday night. Looking like they will be going 0-6. The D is a wreck. The Oline is worse than a wreck. Nicks will be a FA next year. And Eli will be 33 with a 20 million cap hit.


Do you draft a new QB if you get your hands on a Teddy Bridgewater or Brett Hundley?
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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They need help at a lot of positions. Their OL needs to be rebuilt; they need some impact DL now that Osi and Tuck are history and Pierre Paul has been exposed as a one year wonder; they need more DBs; they need quality RB depth; they need quality TEs.

I think Eli has some good years left but the rebuilding process might be longer than the time he has left in the league. Starting from scratch with a new QB and new coach might not be the worst idea for this franchise, especially if they can trade Eli for draft picks or something.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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cfg is gonna hate seeing this thread.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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lol well played big buc, perfect AT bait. Now he's just gotta keep running with it and try to talk **** about Prince.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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cfg is gonna hate seeing this thread.
Why? We're playing like crap, it's well established that when a team plays bad ignorant people assume that means the entire team is crap and so they come up with stupid ideas like trying to blame JPP for having a ****** up back, or suggesting we pick a QB to sit behind eli for the next 4-6 years, or suggest something even dumber like trading Eli.
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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Why? We're playing like crap, it's well established that when a team plays bad ignorant people assume that means the entire team is crap and so they come up with stupid ideas like trying to blame JPP for having a ****** up back, or suggesting we pick a QB to sit behind eli for the next 4-6 years, or suggest something even dumber like trading Eli.

How is what I said any different from what just happened with the Colts 2 years ago? Eli is playing like ass. The Oline is trash ( top 3 worst in the league ) and the D line that won you two SB's is a joke now. JPP has been hurt. Tuck hasn't been even close to the 8-10 sack player he was 3 years ago. Kiwi is not Osi and is also 30 years old. You might also have the least amount of talent at the LB core in the league.

I'm sorry that's a lot of fixing to do for a football team. Oh and it's even harder with a QB that's taking up 18-22% of your cap space. So sorry if I upset by saying it's worth a look at the Top QB's in the draft cause not only are you getting younger, but the QB's being locked into 5 million a year for the first 3 years really help at clearing the books, getting younger and faster. Oh yeah and maybe keeping Nicks.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:47 AM    (permalink
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The Giants have major issues starting at the top of the franchise. Their drafting has been horrendous lately. When Reese took over he had a great draft in 2007, and solid ones in 2008 and 2009.

If you look at the 2009 Draft and just look at what they've added through the draft, this is, basically, what you have over the last 5 years:

Hakeem Nicks (2009)
William Beatty (2009)
Andre Brown (2009)
Jason Pierre Paul (2010)
Prince Amukamara (2011)
David Wilson (2012)
Reuben Randall (2012)
Justin Pugh (2013)

That's one star player (JPP). One player who could be a star, but doesn't put in the work (Nicks) and bunch of other guys who are little more than solid starters (that's being generous). Amukamara is the only guy that looks like he could develop into a high caliber player.

The loss of Ahmad Bradshaw hurts them more than they think. He is a really good player, but just can't stay on the field for 16 games with how violent he is as a runner. Their offensive line is old and/or terrible in the middle. Their offensive tackles aren't even average (Pugh could develop into an above player). They can't block. They don't have a RB that can hold onto the football. Their 1st round draft pick (Wilson) is playing for the wrong head coach.

Their defensive line stinks. JPP isn't healthy, but he's on an island by himself. Justin Tuck needs to stop doing interviews or making public announcements about punching people in the mouth because with his play, he should have been cut last year. You can't be a leader if you're not a productive player. Doesn't work. He has become worthless. As much as I hate to say it, but he's simply worthless. He can't get to the QB at all and isn't what he was against the run. He makes hustle / effort plays now. That's it. Their DTs are terrible. Their linebackers are even worse and Aaron Ross and Antrel Rolle are starters. That's not good.

Combine all that with Eli playing some of the worst football of his career, then it makes sense why they stink. Eli also isn't the type of leader that's going to impose his will on an opponent that inspires his teammates. He needs too much going right around him to be great, and he can be great. He's just not the type that's going to carry this team through adversity. Not one this bad.

But I think they need a coaching change. Not Coughlin, but Gilbride. He runs an offense that needs to be perfect. The scheme relies on good blocking, competent receivers to run the proper routes pending the coverage and a QB who is on the same page with those receivers. It's turnover heaven when it doesn't work. I don't know how you can settle for a scheme that requires so much. When things are good, they're good, but when they're bad, they're bad.

