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Old 12-08-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
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Matt Ryan has become a very good QB and the Falcons suck this year.

Therefore teams should never draft a QB over any other position.

Can we stop this argument of "this team didn't have a player at X position, and they are bad, therefore, all must take one."

QB is the most important, but getting an average-above average QB doesn't take priority over every position, especially if you feel you can get a game changer at another spot.

If you think Clowney is an all time great at the position, don't settle for a mediocre QB, take a QB if you think you're getting a top tier, pro bowl type guy.

I hate this mentality of taking a QB just because you need a QB. How about take a QB that you feel is a great prospect, or value?
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Matt Ryan has become a very good QB and the Falcons suck this year.

Therefore teams should never draft a QB over any other position.

Can we stop this argument of "this team didn't have a player at X position, and they are bad, therefore, all must take one."

QB is the most important, but getting an average-above average QB doesn't take priority over every position, especially if you feel you can get a game changer at another spot.

If you think Clowney is an all time great at the position, don't settle for a mediocre QB, take a QB if you think you're getting a top tier, pro bowl type guy.

I hate this mentality of taking a QB just because you need a QB. How about take a QB that you feel is a great prospect, or value?
I'm not sure how many people are trying to say you have to take a mediocre QB over Clowney. If the Texans pick first and don't like the potential of any of the Qbs then they absolutely should take someone else. The argument is that if you don't have a franchise QB and there's a guy that you think can be a franchise Qb then that takes precedence over any other need.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Absolutely, but people make it like taking other players is pointless. JJ Watt is a great example that was cited. The Texans did nothing, even though he's dominant, so maybe the Texans shouldn't have chosen him, or anyone in the draft, and just took QBs with all their draft picks until they hit on one.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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The last few posts are what make this discussion very interesting. Both sides raise good points. Ultimately for me it comes down to how special you think each player would be.

The only opinion I disagree is that it's a no-brainer either way. This is a truly great debate and there's not a simple answer.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
Matt Ryan has become a very good QB and the Falcons suck this year.

Therefore teams should never draft a QB over any other position.

Can we stop this argument of "this team didn't have a player at X position, and they are bad, therefore, all must take one."

QB is the most important, but getting an average-above average QB doesn't take priority over every position, especially if you feel you can get a game changer at another spot.

If you think Clowney is an all time great at the position, don't settle for a mediocre QB, take a QB if you think you're getting a top tier, pro bowl type guy.

I hate this mentality of taking a QB just because you need a QB. How about take a QB that you feel is a great prospect, or value?
The Falcons have won 50+ games since taking Ryan in 2008. They've been the #1 seed in the NFC twice with Ryan. The overall body of work supports the reality of how important QBs are.

I hate the mentality of taking a freak athlete who won't help you win games because you don't have a QB.

Every year there are fans who are afraid of QBs. That was the mentality of fans who thought the Lions should take Curry over Stafford. That was the mentality of people who thought the Falcons were better off with Glen Dorsey than Matt Ryan.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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So no one helps you win games except QBs? Matt Ryan looks pretty damn loserific when all of his freak athletes that don't help win are playing poorly, or hurt.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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So no one helps you win games except QBs? Matt Ryan looks pretty damn loserific when all of his freak athletes that don't help win are playing poorly, or hurt.
Like you said "All those freak athletes". Not one. We're only talking about one player here. And QB is the most important single player. If the choice with the #1 pick was QB or multiple freak athletes, I'd be for taking multiple freak athletes all day. The Texans only get to take one player with the #1 pick.

And the Texans are even more loserific despite having guys like JJ Watt and Andre Johnson.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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It isn't like the choices are Geno Smith or Clowney. Bridgewater is a much higher prospect than Smith ever was. You are choosing between possible franchise qb vs DE. Not to mention a DE that doesn't even fit into the Texans scheme what so ever. In my opinion, the Texans take Bridgewater or trade down. I would rather the Texans trade down, get a lot of picks, and get a guy like Matthews/Barr/Watkins/Lewan/Mosley than just taking Clowney #1 overall. It was a little easier for the Texans to take Mario when they had a young qb that they still wanted to give another chance to, Reggie isn't a ZBS runner, and they had no one up front that was any good on their defense when they were switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3. Why even risk wondering if JJ is such a freak that he could be a 4-3 DE when he fits perfectly in the scheme they have and you have a guy like Barr that would translate much better into that scheme?
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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So no one helps you win games except QBs? Matt Ryan looks pretty damn loserific when all of his freak athletes that don't help win are playing poorly, or hurt.
Matt Ryan has been a very good QB since he took over as a rookie. The Falcons have neglected addressing the run game for a few years now and it finally caught up with them. There is no balance on that offense.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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Just ask Cleveland how much difference a good QB makes... ugh...

