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Old 02-20-2014, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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I think you mean in no way not in know way. Anywho Bortles is bigger, more athletic and has more upside than Bridgewater. So Bridgewater hit the weights these past few months, why wasn't he hitting the weights throughout college? Will this make people question his work ethic in college? Will he be able to keep the weight on during the season? Could be a double edged sword.
I would draft Bridgewater ahead of Bortles if he was 5"11, his size means nothing to me i care about what i see on the field.

Your talking to someone who had Luck and Wilson close in 2012. Size especially at QB is not a big deal for me, i believe a QB's upside is from the neck up.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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Yup, just because Teddy seems bigger now isn't necessarily a good thing. It's like guys who play slow but run in the 4.3s. It raises questions about why they didn't do that during the season.

In saying that, there are definitely reasons why people would like Bortles better than Teddy. Some more valid than others. But Bortles has prototypical size and tremendous upside. Right now Teddy is the better player, and IMO prospect, but in the perfect situation Bortles could definitely have the highest upside in this class and the hardest part of the evaluation is projection.

You don't draft a prospect for what he is, it is what he might become. If you feel that Teddy's ceiling is Matt Ryan and Bortles is higher then, if you think you can make Bortles reach his potential you are silly to not take him.

That being said I take Teddy. I think is upside is higher than Ryan's and the chances of him becoming a good NFL player is much better than Bortles. Though I do think Bortles has the higher upside, but whether he reaches it or not is a huge question mark
This is a decent assessment and why the Combine is so important to Bortles. If he does well particularly in the interview, he could jump both Bridgewater and Manziel. Whether people want to accept it or not, these 3 guys are very close and it is probably going to come down to personal preference of each GM.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Someone needs to tell me why bortles being 6"4 or 6"5 means he has more upside, it's not like he has a rocket arm to go with that.

i have seen far too many great 6"2 Qb's to think it's a big deal.

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Old 02-20-2014, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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This is a decent assessment and why the Combine is so important to Bortles. If he does well particularly in the interview, he could jump both Bridgewater and Manziel. Whether people want to accept it or not, these 3 guys are very close and it is probably going to come down to personal preference of each GM.
The problem with your comments is that you're assuming that we're talking about how the NFL teams are looking at these guys but we're actually giving our own personal assessment of them. I can accept that NFL teams might think that these 3 prospects are close but IMO Bridgewater is clearly the #1 QB and I think him and Manziel are far above Bortles. It would be like somebody saying that they hated Blaine Gabbert in 2011 and you saying "You're wrong, he's probably going to be the 3rd QB taken". They're two different arguments.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Someone needs to tell me why bortles being 6"4 or 6"5 means he has more upside, it's not like he has a rocket arm to go with that.
I 100% agree. I was impressed with Bortles initially when I focused on his positives. I still maintain that the guy is very close to Andrew Luck from a physical perspective. However, when you look beyond his size and athleticism he isn't that impressive. His accuracy is streaky, his mechanics need a lot of work, he has a habit of making bad decisions, and his arm strength isn't that impressive. I'd guess that Bridgewater and Manziel both have higher average velocity on their throws. When Bortles' mechanics are sound, which is pretty rare, he can deliver the ball with decent velocity but you can still see his arm strength limitations on deep throws. Like I said, aside from size Bridgewater is better than Bortles in every QB category IMO.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I think you mean in no way not in know way. Anywho Bortles is bigger, more athletic and has more upside than Bridgewater. So Bridgewater hit the weights these past few months, why wasn't he hitting the weights throughout college? Will this make people question his work ethic in college? Will he be able to keep the weight on during the season? Could be a double edged sword.
Did people even consider that Bridgewater didn't run at Louisville by choice, not because he was physically limited??

I remember a similar argument last year questioning Geno Smith's overall athleticism because he CHOSE not to run the ball at WVU, then he busts a 4.5 at the combine.

I've seen Teddy run from sideline to sideline in college looking for WRs deep while dodging DEs and DTs in the backfield.

Teddy wasn't preoccupied with gaining weight in college because in no way did it limit his game.

It's a plus for a prospect to take a criticism heading into the draft and making a deliberate effort to turn it into a strength.

Bortles and Manziel are so much further behind Bridgewater when it comes to making progression reads, hitting timing routes at the top of their drop and footwork in the pocket, I just don't see where Bortles automatically has more upside than Teddy.