Perry Fewell doesn't have much talent to work with. Some of their best talent is hurt or playing at less than 75% right now. So it's hard to critique him, especially since he won a Super Bowl for them with a good defensive run in the playoffs. OC tough, I don't like it.

I really would consider trading Eli Manning, and really starting over. They've had a good run. Two Super Bowls. Maybe Coughlin and Eli deserve better, but it's a cutthroat business.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:09 AM    (permalink
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I doubt they give up on Eli. He is good enough to stick around for 2-4 years at best. I think they wait a couple years to go after a serious QB in the draft. Who knows if there will even be any good QBs in this draft.

I feel that some Giants fans on here are underselling that the Giants are really bad. Its not going to be 1 or 2 changes and back to kicking ass (although maybe with how bad the NFCE is). Team records like this get coaches and GMs fired. I'd expect a lot of changes all around so nothing should be secure for the future. Not every piece in place now will fit with a new system. They have a lot of work to do.


I agree on the offense BigBanger. It sounds like there are so many places that it can fail. So many times I hear that the WR ran the wrong route and Eli throws a pick. It doesn't seem like the complexity is adding that much value. It makes it even harder to find WRs who fit in a position already hard to fill.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:12 AM    (permalink
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Whatever happened to Rosebud? I guess he decided to skip this season.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:20 AM    (permalink
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Why? We're playing like crap, it's well established that when a team plays bad ignorant people assume that means the entire team is crap and so they come up with stupid ideas like trying to blame JPP for having a ****** up back, or suggesting we pick a QB to sit behind eli for the next 4-6 years, or suggest something even dumber like trading Eli.
Sort of like comparing Romo to Schuab.

A better play would be something like this...

Quote:
The Giants certainly need to move on from turnover prone QB Eli Manning and his league leading 12 interceptions. His 53.7% completion percentage is Freeman-esque and below EVERY SINGLE QB IN THE LEAGUE aside from Gabbert and the aforementioned Freeman.

The Giants would have a more reliable QB if they traded Eli for the young, and talented , Christian Ponder whose 59% completion percentage is miles ahead of Eli. QBR tells the same story. The most telling stat is how Eli Manning is choking away the Giants chances of victory with the SECOND WORST mark for 4th Quarter QBR of 43.9. It is quite clear he cannot handle the pressure situations in the 4th and the Giants will need to move on to a QB with better marks in the 4th. Perhaps striving for a QB in the top 10 in 4th quarter QBR like division rival Dallas Cowboys with a 104.6 rating. Of course that would be an impossible task given that Eli Manning has never thrown for higher than a 93.1 QBR.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:23 AM    (permalink
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The Giants should trade Eli Manning and their top draft pick to the Jags and draft Teddy Bridgewater. Then they should trade JPP to the Eagles for Brandon Graham then they will win loads of Superbowlzzz

Seriously though, the Giants suffer from a lack of talent at specific spots on their team. Moving on from the positions that actually have talent is not a good way to go. Depending on where they are drafting they should take the best available player. If that's Clowney then it's Clowney. If it's Barr then it's Barr. If it's Jake Matthews then so be it etc.

Unless you are in serious need for a QB then when you pick high you go for the best player, regardless of position. Hell, look at the Cardinals from a few years ago. How many people are saying, "hey it's ok that we passed on Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, Darrelle Revis etc because we needed an OT and Levi Brown was there"
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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Whatever happened to Rosebud? I guess he decided to skip this season.
Probably hung himself after he saw "the biggest **** hole on the planet Cleveland" was having a better year than his Giants.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:36 AM    (permalink
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You guys are kidding right ?

cgf is rosebud.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:39 AM    (permalink
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I think they just need to rebuild their OL and get a new DC because something stinks about their defense.
Sooner or later, they have to ask themselves if Coughlin has run his course, because good HC's don't get completely bombed like the Giants are.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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How is what I said any different from what just happened with the Colts 2 years ago? Eli is playing like ass. The Oline is trash ( top 3 worst in the league ) and the D line that won you two SB's is a joke now. JPP has been hurt. Tuck hasn't been even close to the 8-10 sack player he was 3 years ago. Kiwi is not Osi and is also 30 years old. You might also have the least amount of talent at the LB core in the league.

I'm sorry that's a lot of fixing to do for a football team. Oh and it's even harder with a QB that's taking up 18-22% of your cap space. So sorry if I upset by saying it's worth a look at the Top QB's in the draft cause not only are you getting younger, but the QB's being locked into 5 million a year for the first 3 years really help at clearing the books, getting younger and faster. Oh yeah and maybe keeping Nicks.
I sometimes seriously wonder if people have any conception of how to build a football team through effective cap management. Ok I agree with you that the Giants are a lot further away from being a contender than some fans of that team may believe. However, trading away your 32 year old franchise passer to save $15 million is idiotic.

