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Old 12-06-2013, 07:54 PM    (permalink
Scott Wright
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
Barr over Clowney would be laughable.
Barr may not be quite as physically talented as Clowney but is a freak in his own right.

Plus Barr has impeccable intangibles whereas that's a pretty big concern with Clowney.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Barr may not be quite as physically talented as Clowney but is a freak in his own right.

Plus Barr has impeccable intangibles whereas that's a pretty big concern with Clowney.
Sounds like Aaron Curry.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Sounds like Aaron Curry.
and Clowney can be compared to Courtney Brown.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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The problem with using a #1 overall pick on a D-lineman, is that even if he's great, it's not going to turn around a franchise. At least there's a chance a QB can dramatically change the Texans. Mario Williams is a good player, but what did the Texans accomplish with him?

Also, there's a chance the Texans won't be able to afford to keep Watt and Clowney together beyond Clowney's rookie contract. If they both command top pass rusher contracts, can the Texans really afford to pay them both.
This is not an actual reason to not take him. This is ridiculous. You WANT your first round picks to command huge contracts - that means they've been great players for you...

If they take BW and he's great, you'd have to pay him even more.


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Originally Posted by ArkyRamsFan View Post
One thing I would like to add to this discussion. If the Texans pass on Bridgewater for Clowney are they willing to allow him to fall to a division rival like the Jags?

If he develops like most believe they'll have the dubious pleasure of facing both Luck and Bridgewater 4 times per year.

Good luck with that.......
Substitute Clowney and you have an even worse problem... lol

The crux of this argument is BW vs. JC as prospects.

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Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
The Texans have to take Teddy Bridgewater. It shouldn't even be a debate.

However, if for some reason they did go in another direction the most likely alternatives would obviously be Jadeveon Clowney, Jake Matthews or perhaps even Anthony Barr.

I think the more interesting question is what do the Jaguars do outside of the Top 5?
It's not even a debate? Really?

Bridgewater is a good QB prospect. Clowney has the potential to be the premiere defensive player of his generation. The first step, the size, the power, the speed.

The concerns about his 'dip' in performance and effort this year are overblown. The rules made him stay in college when he clearly didn't want to or need to. It's understandable that he reacted the way he did. But it's not like he sat out the season.

What's real are the new reports about concerns about his family and entourage. Teams will have to do their due diligence.

But I'm not really concerned with those issues. Either teams will be confident in his ability to work and stay out of trouble and trust him or they won't. If you aren't, you obviously don't take him. I'm talking about a situation where his character checks out, and you're simply evaluating him as a football player.

I think we're underrating how good of a prospect he is if/when that other stuff checks out. He's just too gifted to pass on when you stack him up against BW, a good prospect but no Andrew Luck.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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I do agree with you, and it was pointedly that I avoided hyperbole and said he was "good" at everything. I think I also made my case for why I do think he's as good a pick as any for them at no. 1 - unlike Bradford, he's got a very high athleticism rating, too, and we've seen a lot more ability to create and respond to pressure without making crucial mistakes. Everybody improves, so what I see with Bridgewater is someone who plays well, from a technical as well as improvisational standpoint (great mechanics but doesn't need a clean pocket) and also has shown in college that he can be "the guy" on his team and really take charge of a game. It's his game. I think what you want to see in a college quarterback is that sort of Kobe Bryant-like ability to make the game his. Yes, it's always a team team when it comes down to it, but you want one of those guys who was clearly in charge, clearly the best player, and excelled while bearing a ton of responsibility. So with Bridgewater, I just look at him and see everything I need to see, so I don't want to over-think it just because he doesn't have a huuuuuge arm or something. I think Andrew Luck got a ton more exposure playing at Stanford and against PAC-10 teams, but of course, he was on better teams, too. Sure doesn't hurt to be playing with a bunch of other NFL players.