It's Bridgewater. Period.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Sign Mark Sanchez.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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Just ask Cleveland how much difference a good QB makes... ugh...

It's Bridgewater. Period.
Or ask KC...
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:22 AM    (permalink
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Or ask KC...
Alex Smith has made a huge difference, and not only from a not-turning-the-ball over category, but in leadership intangibles as well. That said, I think if Romeo Crennel and Scott Pioli were still running the Chiefs and acquired Smith, I don't think it would have made as much of an impact as it has.

The atmosphere in the Front Office was toxic and the schemes employed by the coaching staff were stale. Bringing Dorsey, Reid and Sutton in has completely changed the culture.

I'm not sure what significance that would have on the Houston and Atlanta situations, but thought I'd point it out.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:01 AM    (permalink
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I really don't get the "they have JJ Watt already and they aren't very good, what would Clowney do to improve" sentiments.

Forget what happened in yesterday's game for this hypothetical scenario;

The Pats have Rob Gronkowski at TE. They haven't won a Superbowl with Gronk so if Jimmy Graham somehow became available it wouldn't make sense to go for him because they already have Gronk???

You win a Superbowl by having the best players. Yes QB trumps everything but not if the QB is only going to be above average and another player is going to be a transcendent talent.

If the Texans take Clowney and he turns out to be as good as advertised then teams can't scheme against JJ Watt as easily as they do. By adding Clowney you make the best defensive player in the game even better.

It's a nice narrative to say that you need a QB to win the Superbowl, but really, how many elite QBs win the Superbowl? Surely the Superbowl should have been dominated by Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and Brees over the last decade? Yet they have "only" added 50% of the Superbowls in that time. My point is, yes a top QB is desirable for all teams but there is more than one way to win a Superbowl. The Giants won with a suffocating defense and Eli making the big play when needed.

The Seahawks look one of the favorites for the Superbowl this year and Russell Wilson is a damn good QB. But how many people would take him over Aaron Rodgers? Now, how many people would take the other 52 Seahawks over the other 52 Packers?

Tom Brady has played his best football since he last won a Superbowl but the team wasn't as good.

Unless you are getting a potential great QB (which Bridgewater may well be) then I don't think it is as simple as to say "pick the QB because you don't have one". You pick the guy who will best help your team. Someone has already said it, but you think the Raiders would like a mulligan on that Jamarcus Russell pick over Megatron?
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Two realities come into play in the draft, certainly talent counts for a lot but when it comes to QB's, GM's know their days are numbered if they cannot secure a franchise QB even if he is a QB like Ryan who will generally give you a lot of wins and make you a consistent contending team, but may not be good enough to win a SB on his own like the great ones can.
Bridgewater will be the 1st player picked if he gets a top 5 rating from the GM even if Clowney is rated @1. Clowney cannot guarantee that his presence will allow the GM to keep his job but if Bridgewater is just another Ryan, the GM will keep his job for many, many years and if he turns out to be better than that, then it's a home run for Houston if they are picking #1 overall.
The other factor that comes into play in the draft is salary cap structure, all the great team end up paying their QB's top $$$, to accomplish this, they have to pay other positions accordingly and cannot put too much money into other positions beyond what is normal for a successful team. If they draft Clowney, within 3 or 4 years, their team salary structure will be out of line and to find the money to pay a top QB will be practically impossible without gutting the rest of the team.
Besides all that, I strongly believe Houston is a solid QB away from being a serious SB contender, so why in the world would they draft another position unless they absolutely hate every QB in the draft which I really doubt. Everything but a QB is in place for this team to be solid and a dangerous SB contender. Every GM in pro football knows, that without a franchise QB, you are going nowhere and won't hold your job for very long. Anybody who believes that GM's don't take that into account on draft day are being naive.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Teddy will and has to be the pick.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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If the texans have the #1 pick they have to go QB its pretty simple this is assuming they have a similar grade on Bridgewater and Clowney
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Sign Mark Sanchez.
he said "good" QB. :D
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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I really don't get the "they have JJ Watt already and they aren't very good, what would Clowney do to improve" sentiments.

