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View Poll Results: Who SHOULD win DPOY?
Robert Quinn 14 28.57%
Robert Mathis 9 18.37%
Richard Sherman 3 6.12%
Earl Thomas III 1 2.04%
Luke Kuechly 12 24.49%
Lavonte David 3 6.12%
Karlos Dansby 3 6.12%
Vontaze Burfict 1 2.04%
NaVorro Bowman 0 0%
Other (who?) 3 6.12%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
niel89
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I went Mathis. He is playing great football and has made legit game changing plays like his sack fumble on Manning.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:38 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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Yeah, I'd say so. An elite defensive end is more important than an elite ILB, so if I'm going to give the award to one or the other I'd give it to the DE.

...why? If you have two players who have played at (hypothetically) the same level, and one player has a bigger impact on the game due to the position he plays, why would you give it to the other player? That seems arbitrary.

It's not 'simply' due to his position; it's that when you watch the two of them play, Quinn disrupts more plays by himself.
Because again, Player of the Year awards are not Most Valuable Player awards. It is not a value award, it is a quality award. POY awards should simply go to the best player on that side of the ball, and position has little to do with how good a player actually is.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I would vote for Sherman

I think Kuechly will win, although he's only been marginally better than Thomas Davis (not that Davis isn't having a fantastic year).
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Because again, Player of the Year awards are not Most Valuable Player awards. It is not a value award, it is a quality award. POY awards should simply go to the best player on that side of the ball, and position has little to do with how good a player actually is.
It hasn't been Kuechly.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Because again, Player of the Year awards are not Most Valuable Player awards. It is not a value award, it is a quality award. POY awards should simply go to the best player on that side of the ball, and position has little to do with how good a player actually is.
I don't know, man, I think your homer is showing. I think you're trying to define the award in a way that makes Keuchly the best candidate. To just say it another, super-simple way - Quinn has impressed me more than anyone else. He's a dominating player. The amount of individual attention he commanded from opposing teams was huge.

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, man, I think your homer is showing. I think you're trying to define the award in a way that makes Keuchly the best candidate. To just say it another, super-simple way - Quinn has impressed me more.
How does saying the Defensive Player of the Year should go to best the best defensive player this year give Kuechly an advantage? I'd love to hear that explanation. I've already stated I have no problem with anyone believing Quinn or anyone else should win the DPOY, so as long as its because they believe that player is the actual defensive player, not simply the best player at the most important position. Again, this isn't the MVP award. So easily jumping to "yeah, well, you're a homer!" is a really lazy way to debate anything.

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It hasn't been Kuechly.
Uh, OK?
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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I voted Quinn, but it'll be Luke.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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How does saying the Defensive Player of the Year should go to best the best defensive player this year give Kuechly an advantage? I'd love to hear that explanation. I've already stated I have no problem with anyone believing Quinn or anyone else should win the DPOY, so as long as its because they believe that player is the actual defensive player, not simply the best player at the most important position. Again, this isn't the MVP award. So easily jumping to "yeah, well, you're a homer!" is a really lazy way to debate anything.
I'm not "easily jumping" to anything; I explained through several posts why I thought it should go to Quinn (describing his role on his team as well as they way he impacts the game), and your argument has essentially boiled down to saying "its not a defensive MVP award," which I don't really get. Why shouldn't it be thought about that way? The defensive player of the year should be the player who was most disruptive to opposing offenses. I think Keuchly's had a really nice season, but I don't think he's as disruptive as Robert Quinn. I don't think he has as big of an impact on games as Robert Quinn. It seems like the essence of your argument is that you're suggesting that Keuchly would receive a very high grade on his plays, and you think that over the course of the season he is the highest-graded defensive player in the NFL. For one thing, there is not really a way to objectively determine that, and for another, again - I think Quinn was a more singularly disruptive force. Part of that is due to the position he plays, yes - but I'm clearly not saying it has to go to a defensive end instead of an inside linebacker as a rule.

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Old 12-31-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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I picked Dansby, he was a great all around. It's pretty impressive that he led his team in interceptions. I would probably go Sherman or Mathis next. And then maybe Lavonte David. What Sherman does all season and his consistency is very impressive.