But anyways - I do absolutely agree that teams shouldn't reach for QBs in the first round. I saw a mock draft recently that had five going in the first round this year, and I think that's insane. It's not going to happen. I do like this draft as a good year for QB-needy teams to pick the BPA in the first round and then take a shot on a boom-or-bust sort of player in the second or third. I just think Bridgewater's the real deal. If Andrew Luck graded as, say, a 95 overall as a prospect, you don't pass on Bridgewater just because he's more like an 89. He's still a great prospect and if you need a quarterback, like the Texans do, you can't pass on him just because he doesn't look as good as Andrew Luck. I mean, he's twice as good as EJ Manuel. I like him a lot more than Bradford, too. Honestly, I think the 2012 class just blew peoples' minds and now a lot of us are comparing prospects to some of the best college QBs we've ever seen play in RGIII, Luck and Russell Wilson. Those guys were dominant college players. Bridgewater isn't quite as breathtaking on the field as those guys, but we have to keep in mind that the speed with which they acclimated to the NFL was truly unprecedented. Same with Cam Newton. Bridgewater's not quite in that class. But where Luck, Griffin and Newton were arguably the most talented players in their respective classes, regardless of position, the fact that Clowney might be a better defensive end than Bridgewater is a quarterback doesn't mean you pass on Bridgewater. I mean, if Clowney is a guy you expect to make the All-Pro team like 5 times, but the hole your team really needs to fill in order to win a Super Bowl is at quarterback, you don't pass on a guy who might "only" be an All-Pro a couple of times.

Quarterback is just too important to pass on a guy who is almost assuredly going to be very good, and potentially great. I like a lot of the talent in this quarterback class, but a lot of it doesn't look very "safe" to me. I think Bridgewater is one of the safest-combined-with-high-upside picks I've seen in a long time. I don't think he's quite as physically gifted as Luck, but I honestly think they're a category of two (as far as the last 5 or so years go) in terms of belonging to an exclusive high floor/high upside category. Newton had the highest ceiling of all (it doesn't really exist), but there were some legitimate concerns. I just don't see legitimate concerns with Bridgewater. When you need a QB as the last piece of your team, you just don't pass on a player who has high marks in everything, physical as well as intangible, that you look for. That's classic over-analysis. That's thinking, "Wouldn't it be cool to have the best defensive ends in the league?" and then suffering through another year of frustration at your quarterbacks' inability to put games away despite having a great defense and a talented young star wideout while your division rival picks Bridgewater and improves their win total by 6 games.
Calub, have you scouted Clowney? I only ask because I think you're underrating him. He not only has the potential to be an all-pro 5x, he has the potential to be a modern day LT. He's that good. Teams would have to scheme away from him to run at J.J. Watt.

And I'd argue, and I think you'd agree, that BW doesn't really have all pro potential. All pro is the best or second best QB in the league - that's Brady/Rodgers/Manning territory. He's good, but he's not that good.

It just goes back to the draft philosophy. Filling needs or taking the truly best player. I absolutely subscribe to the latter, especially when he's a generational talent.

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Yeah agree with the above points, and really I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here. I rate Bridgewater somewhere between the Andrew Luck level and the Sam Bradford level. Sometimes it is hard to quantify what a QB should have because regardless of arm strength, accuracy etc if he doesn't have it between the ears then he won't succeed. People don't like to hear these things when looking at prospects because they want a definitive trait to pin down and say this guy will succeed because of x.

Us on the outside will not know this about Bridgewater. Teams will get more from their interview process with him than any offseason workouts or further film study. By watching him, he has good accuracy, more than enough arm strength and as you said can work in a muddied pocket. If he checks out through their personal evaluations I think he will be the pick. But I don't think he should be the pick because he is the best QB. He should be the pick because he is the top player who can help their team the most.

It is why I tend to have issues with the so-called golden rule of drafting, ie - get a QB if one is available.

This is why the Blaine Gabbert's and Christian Ponder's of the NFL happen. Teams look at the turnaround of the Colts and the success of the Seahawks and assume that all rookie QBs should have that success. Unless you really believe in a guy you shouldn't draft him that high regardless of position.
It's interesting because the idea that the best QBs are the top 10 QBs is definitely valid.

But there's more than one way to build a team. This is also why I vehemently disagree with people saying things like "a great defensive end doesn't make them a SB contender" or "we have Watt, and still won just 2 games!" The idea of taking Clowney is that he'd have such a drastic impact on the defense that it would be much, much better.

