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Old 10-23-2013, 11:02 PM    (permalink
DcmRulz
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I think the best strategy is to try to draft good players, and try to not draft bad players.
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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The next explosive thread: "The best way to get a good QB is to draft one in the first round". You aren't saying anything people don't already know.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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If all the high quality quarterback prospects are off the board, why the hell would you draft one? Better yet, if you feel you're already set there, why would you draft one instead of an additional piece to help the team?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:13 AM    (permalink
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If it's a really good running back, you should take him if he can help your team more than another position can. If the Saints could add Jamal Charles or even a past version of Ray Rice, I'd be ecstatic. Doesn't HAVE to be a Peterson to be super valuable.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:00 AM    (permalink
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The overall premise of the thread has some merit but it is way too wide and not completely thought out.

Firstly, I agree that the top pick or the first few picks should not be spent on a RB. However, at some point the value becomes right.

Without using hindsight the Adrian Peterson pick was a good pick. This is a guy who has been the consensus top player at his position basically since he entered the league and was named MVP. What position other than QB could do more for the Vikings than Peterson?

Even using the players picked after him it is tough. Do Darrelle Revis or Patrick Willis make the Vikings contenders? You can argue that DE, OT and CB have the most positional value after a QB. As I have stated, Revis was picked shortly after Peterson. And Revis is basically the CB version of Peterson as in he has basically been the top guy since he came into the league. But, Revis didn't win a Superbowl for the Jets.

As for the other two positions, should the Vikings have picked Jamaal Anderson? What about Joe Staley at OT? Would either of these players have been better picks?

At some stage you have to trust your scouting department to make the right recommendations and for the head coach/GM to make the right call.

No team can win in the NFL with just one player, regardless who they are or what position they play. Generally teams that pick high are in need of numerous upgrades, and likely one at QB.

Using the example of the Saints taking Mark Ingram. Would the Saints offense be better if the Vikings passed up on Peterson along with everyone else and they drafted him over Robert Meachem?
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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I read a stat on twitter that said something like 80% of all starting RBs in the league going into this season were either 1st or 2nd round picks.

Don't know how reliable that is, if someone can map it out that would be cool to know.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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AFC E: Ridley 3rd. Miller 4th. Spiller 1st. Powell/Ivory 4th/UDFA

AFC W: Mathews 1st. DMC 1st. Charles 3rd. Moreno 2nd.

AFC N: Bell 2nd. Rice 2nd. McGahee? 1st. BJGE UDFA

AFC S: CJ?K 1st. Richardson 1st. Foster UDFA. MJD 2nd.

NFC E: Murray 3rd.

That's 7 starters not from rounds 1/2 and makes it less than 80%.

[/end list] lol
Morris / D.Richardson / Sproles (or any non-Ingram Saints RB) make 3 more, too.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Hmm, good to know. Thanks for that. Still a lot of of 1st and 2nd rounders though. Moreno was a 1st round pick btw.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Hmm, good to know. Thanks for that. Still a lot of of 1st and 2nd rounders though. Moreno was a 1st round pick btw.
Right. Typed 2nd and looked it up but didn't fix it.

So 69% are 1st / 2nd round selections.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Right. Typed 2nd and looked it up but didn't fix it.

So 69% are 1st / 2nd round selections.
That's still a good amount. I guess the lesson here is whenever you talk about any position, even RB, the majority of the starters will likely be higher round selections.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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NFC East: McCoy 1, Wilson 1
NFC North: Peterson 1, Bush 1, Lacy 2, Forte 2
NFC South: Jackson 1, Martin 1, Williams 1
NFC West: Lynch 1, Mendenhall 1

That's 20/32, or 63%. Still a very significant percentage, especially when everyone here seems to believes its stupid to draft one that high. That might be a higher percentage than any other position besides QB.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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NFC East: McCoy 1, Wilson 1
NFC North: Peterson 1, Bush 1, Lacy 2, Forte 2
NFC South: Jackson 1, Martin 1, Williams 1
NFC West: Lynch 1, Mendenhall 1

That's 20/32, or 63%. Still a very significant percentage, especially when everyone here seems to believes its stupid to draft one that high. That might be a higher percentage than any other position besides QB.
McCoy was a late second round pick.