The Giants could cut these players and save $21,325,000 next season:

Snee- 7,250,000
Rolle- 7,250,000
Myers- 3,250,000
Baas- 1,775,000
Kiwi- 1,800,000

and that is by including the $19,325,000 in dead space that would roll off of the books in 2015. Boom, I just created plenty of cap space all while avoiding trading the best asset they have for an unknown quantity, and I saved them the opportunity to draft another high eschelon prospect in the draft.

The method you described is similar to the one the Jets took with Revis which was stupid. If a team has cap problems it's usually because it has a ton of overpaid vets, and hasn't drafted well in the past few years. The Jets had/have Holmes, Sanchez, Scott, Pace, Pouha, and Harris, and the Giants have the aforementioned guys. Cut the fat off your roster and deal with the dead money for a year. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than targeting your best player because he's the highest paid. He's the one actually earning his pay, and giving you a competitive advantage over other teams.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:54 AM    (permalink
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You guys are kidding right ?

cgf is rosebud.
I suspected that, since that's the case may I direct you over to this thread for some lulz?

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Oh cmarq. Just cause they're good enough to stay in the race doesn't mean they're good enough to have a legit shot at pulling it off.

As for the giants ok, care to try and make the argument that our Defense won't be significantly better? JPP and Tuck can't be as banged up as last year, our DT depth is miles better, we added Moore to the young stable of DEs being groomed behind the starters, our LBs are less horrendous as last year, Webster's hand is fixed, Prince has another year of experience to continue beasting. Brown is the only part of the D who's unlikely to be as good as last year while pretty much every single other aspect of the D is unlikely to be as bad as last year, still won't be good by any stretch, but they won't be any worse than they have been the past two years. So seriously bro, go for it, this'll be funnier than your list of QBs who are clearly better than Cutler.

Eli's already lead offensive juggernauts, he's lead top 3 scoring offenses and two years ago Eli lead a passing game that not just carried the giants to the division crown but lead them to the SB. Now he's got even more weapons, with a better OL and running and you don't think he'll be even better? Please try to explain that.

Giants got very complacent last year and ****** it up down the stretch because they were coming off a SB win, do you really think it's more likely that complacency returns rather than the team taking the wake up call the received last year and finishing strong?
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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How is what I said any different from what just happened with the Colts 2 years ago?
It's not too different to what happened to the Colts. The few major differences are Bridgewater is NOT Andrew Luck and Coughlin is not Jim Caldwell. Bridgewater is a great player but he's not the once in a decade Luck type of prospect. Also it's still way too early to say we will be picking #1.

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Old 10-10-2013, 08:35 AM    (permalink
Jughead10
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The Giants could cut these players and save $21,325,000 next season:

Snee- 7,250,000
Rolle- 7,250,000
Myers- 3,250,000
Baas- 1,775,000
Kiwi- 1,800,000
And outside of Rolle, I see all those player potentially being cut. Maybe we'd keep Baas as basically just a body on the line if we can't completely overhaul it. Snee may just straight up retire.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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I doubt they give up on Eli. He is good enough to stick around for 2-4 years at best. I think they wait a couple years to go after a serious QB in the draft. Who knows if there will even be any good QBs in this draft.

I feel that some Giants fans on here are underselling that the Giants are really bad. Its not going to be 1 or 2 changes and back to kicking ass (although maybe with how bad the NFCE is). Team records like this get coaches and GMs fired. I'd expect a lot of changes all around so nothing should be secure for the future. Not every piece in place now will fit with a new system. They have a lot of work to do.


I agree on the offense BigBanger. It sounds like there are so many places that it can fail. So many times I hear that the WR ran the wrong route and Eli throws a pick. It doesn't seem like the complexity is adding that much value. It makes it even harder to find WRs who fit in a position already hard to fill.
If Reese gets fired (which is more interesting than the Eli question) then I think the Giants QB situation depends on whether or not they promote from within or look outside the organization. If they promote a guy like Ross (who would seem like a strong candidate) then I think they're more likely to try to salvage things and maybe squeeze out one last hurrah with Eli. If they bring in an outside guy with no professional or emotional attachment to Eli, he's going to want to get his own QB who can stick around for 10+ years.

There is some precedent for terrible teams promoting from within and not having it end horribly, so I wouldn't rule that out.