Teddy has being doing things for 4 years at Louisville that Manziel and Bortles really haven't been coached to do much at all in college.
Teddy makes full progression reads and does so quickly. The first time Bortles or Manziel tries a full progression read, IMO they're going to take off by the time they get to their 2nd read if their primary isn't open.

It's exactly the same gap there was between Luck and RG3, because of the systems they played in during college.

RG3 is getting there, but it's a process and far from guaranteed.
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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I think people are missing on what usually limits small QBs. Sure, they have more trouble seeing over the line and can have some hiccups with tipped passes, ETC, but the biggest limiter is that most of the smallish, high producing college QB's that flop are usually guys that don't have the arm to excel in the NFL, and got by with smarts and accuracy in college.

If you think a small QB has what it takes mentally and arm wise, I don't see a reason he won't succeed. Sure, all things equal, you want the taller guy, but all things are rarely equal, if little man can gun the ball in, I would be comfortable saying he has high upside.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Did people even consider that Bridgewater didn't run at Louisville by choice, not because he was physically limited??

I remember a similar argument last year questioning Geno Smith's overall athleticism because he CHOSE not to run the ball at WVU, then he busts a 4.5 at the combine.

I've seen Teddy run from sideline to sideline in college looking for WRs deep while dodging DEs and DTs in the backfield.

Teddy wasn't preoccupied with gaining weight in college because in no way did it limit his game.

It's a plus for a prospect to take a criticism heading into the draft and making a deliberate effort to turn it into a strength.

Bortles and Manziel are so much further behind Bridgewater when it comes to making progression reads, hitting timing routes at the top of their drop and footwork in the pocket, I just don't see where Bortles automatically has more upside than Teddy.

Teddy has being doing things for 4 years at Louisville that Manziel and Bortles really haven't been coached to do much at all in college.
Teddy makes full progression reads and does so quickly. The first time Bortles or Manziel tries a full progression read, IMO they're going to take off by the time they get to their 2nd read if their primary isn't open.

It's exactly the same gap there was between Luck and RG3, because of the systems they played in during college.

RG3 is getting there, but it's a process and far from guaranteed.
It would be very interesting if Bridgewater displayed an RG3 level arm and ran 4.5ish time
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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Someone needs to tell me why bortles being 6"4 or 6"5 means he has more upside, it's not like he has a rocket arm to go with that.


Because the Arm-Chair Scouts of America(ACSA) have been breaking down Bridgewater and Manziel for over 16 months, and just really started to dig into Bortles the last 4 months. What that means is that the ACSA have found a few holes in the games' of Manziel and Bridgewater, after the initial gloss of the greatness they showed, wore off. Classic paralysis by analysis. Because the gloss on Bortles has yet to wear off, the ACSA believe some mythical ceiling is therefore higher..... but if they were astute enough to realize the folly.... they'd see the serious holes in Bortles game.


But they don't, and we are where we are.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:12 PM    (permalink
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Good for McCarron. I was very critical of his Sr. Bowl decision, but I like that he'll be throwing.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I think people are missing on what usually limits small QBs. Sure, they have more trouble seeing over the line and can have some hiccups with tipped passes, ETC, but the biggest limiter is that most of the smallish, high producing college QB's that flop are usually guys that don't have the arm to excel in the NFL, and got by with smarts and accuracy in college.

If you think a small QB has what it takes mentally and arm wise, I don't see a reason he won't succeed. Sure, all things equal, you want the taller guy, but all things are rarely equal, if little man can gun the ball in, I would be comfortable saying he has high upside.
It's true. The height argument has some merit, but the truth is that the vast majority of vertically challenged QBs don't have the arm (because think about it - they're just small dudes with less strength) or are runners.

The thing is, guys who lack height simply don't have the other things they need - big hands and a big arm. Why? Because guys who lack height usually don't have big hands or a big arm. When they do, you get Russell Wilson. Yes, there will be concerns with seeing the field and finding passing windows, but I don't think the majority of small QBs fail because of it. I think the majority fail because their lack of height means they don't have the arm or hand size.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Boyd is throwing at the Combine.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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The problem with your comments is that you're assuming that we're talking about how the NFL teams are looking at these guys but we're actually giving our own personal assessment of them. I can accept that NFL teams might think that these 3 prospects are close but IMO Bridgewater is clearly the #1 QB and I think him and Manziel are far above Bortles. It would be like somebody saying that they hated Blaine Gabbert in 2011 and you saying "You're wrong, he's probably going to be the 3rd QB taken". They're two different arguments.
Not quite, Gabbert went #10, Bortles is likely to go #3, so his question marks simply aren't as severe as Gabbert's were. It is going to come down to personal choice among the 3, if a GM loves Bortles makeup he could easily jump the other 2, not saying it's going to happen but in the end, that is how the draft works.
They still have their Combine or Pro Days ahead of them which creates an even playing field, believe me, when 3 guys are projected to go 1, 2, or 3, anything is possible, nothing is fixed in stone at this point in the process. These guys have all being working tirelessly to get prepared, so whose to say how Bortles looks after over a month of training by a pro QB coach.