Mendenhall is a bust. Wilson and Martin showed early promise but are injured for the year. Jackson was a good player but never led STL to anything. Carolina ****** up by drafting two RBs and thinking they were going to lead the team.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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McCoy was a late second round pick.

Mendenhall is a bust. Wilson and Martin showed early promise but are injured for the year. Jackson was a good player but never led STL to anything. Carolina ****** up by drafting two RBs and thinking they were going to lead the team.
I dont know if Id call Mendenhall a bust. He just had a short run of success, which is common among running backs. He was pretty good for a couple years though, but too many injuries, and he has clearly lost something at this point in his career.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Being a 1st rounder just gives you more chances. Trent Richardson shouldnt be a starting RB now. Neither should Mendenhall. Andre Ellington is a million times better than Mendenhall.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Even Adrian Peterson isn't worthy of a first round draft pick. The Vikings barely made the playoffs, and he had an MVP season. Conversely, if their quarterback played as good as he did, then they would have won the Super Bowl.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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Even Adrian Peterson isn't worthy of a first round draft pick. The Vikings barely made the playoffs, and he had an MVP season. Conversely, if their quarterback played as good as he did, then they would have won the Super Bowl.
Yeah, stupid Minnesota for not drafting an MVP quarterback instead that year.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:13 AM    (permalink
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Even Adrian Peterson isn't worthy of a first round draft pick. The Vikings barely made the playoffs, and he had an MVP season. Conversely, if their quarterback played as good as he did, then they would have won the Super Bowl.
That's not how it works. A first round pick one year doesn't equal a first round pick in other years.

As for the Peterson thing, how did the Texans do last year with JJ Watt doing JJ Watt things?

I JJ Watt not worth a first rounder by that logic?

In an ideal world teams that need one will take a franchise QB in the first round but as we know that just does not happen.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:14 AM    (permalink
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Only Quarterbacks are worth first round picks. All 32 teams should draft a HOF QB, then they can cancel the draft.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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That's not how it works. A first round pick one year doesn't equal a first round pick in other years.

As for the Peterson thing, how did the Texans do last year with JJ Watt doing JJ Watt things?

I JJ Watt not worth a first rounder by that logic?

In an ideal world teams that need one will take a franchise QB in the first round but as we know that just does not happen.
You're comparing apples to oranges. After having a quarterback who can distribute the ball at an elite level, the next most important thing you need are players who can slow down the other team's passing attack. JJ Watt single handedly wreaked havoc on the other team's passing attack last year.

Running backs don't win you game. A quarterback who can distribute the ball at an elite level and players who can slow down the other team's passing game do.

Also, running backs are a dime a dozen.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Being a 1st rounder just gives you more chances. Trent Richardson shouldnt be a starting RB now. Neither should Mendenhall. Andre Ellington is a million times better than Mendenhall.
they bring different skill sets to the table, thats why they both get carries.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ph90702 View Post
Also, running backs are a dime a dozen.
Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like itís a peach of cake.
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:54 AM    (permalink
DeadEagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alex View Post
Allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there. Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like itís a peach of cake.





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Old 10-25-2013, 12:32 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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Just out of boredom I checked out the RBs taken in the first 2 rounds since 2000. I am grading them A-F, based on the value given to the team who drafted them.