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Old 10-10-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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If Reese gets fired (which is more interesting than the Eli question) then I think the Giants QB situation depends on whether or not they promote from within or look outside the organization. If they promote a guy like Ross (who would seem like a strong candidate) then I think they're more likely to try to salvage things and maybe squeeze out one last hurrah with Eli. If they bring in an outside guy with no professional or emotional attachment to Eli, he's going to want to get his own QB who can stick around for 10+ years.

There is some precedent for terrible teams promoting from within and not having it end horribly, so I wouldn't rule that out.
I don't think Reese will get fired although I think he is more of the issue than Coughlin. At this point I also wouldn't want Ross to be promoted. He's been a "hot" name for other GM jobs and hasn't landed any of them. I'm starting to wonder why. Combine that with our weak drafts the last 3 years and I'm concerned.

But at the end of the day, Reese never got to hire a coaching staff. He inherited this staff, so I think he'll get the opportunity to hire a new one before his time is done. Sadly I think Coughlin gets fired, but mostly because of age. If we are going to go into full rebuilding mode, I think they'll want a younger coach to see it through.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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That's one star player (JPP).

But I think they need a coaching change. Not Coughlin, but Gilbride. He runs an offense that needs to be perfect. The scheme relies on good blocking, competent receivers to run the proper routes pending the coverage and a QB who is on the same page with those receivers. It's turnover heaven when it doesn't work. I don't know how you can settle for a scheme that requires so much. When things are good, they're good, but when they're bad, they're bad.


I really would consider trading Eli Manning, and really starting over. They've had a good run. Two Super Bowls. Maybe Coughlin and Eli deserve better, but it's a cutthroat business.
JPP isn't a star. I won't be like Thumper and say he sucks but there are easily 15 pass rushers I would take over him (and that is without even looking into it). He is a fine player, but far from a star.

I do agree that a coaching change is needed. He is the oldest coach in the NFL by 5 years (Carroll is 62? Did not think he was that old). I think at the Giants should privately ask him to retire. Coughlin can announce it with 5 or 6 games left and have a nice farewell tour.

I'm curious what a team would trade for Eli. He has 5 years left in him (at best). It would have to be a team with established talent because a crap team likely shouldn't give up picks like that for a short rental. Maybe Eli in Minnesota or Cleveland?

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You guys are kidding right ?

cgf is rosebud.
At first I thought that Renji but then he goes and starts talking about the Giants and I was confused.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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No chance we trade our best player.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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I suspected that, since that's the case may I direct you over to this thread for some lulz?
For what it's worth our D is actually decent this year, they're just on the field constantly because our OL has turned our offense into a completely useless unit. I totally underestimated just how bad that interior OL is. I mean it's so bad that Beatty, who was one of our best players last year at any position, is having a craptastic start to the year. Myers being the single worst blocking TE I've seen in the giants Uniform doesn't help, and our RBs struggling so much as personal protector that we had to bring back Jacobs' corpse is also pretty indicting.

This team has plenty of changes that need to happen, but this is the NFL, roster turnover is a big part of the game and teams can make sweeping changes in one or two summers. For the giants we have two crippling weaknesses on the roster, we have a lot of complacent vets scattered around, and we've got a coaching staff that clearly isn't getting through to the team (just look at how little fight they have once things start to go wrong). Cutting those vets and firing at least our coordinators would go a long ways towards addressing that weak mentality. If we sign an FA OL, draft clowney and then draft a guard or center in the second that'll also address our two crippling weaknesses on the roster. Sure our LBs still will be as bad as they were during our superbowl runs, and we'll still be banking on the oldies giving us good snaps on the outside opposite Prince and inside next to Joseph/Hankins, but those aren't fatal flaws the way our interior OL and pass rush are.

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It's not too different to what happened to the Colts. The few major differences are Bridgewater is NOT Andrew Luck and Coughlin is not Jim Caldwell. Bridgewater is a great player but he's not the once in a decade Luck type of prospect. Also it's still way too early to say we will be picking #1.
Eli's also 4 (I think it's just 4) years younger than Peyton was, and isn't coming off a career-threatening injury. Plus we've got a lot more talent still in place with Cruz, Nicks, Randle, Wilson, Beatty, Pugh, JPP, Moore, the DTs, Jacquain, and the secondary.

And yes Cleveland is still the greatest shithole of a city you'll find in this country. Mediocre football team not withstanding.

And not that that's what's still being discussed but that thread was about who has had a more painful tenure for his fans between Romo and Schaub, I repeatedly acknowledge how vastly superior Tony Romo is as a QB.

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Whatever happened to Rosebud? I guess he decided to skip this season.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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You're allowing 37 points a game.... Turnovers are a problem, but you're allowing 37 points a game. It's impossible to argue that they've been decent.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Yeah. Thought that could have been you.

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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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