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Old 02-13-2014, 04:33 PM    (permalink
gpngc
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Revisionist historians will deny it, but people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards.

"Panthers take Patrick Petersonz! Best player teh Draft!!!"

But people have conveniently forgotten about that one because it doesn't fit the annual "gotta take teh bestest player" arguments.
The oversimplification is the problem. There's no right answer that will ALWAYS be the right answer.

For that year, Cam Newton was absolutely the best player in the draft, too. So that's not even a good example. And he was a better prospect than any of these QBs.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Revisionist historians will deny it
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
For that year, Cam Newton was absolutely the best player in the draft, too.
Like I said.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Revisionist historians will deny it, but people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards.

"Panthers take Patrick Petersonz! Best player teh Draft!!!"
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46779


Yes. Claiming far and wide. All the claims were Patrick Peterson.

Last edited by Crickett : 02-13-2014 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Not me.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56535

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45951

EDIT: I'm also in the above poll voting for Cam at No. 1...
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post

I didn't actually like Cam Newton as a prospect, but even I knew he was going first overall.

Edit: It's funny because 2011 wasn't so long ago that the mock drafts are off the site. You can go back rather easily and see how many people had Cam going #1 vs. how many people had Peterson in the mock draft forum.

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Old 02-13-2014, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
Revisionist historians will deny it, but people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards.

"Panthers take Patrick Petersonz! Best player teh Draft!!!"

But people have conveniently forgotten about that one because it doesn't fit the annual "gotta take teh bestest player" arguments.
You have to stick to your evaluations. I had a mid first grade on Newton. Green was tops on my board. That doesn't mean I was wrong either, and in fact the Bengals have gone to the playoffs every season with AJ. If Luck had come out, he would have easily been tops on my board and I still would have been right. You can bring up Newton, I can bring up Russell. If you don't believe in a player and you were wrong, it doesn't mean you're always going to be wrong.

According to my evaluation, and factoring in positional value and need, Bridgewater should go #1. Who knows what will happen at 2 but after that I'm taking Clowney for Jacksonville because the only real franchise QB on my board is gone and an elite talent is staring me in the face.
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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I don't really get your point. I was labeled as a revisionist historian for my post when in reality I had Cam Newton as the top prospect in the draft that year.

The generalizations are just so pointless.

"Well last year people said this about this QB and THIS happened." Means absolutely nothing about this years crop of players. The fact is that Manziel, BW, Bortles, and Clowney have never been involved in any other draft class. Which is why the only smart way to deal with those four players is to evaluate them in the context of this draft class/FA market. Not to point out "well one time people (who is people?) said Cam shouldn't go 1 so that means BW should go 1 this year." It's ridiculous logic.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm not talking one person's opinion or one poll. Many fans and analysts thought Cam was a reach at the time.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
I'm not talking one person's opinion or one poll. Many fans and analysts thought Cam was a reach at the time.
I looked for mock drafts that didn't have Cam Newton #1 from 'outlets'. All I really found as far as not Cam Newton going #1 was bleacher report. And more bleacher report.

And while there were plenty of people that didn't think Cam would or should go #1, the general consensus was that he was.

Now, I could be wrong about this, but as far as I recall, you can take that statement I just made and make it about almost any top pick in a draft. The exceptions I can recall are


Carson Palmer
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck

While Eli was the consensus top pick, because it was no secret that the Chargers were in love with Phillip Rivers, some people thought he would go #1.

While Aaron Rodgers fell to the mid 20's, plenty of people thought he should be the #1 overall pick.

Remember the best running back prospect of all time?

Remember the best wide receiver prospect of all time? (not sarcasm this time)

And so on and so forth.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
I looked for mock drafts that didn't have Cam Newton #1 from 'outlets'. All I really found as far as not Cam Newton going #1 was bleacher report. And more bleacher report.

And while there were plenty of people that didn't think Cam would or should go #1, the general consensus was that he was.

Now, I could be wrong about this, but as far as I recall, you can take that statement I just made and make it about almost any top pick in a draft. The exceptions I can recall are


Carson Palmer
Matt Stafford
Andrew Luck

While Eli was the consensus top pick, because it was no secret that the Chargers were in love with Phillip Rivers, some people thought he would go #1.

While Aaron Rodgers fell to the mid 20's, plenty of people thought he should be the #1 overall pick.

Remember the best running back prospect of all time?

Remember the best wide receiver prospect of all time? (not sarcasm this time)

And so on and so forth.
Isn't this his point though? He's saying that the same people who are claiming that this year's QBs are being pushed up boards said that Cam Newton was being pushed up boards. People are talking about these QBs not being worth taking in the top 10 because of some of their weaknesses and acting like previous top 10 QB prospects didn't have questions about them as well. Maybe I missed something but I think that's what he's trying to say.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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I think Manziel is close to Newton as a prospect. Manziel has much better instincts and accuracy than Newton did. He has a much better understanding of the position than Newton did coming out of Auburn. Newton, though, is was just so physically talented that as long as he stayed/stays healthy and didn't implode mentally, he'd be a very good QB (at the least). I had him as the #1 player in that draft.