On another note, I think tackles is an overrated stat and not the best way to judge a player.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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I think tackles is an overrated stat and not the best way to judge a player.
I am very much in agreement.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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I'm not "easily jumping" to anything; I explained through several posts why I thought it should go to Quinn (describing his role on his team as well as they way he impacts the game), and your argument has essentially boiled down to saying "its not a defensive MVP award," which I don't really get. Why shouldn't it be thought about that way? The defensive player of the year should be the player who was most disruptive to opposing offenses. I think Keuchly's had a really nice season, but I don't think he's as disruptive as Robert Quinn. I don't think he has as big of an impact on games as Robert Quinn. It seems like the essence of your argument is that you're suggesting that Keuchly would receive a very high grade on his plays, and you think that over the course of the season he is the highest-graded player in the NFL. For one thing, there is not really a way to objectively determine that, and for another, again - I think Quinn was a more singularly disruptive force. Part of that is due to the position he plays, yes - but I'm clearly not saying it has to go to a defensive end instead of an inside linebacker as a rule.
If you haven't noticed, I haven't mentioned Kuechly at all outside of the first post, which was before this debate even began. You're the one who continues to bring him up, you're the one continuing to portray this as Quinn vs. Kuechly, based on pure assumption that that must be what I am trying to argue. You're arguing against arguments I'm not making, and consequently trying to portray me as a homer. So please, stop bringing up Kuechly and acting as if he's the central focus of my argument.

My argument is against your reasoning, not your selection. Kuechly has nothing to do with it, regardless of how many times you try to tie into my arguments. If you think the DPOY should basically be DMVP, so be it, but I see a clear distinction. MVP should basically be what you're describing DPOY as, the player who was most important for his team. POY should be something completely different, and it should go to simply the best player. Surrounding talent or position importance don't factor into how good a player is, and therefore shouldn't be considered as determining factors when awarding POY.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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You seemed to be arguing for Keuchly and against Quinn. If you weren't, I've got no idea what you're arguing for. I've said repeatedly that the reason I voted for Quinn is that he was the most impressive defensive player I watched, and it's that simple. I don't know why it's been so hard for you to see that I'm talking about quality, too. I just think part of what constitutes a quality performance is context - the rest of the team, and how much the team relies on said player. We can disagree. I'm not really interested in continuing this indefinitely.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
You seemed to be arguing for Keuchly and against Quinn. If you weren't, I've got no idea what you're arguing for. I've said repeatedly that the reason I voted for Quinn is that he was the most impressive defensive player I watched, and it's that simple. I don't know why it's been so hard for you to see that I'm talking about quality, too. I just think part of what constitutes a quality performance is context - the rest of the team, and how much the team relies on said player. We can disagree. I'm not really interested in continuing this indefinitely.
It's remarkably obvious;

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I think DPOY should go to simply best defensive player regardless of position, not the best player at the most impactful position (MVP != POY).
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
POY awards should simply go to the best player on that side of the ball, and position has little to do with how good a player actually is.
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
I've already stated I have no problem with anyone believing Quinn or anyone else should win the DPOY, so as long as its because they believe that player is the actual defensive player, not simply the best player at the most important position. Again, this isn't the MVP award.
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POY should be something completely different, and it should go to simply the best player. Surrounding talent or position importance don't factor into how good a player is, and therefore shouldn't be considered as determining factors when awarding POY.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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You're seriously not reading my posts the way I'm intending them. Throughout this exchange I've said that Quinn is virtually unblockable. The Keuchly vs. Quinn angle was more about the fact that Keuchly doesn't have to deal with blockers as much since his linemen are so good. I think a player that is commanding double-teams is more valuable, and I think a player who is commanding double-teams and beating them is about as good a defensive player as you can ask for. That's my main point.