The Seahawks, 49ers, Bengals, and Ravens all built a defense and running game, and found a suitable QB to lead the show later than the 15th pick. Hell, even the Broncos drafted Tim Tebow and were able to add a FA QB to lead them now. And I know there's some BS Chiefs ceiling because of Alex Smith, and he CANT lead them to a Super Bowl (BS), but they've got 9 wins with a FA QB too. Even Brees. The Saints didn't draft him. It's not wise to bank on those situations, but they DO happen and if that's what you have to do to create one of the best defensive lines in history, then take a chance and pass on someone who might be Sam Bradford.

Those are the exceptions to some extent, yes, but everyone individual situation should be judged differently. Just because most teams get to the SB with top QB prospects, doesn't mean the Texans should overlook a potential generational DE prospect for a good quarterback prospect.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Yes, I was going to suggest Clowney would be an 8-time All-Pro but that's getting ahead of myself. As far as Bridgewater goes, I guess suggesting he could make a couple All-Pro teams might be a bit much. Drew Brees only has one. I didn't realize that. I'll scale down my hypothetical projection of awards to a handful of Pro Bowls.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Based on history... Clowney... they once passed on two very talented players (bush, young) and came out on top.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Does Clowney's work ethic concern anyone?
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Does Clowney's work ethic concern anyone?
It concerns me. I understand it from his perspective not wanting to risk getting hurt given he had to watch Lattimore from the sidelines last year, but there have been a lot of guys who have gotten to the NFL, got that paycheck and just fell through the floor. See McClain, Rolando; and I'm very worried Clowney is going to go down that road.

On the other hand, I'm concerned that in a couple of years if Bridgewater hasn't become a perennial pro bowler, I'm going to see a post like this....


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Bridgewater is waaaay better than either Vince Young or Matt Leinart was. Vince Young was this wildcard-sort of pick who nobody really knew how to quantify and while Leinart had his fans (Arizona apparently among them), there was a large faction that really didn't buy into him. There really tough to find people who don't like Teddy Bridgewater. He's got good size, good technique, good athleticism, good pocket presence and decision-making, a good arm, and good accuracy. He's just good. He's got no glaring weaknesses and high athleticism, and he comes off as a hard worker and tough player. Neither Vince Young nor Matt Leinart could check off all the boxes like that. At this point, the only real negative statements about Bridgewater are warnings not to let the recent success of some rookies create unreasonable expectations for him. It's just people saying, "Well, he's not as good a prospect as Andrew Luck!" and it's kind of meaningless. He grades incredibly well, and the Texans need a quarterback.

about how Bridgewater was good, but not that transcendent QB prospect you expect to see go #1.


By the way, I'm going to say it right now, I have no idea who the Texans should take #1. None whatsoever. I haven't been following football closely enough the past few years to make that judgment and not just be guessing based on a couple of games, highlight reels and hearsay. But I don't think any team should take a quarterback just to take a quarterback. I think that's how the Oakland Raiders ended up with JaMarcus Russell instead of imo the best receiver prospect ever and I think ignoring that is how the Texans ended up with one of the best defensive ends in the league instead one of two quarterbacks that aren't in the league anymore or a running back that didn't really come into his own until he left the team that drafted him.




P.S. If this is the dumbest thing you've ever read, I apologize in advance.

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Old 12-06-2013, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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I love me some Clowney, but if the Texans feel Bridgewater can be their franchise QB they have to take him. A great QB has a much greater effect than an elite DE. That is just how the NFL works.

A lot of people aren't sold completely on Teddy which is fair, but if they Texans are they should take him.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:16 AM    (permalink
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I don't see a possibility where Clowney is the pick. If the Texans are going to pass on Bridgewater then they need to accept some offer to trade down. There is bound to be someone wanting Teddy with Mariota out and Mettenberger now having a torn ACL. If Hundley returns to school then someone will definitely offer up something and the Texans have to take it rather than selecting Clowney. I am a big Bridgewater fan so I would make him the pick.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:17 AM    (permalink
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Sweet! Had to steel it.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:23 AM    (permalink
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This is getting to the point where I'm actually a little confused by how many people seem to want to think Bridgewater is something other than a really good prospect. Haven't you watched him? He's ******* good. I like him considerably more than I liked RGIII.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:41 AM    (permalink
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People seem to expect a Andrew Luck prospect to draft him high when he was the exception and he has yet to set the NFL alight himself.