2000
#5 Jamal Lewis - A
#7 Thomas Jones - D
#11 Ron Dayne - F
#19 Shaun Alexander - A
#31 Trung Candidate - F

Notable later round RBs
#82 Reuben Droughns
#153 Dante Hall
#189 Mike Anderson
#239 Patrick Pass

2001
#5 LaDainian Tomlinson - A
#23 Deuce McAllister - B
#27 Michael Bennett - D
#38 Anthony Thomas - C
#49 Lamont Jordan - C
#58 Travis Henry - B

Notable later round RBs
#100 Rudi Johnson

2002
#16 William Green - F
#18 T.J. Duckett - C
#34 DeShaun Foster - C
#51 Clinton Portis - A+ (Bonus value points for production plus getting a HOF CB in trade)
#54 Maurice Morris - D
#56 Ladell Betts - C

Notable later round RBs
#91 Brian Westbrook
#207 Chester Taylor

2003
#23 Willis McGahee - B
#27 Larry Johnson - B
Supplemental Tony Hollings - F

Notable later round RBs
#101 Domanick Davis
#105 Onterrio Smith

2004
#24 Steven Jackson - B
#26 Chris Perry - D
#30 Kevin Jones - D
#41 Tatum Bell - F
#43 Julius Jones - C
#55 Greg Jones - B

Notable later round RBs
#154 Michael Turner

2005
#2 Ronnie Brown - D
#4 Cedric Benson - F
#5 Cadillac Williams - D
#44 J.J. Arrington - D
#54 Eric Shelton - F

Notable later round RBs
#65 Frank Gore
#109 Marion Barber
#110 Brandon Jacobs
#130 Darren Sproles

2006
#2 Reggie Bush - B
#21 Laurence Maroney - C
#27 DeAngelo Williams - A
#30 Joseph Addai - B
#45 LenDale White - D
#60 Maurice Jones-Drew - A

Notable later round RBs
#117 Leon Washington
#145 Jerome Harrison

2007
#7 Adrian Peterson - A
#12 Marshawn Lynch - F (For Buffalo, made worse by trading him for nothing)
#49 Kenny Irons - D
#50 Chris Henry - F
#52 Brian Leonard - C
#63 Brandon Jackson - F

Notable later round RBs
#100 Michael Bush
#250 Ahmad Bradshaw

2008
#4 Darren McFadden - C
#13 Jonathan Stewart - B
#22 Felix Jones - C
#23 Rashard Mendenhall - C
#24 Chris Johnson - A
#44 Matt Forte - A
#55 Ray Rice - A

Notable later round RBs
#73 Jamaal Charles
#89 Steve Slaton
#227 Peyton Hillis

2009
#12 Knowshon Moreno - F
#27 Donald Brown - C
#31 Beanie Wells - D
#53 LeSean McCoy - B

Notable later round RBs
#65 Shonn Greene

2010
#9 C.J. Spiller - D
#12 Ryan Mathews - D
#30 Jahvid Best - D
#36 Dexter McCluster - C
#51 Toby Gerhart - C
#58 Ben Tate - C
#59 Montario Hardesty - F

Notable later round RBs
#197 Trindon Holliday

2011
#28 Mark Ingram - F
#38 Ryan Williams - D
#56 Shane Vereen - B
#57 Mikel Leshoure - C
#62 Daniel Thomas - C

Notable later round RBs
#71 Demarco Murray
#73 Stevan Ridley
#105 Ray Helu

2012
#3 Trent Richardson - B (SOLELY on getting a First Rounder for him)
#31 Doug Martin - A
#32 David Wilson - D
#50 Isaiah Pead - F
#61 LaMichael James - C

Notable later round RBs
#173 Alfred Morris
#229 Bryce Brown

----------
Conclusion, there can be value in the first 2 Rounds for RBs, but generally teams waste picks that high.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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So do all the other positions now.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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I think people need to factor in classes that weren't 2008. The only reason Forte, Rice and Charles went that late was because of all the other backs in front of them.

I had Forte, Rice and Charles all as a 1/2 grade, which means late 1 early 2nd.

There's players at nearly every position that come from the middle to late or even undrafted to have success. I see just as many 2nd and 3rd rounders that don't pan out, and now with the money you're not out as big of an investment.

When half the players in a first round bust, is it wrong to take a RB you think is the BPA in the first? No, it's not
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