So forget it being Keuchly vs. Quinn as a positional debate; that was never my point. The positional aspect, in my mind, was more about the fact that Quinn has been excellent (like Keuchly) but doing things that are typically considered harder. You're really stuck on thinking about this as a sort of Madden-rating type thing where you think the DPOY should just go to the 99-rated (best) player, or whatever.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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You're seriously not reading my posts the way I'm intending them. Throughout this exchange I've said that Quinn is virtually unblockable. The Keuchly vs. Quinn angle was more about the fact that Keuchly doesn't have to deal with blockers as much since his linemen are so good. I think a player that is commanding double-teams is more valuable, and I think a player who is commanding double-teams and beating them is about as good a defensive player as you can ask for. That's my main point.

So forget it being Keuchly vs. Quinn as a positional debate; that was never my point. The positional aspect, in my mind, was more about the fact that Quinn has been excellent (like Keuchly) but doing things that are typically considered harder. You're really stuck on thinking about this as a sort of Madden-rating type thing where you think the DPOY should just go to the 99-rated (best) player, or whatever.
Yes, I am "stuck" on thinking it should go to the best overall defensive player, just as you're "stuck" on considering the award a secondary MVP. Regarding my interpretation of your arguments, when you say this;

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An elite defensive end is more important than an elite ILB, so if I'm going to give the award to one or the other I'd give it to the DE.
you are clearly deciding award worthiness based upon the importance of each player's position, not simply the difficulty of each player's position, as you are now arguing. If you want to claim that Quinn's dominance is why you picked him, fine, but don't act as if you did not clearly claim that the importance of Quinn's position, in addition to his dominance, was a factor.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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you are clearly deciding award worthiness based upon the importance of each player's position,
in part, but not entirely

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not simply the difficulty of each player's position,
The importance and the difficulty are related. I think Quinn's is more important to begin with, and additionally, their individual (team) circumstances made Quinn's (more important) role more difficult. And he was still as good as you could have asked for.

Quote:
If you want to claim that Quinn's dominance is why you picked him, fine, but don't act as if you did not clearly claim that the importance of Quinn's position, in addition to his dominance, was a factor.
I don't think I've denied this. I've denied that I simply prefer defensive ends to inside linebackers as candidates for the award as a rule; I'm not just going to pick the best defensive end over the best middle linebacker. However, if there is a defensive end who is on the same level as a middle linebacker, why wouldn't I choose the player who plays the position which has the higher impact on the game? I've said that, this year, I think Quinn did the most damage out of all defensive players. Part of that (in regards to Keuchly, and other players like Sherman and Thomas) is that playing with other top-level defensive players makes things easier for them. In effect, I have Keuchly, Quinn, Thomas, Sherman and others all in an "elite" tier where I basically consider them to play as well as you can ask for at their respective positions. So, since they're basically all "A+" players to me, I look at their circumstances and cast my (non-official, inconsequential) vote towards the player who I think made the biggest individual impact. Keuchly can be a "99" defensive player but have less impact plays than another "99" player because he has other teammates who can make them. So as an individual award, I am explaining how I would break a tie between two elite players - I would look at who did the most, and I think that's Quinn.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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Should be Watt. If he's not on there because of the sack number, then people really need to stop looking at that stupid stat.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
Should be Watt. If he's not on there because of the sack number, then people really need to stop looking at that stupid stat.
I understand that he won't actually win the award, but since the poll is who you think "should" win, I don't understand why he's not on it. Vontaze Burfict and Karlos Dansby had nice seasons, but were nowhere near as dominant as Watt was.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Nah, but seriously, all of these guys are deserving.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:16 AM    (permalink
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The homer in me made me vote for Mathis, and tbh I do think he has had a fantastic season, the Colts only had 42 sacks total, and 19.5 of those were Mathis, that's incredible. Other than Jerrell Freeman (who has another awesome season) no one else has stood out every week on that Colts D.

I think however that it will be Kuechly
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:38 AM    (permalink
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Give it to the white guy.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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edit: nevermind.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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I honestly don't even get the fact that it might be Kuechly. He's not even been their top defender this year (see: Hardy), and they have a host of guys who are about on his level, and maybe slightly better or worse (Davis, Charles Johnson, Star).
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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Watt is still the most dominant defender in the NFL. It should be his.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Watt is still the most dominant defender in the NFL. It should be his.
This is true.
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