I would also take him over Griffin and Bridgewater is no worse than the Ryan, Stafford, Bradford and Newton prospects. Obviously Newton is a freak athlete but as a pure QB Bridgwater was ahead of him at the draft.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:22 AM    (permalink
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Bridgewater isn't an exciting prospect because his real talents only show when you study his game film and see his reads and decision making.

He has a good understanding of defensive coverages and how to attack them. IMO his cerebral, 'football' mind is on par with Luck.

The negatives are the kid is skinny and his arm IMO is only solid, not elite.

I think he's a Chad Pennington level prospect, a guy who would have had a great career if not for injuries robbing him of his already pedestrian arm strength.

Pennington however was one of the smartest QBs to play the game.

Give Pennington better mobility on the move and more zip and arm strength, and I think you have Bridgewater.

The Texans need to resolve their QB situation if possible with their first pick.

JJ Watt doesn't need elite talent next to him for the Texans Dline to be among the best in the NFL. You give him solid passer rushers, 'backers and a decent secondary and the Texans are a top 5-10 unit.

Just my gut, but I think Clowney is being overrated projecting to the NFL.
Elite athlete with special pass rush skills, but I don't he's going to be the kind of player who shocks the NFL.

I see a Peppers type career out of Clowney, a guy whose game never matches his measurables on a consistent basis.

Take the QB Houston.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:38 AM    (permalink
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I think he has a very good arm, not elite like the cutler's and stafford's but it's more than good enough.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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Based on history... Clowney... they once passed on two very talented players (bush, young) and came out on top.
They came out on top of what? Did they get a trophy for taking Williams instead of Bush or Young?
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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It sounds like McNair wants a veteran Head Coach, So it wouldn't surprise me if the Texans go the same route as Kansas City. Maybe they look at Jay Cutler, Kirk Cousins could be an option too via trade. If this was the case, The Texans will most likely draft Clowney or Matthews.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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It sounds like McNair wants a veteran Head Coach, So it wouldn't surprise me if the Texans go the same route as Kansas City. Maybe they look at Jay Cutler, Kirk Cousins could be an option too via trade. If this was the case, The Texans will most likely draft Clowney or Matthews.
Texans already have a all pro LT so can't see Matthews being in play, to me it's either Bridgewater or trade the pick for a ransom and draft someone like Bortles or Barr.

If it's me i'm taking Teddy 10 times out of 10.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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Texans already have a all pro LT so can't see Matthews being in play, to me it's either Bridgewater or trade the pick for a ransom and draft someone like Bortles or Barr.

If it's me i'm taking Teddy 10 times out of 10.
First off the Chiefs were set at LT last year then drafted Fisher first overrall. Don't think they'll go there though.

Their mindset would probably be to go out and get someone like a Jay Cutler or maybe a Ben Roethlisberger rather than draft a rookie and wait on his developement. In order i think it would be:

Draft Clowney along with trade for veteran QB.
Trade the pick.
Draft a rookie QB.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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First off the Chiefs were set at LT last year then drafted Fisher first overrall. Don't think they'll go there though.

Their mindset would probably be to go out and get someone like a Jay Cutler or maybe a Ben Roethlisberger rather than draft a rookie and wait on his developement. In order i think it would be:

Draft Clowney along with trade for veteran QB.
Trade the pick.
Draft a rookie QB.
Duane Brown is already on a new log term contract though and last year was a bad draft at the top.

Personally i would prefer Bridgewater over Cutler and take the chance plus there is no way they can get Roethlisberger without trading their first rounder.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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Sounds like Aaron Curry.
Not at all.

Barr is a much more freakish athlete and a pass rusher, which Curry wasn't.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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The Texans may already have the best defensive end in football in J.J. Watt.

What did it get them? They are still the worst team in the league.

Clowney could be the second coming of Lawrence Taylor or even better but it won't matter if the Texans don't have a quarterback. Get a franchise signal caller and everything else will fall into place. If you don't have one nothing else matters. Don't over-think it Houston.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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They came out on top of what? Did they get a trophy for taking Williams instead of Bush or Young?
No, they got a better, more productive player.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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No, they got a better, more productive player.
Who left the team after his rookie contract was up.

And the Titans and Saints were better teams than Houston during the time Young, Bush and Williams were with those teams.
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