Forget what happened in yesterday's game for this hypothetical scenario;

The Pats have Rob Gronkowski at TE. They haven't won a Superbowl with Gronk so if Jimmy Graham somehow became available it wouldn't make sense to go for him because they already have Gronk???

You win a Superbowl by having the best players. Yes QB trumps everything but not if the QB is only going to be above average and another player is going to be a transcendent talent.

If the Texans take Clowney and he turns out to be as good as advertised then teams can't scheme against JJ Watt as easily as they do. By adding Clowney you make the best defensive player in the game even better.

It's a nice narrative to say that you need a QB to win the Superbowl, but really, how many elite QBs win the Superbowl? Surely the Superbowl should have been dominated by Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and Brees over the last decade? Yet they have "only" added 50% of the Superbowls in that time. My point is, yes a top QB is desirable for all teams but there is more than one way to win a Superbowl. The Giants won with a suffocating defense and Eli making the big play when needed.

The Seahawks look one of the favorites for the Superbowl this year and Russell Wilson is a damn good QB. But how many people would take him over Aaron Rodgers? Now, how many people would take the other 52 Seahawks over the other 52 Packers?

Tom Brady has played his best football since he last won a Superbowl but the team wasn't as good.

Unless you are getting a potential great QB (which Bridgewater may well be) then I don't think it is as simple as to say "pick the QB because you don't have one". You pick the guy who will best help your team. Someone has already said it, but you think the Raiders would like a mulligan on that Jamarcus Russell pick over Megatron?
You're going backwards in this discussion. We've already said that if you don't believe that Bridgewater or any other QB prospect can be a franchise Qb then you can pass on them to take your top rated player.

Your argument about the Pats going after Jimmy Graham doesn't really fit as they aren't giving up anything to get him in that scenario. In actuality the Texans would be passing up a possible franchise Qb for a top rated DE.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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It's not just that a top QB helps you win Super Bowls, but they help you stay consistently competitive. Take Brady for example, he hasn't won a Super Bowl in years, but the Pats are competitive every year, despite losing so many good players and wasting a fair share of Draft picks. Teams can have good seasons without a top QB, but it's hard to stay competitive season after season that way.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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If there was an actual franchise QB out there he would be the easy pick. There isn't a franchise QB in this Draft so go with Clowney and instantly have the best set of DE's in the league. Look for a solid QB in Round 2 or 3 and go from there.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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It's obvious they hire Sumlin and draft Johnny Football.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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If there was an actual franchise QB out there he would be the easy pick. There isn't a franchise QB in this Draft so go with Clowney and instantly have the best set of DE's in the league. Look for a solid QB in Round 2 or 3 and go from there.
People say this every year. They pretend they have a crystal ball that tells them there's no franchise QB in a draft and that a team that needs a QB should wait to get a lesser QB prospect in the second or third round. Most franchise QBs come from the first round. Teams are better off getting the best QB prospect they can get in the first and getting other positions in the following rounds. There will be some good DEs available in the second and third round.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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People say this every year. They pretend they have a crystal ball that tells them there's no franchise QB in a draft and that a team that needs a QB should wait to get a lesser QB prospect in the second or third round. Most franchise QBs come from the first round. Teams are better off getting the best QB prospect they can get in the first and getting other positions in the following rounds. There will be some good DEs available in the second and third round.
And some years there are franchise QBs available, other years (like 2012/13) there were none available. Bridgewater is good, but if you need him to be a franchise QB you'll be drafting another QB within 3 years.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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If there was an actual franchise QB out there he would be the easy pick. There isn't a franchise QB in this Draft so go with Clowney and instantly have the best set of DE's in the league. Look for a solid QB in Round 2 or 3 and go from there.
You take Teddy 10 times out of 10. He has shown enough to warrant the number 1 pick and will have as big of an impact as Clowney would for that franchise, if not more.

I MIGHT entertain it if the Texans move to a 4-3, but I kinda doubt they will.

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It's obvious they hire Sumlin and draft Johnny Football.
Sumlin is hoping for JFF to go to the pros. He hates the headache that comes with him.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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