But as great as Von Miller, Aldon Smith, A. J. Green, and Patrick Peterson (could just list the first half of the first round - minus the other QB's) were, I don't think they were on Clowney's level as prospects.

So as much as I'd like to say that Houston should draft Manziel, I would go with Clowney.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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I looked for mock drafts that didn't have Cam Newton #1 from 'outlets'.
Mock Drafts reflect predictions, not who people believe are the right players for the teams to draft.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Isn't this his point though? He's saying that the same people who are claiming that this year's QBs are being pushed up boards said that Cam Newton was being pushed up boards. People are talking about these QBs not being worth taking in the top 10 because of some of their weaknesses and acting like previous top 10 QB prospects didn't have questions about them as well. Maybe I missed something but I think that's what he's trying to say.

Having a few doubters is not the same thing as claiming it was a widespread belief that Cam was not worth the first overall pick. What I was saying, there's almost always going to be someone who doesn't agree with the consensus #1, it doesn't make it a "widely held belief".


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Mock Drafts reflect predictions, not who people believe are the right players for the teams to draft.

And yet you claimed that people thought Panthers were going to draft Peterson.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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Nope, I clearly said "people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards".
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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Sometimes you do. Or do you think Tebow was the first time that happened?
That proves my point even more, I think. How well did "Sanchize" work out?
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Nope, I clearly said "people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards".
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Revisionist historians will deny it, but people widely claimed Cam Newton was being pushed up boards.

"Panthers take Patrick Petersonz! Best player teh Draft!!!"
Crystal. 10 chars.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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The Panthers FO made their intent pretty clear that they were after Cam but he was generally considered the 15th - 20th best player in the lead up. Some dumb analysts had Gabbert as the #1 QB, early projections had the Panthers taking everyone from Nick Fairley to DaQuan Bowers...
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Crystal. 10 chars.
Crystal Gayle? Crystal chandelier?
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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I remember being extremely conflicted between Cam and Blaine Gabbert at the time. I didn't like either prospect, but knew the Carolina was looking hard at QB. I even picked Gabbert with Carolina in one of the NFL Mock Drafts we do. I also did one where I wound up taking Cam with Carolina. I ultimately remember hoping for Nick Fairley (initally) and then Marcel Dareus (after the Combine). It worked out great in real life, but I remember being extremely meh about it on Draft Day.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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I think Manziel is close to Newton as a prospect. Manziel has much better instincts and accuracy than Newton did. He has a much better understanding of the position than Newton did coming out of Auburn. Newton, though, is was just so physically talented that as long as he stayed/stays healthy and didn't implode mentally, he'd be a very good QB (at the least). I had him as the #1 player in that draft.

But as great as Von Miller, Aldon Smith, A. J. Green, and Patrick Peterson (could just list the first half of the first round - minus the other QB's) were, I don't think they were on Clowney's level as prospects.

So as much as I'd like to say that Houston should draft Manziel, I would go with Clowney.
I don't agree with a single point made in this post.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with a single point made in this post.
Cool dude. Noted.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MikeTheDudeV2 View Post
I remember being extremely conflicted between Cam and Blaine Gabbert at the time. I didn't like either prospect, but knew the Carolina was looking hard at QB. I even picked Gabbert with Carolina in one of the NFL Mock Drafts we do. I also did one where I wound up taking Cam with Carolina. I ultimately remember hoping for Nick Fairley (initally) and then Marcel Dareus (after the Combine). It worked out great in real life, but I remember being extremely meh about it on Draft Day.
I was hoping for Dareus as well. When we took Cam, I was all aboard the Suck for Luck Campaign 2.0. I ate my crow very quickly on that one.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:20 PM    (permalink
E_Bird
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I was hoping for Dareus as well. When we took Cam, I was all aboard the Suck for Luck Campaign 2.0. I ate my crow very quickly on that one.
I'd sure love to be wrong about Tannehill in that way.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:31 PM    (permalink
worldtheofend
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I don't agree with a single point made in this post.
You will have to excuse him, he makes some seriously insane posts.

The only Manziel is even close to Newton as a prospect is if he is 6'5 250lbs shredded with a howitzer for an arm (all while being able to run like he does no)

Any comparison of Manziel to Cam is utterly ridiculous
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:32 PM    (permalink
worldtheofend
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I was hoping for Dareus as well. When we took Cam, I was all aboard the Suck for Luck Campaign 2.0. I ate my crow very quickly on that one.
Tsk tsk tsk, as an Auburn fan I knew you were getting a machine.

Cam (based on pure physical abilities and measurables) was a once in generation prospect.
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