Do you have the doctor's report on all 3, have you interviewed them? This decision is not finished just yet, and I'm not claiming that Bortles will pass the other 2, just that he isn't out of the discussion just yet.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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Fales is throwing as well if it hasn't been mentioned. A lot of guys competing for those non top 3 QB spots.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Not quite, Gabbert went #10, Bortles is likely to go #3, so his question marks simply aren't as severe as Gabbert's were. It is going to come down to personal choice among the 3, if a GM loves Bortles makeup he could easily jump the other 2, not saying it's going to happen but in the end, that is how the draft works.
They still have their Combine or Pro Days ahead of them which creates an even playing field, believe me, when 3 guys are projected to go 1, 2, or 3, anything is possible, nothing is fixed in stone at this point in the process. These guys have all being working tirelessly to get prepared, so whose to say how Bortles looks after over a month of training by a pro QB coach.

Do you have the doctor's report on all 3, have you interviewed them? This decision is not finished just yet, and I'm not claiming that Bortles will pass the other 2, just that he isn't out of the discussion just yet.
You completely missed the point of my comment.....

Maybe I should come up with a better example. Let's say somebody hated Jamarcus Russell as a prospect and said that in their opinion there were no less than 5 QBs he would rather have in that draft. You correctly assuming that Russell was going #1 overall doesn't change that person's opinion.

Applying that to this year, Bortles going #1 won't have any effect on my feelings that Bridgewater is the superior prospect. We're not debating which order these guys are going to be taken, we're talking about our own personal rankings of them.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:13 AM    (permalink
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You completely missed the point of my comment.....

Maybe I should come up with a better example. Let's say somebody hated Jamarcus Russell as a prospect and said that in their opinion there were no less than 5 QBs he would rather have in that draft. You correctly assuming that Russell was going #1 overall doesn't change that person's opinion.

Applying that to this year, Bortles going #1 won't have any effect on my feelings that Bridgewater is the superior prospect. We're not debating which order these guys are going to be taken, we're talking about our own personal rankings of them.
That's fair, but I tend to order my ranking on what I see in the post season when the playing field is equal and not warped by conference or or the personnel who surrounds them, and I have no solid reports on any of them till they either perform at the Combine or their Pro Days. Right at this moment I also have Bridgewater #1 with Manziel #2 and Bortles #3, but I am prepared to alter my ranking if I'm seeing Bortles jump the other 2. I have no access to interviews or medical reports, so I have no choice but to play close attention to people like Mayock on those matters.

They have all been working out for a month or more under a pro QB coach, don't you want to know the results before you conclude on their potential? I do.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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Not quite, Gabbert went #10, Bortles is likely to go #3, so his question marks simply aren't as severe as Gabbert's were.

You see nothing wrong with this comparison, do you?
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:31 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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You see nothing wrong with this comparison, do you?
By everything I'm hearing, this draft is the best of the last decade, Gabbert went #10 in one of the worst draft years where teams were prepared to take far more risks. So, no I don't see the comparison, IMO, there is a huge difference going top 10 in a weak draft year and going top 5 in a superb draft year.
I believe Bortles intangibles alone put Gabbert to shame, and his upside physically is just as high as Gabberts'.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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So, no I don't see the comparison, IMO, there is a huge difference going top 10 in a weak draft year and going top 5 in a superb draft year.

There's an even huger difference between where many player are "projected" to go and where they're actually drafted. You're comparing where someone is 'likely' to go with where someone 'did' go as though they're the same thing.

Or as I like to call it, the Kellen Winslow Jr.
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Old 02-21-2014, 02:22 AM    (permalink
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Gabbert was/is physically superior to Bortles. Both are big and heavy. Gabber might be a better athlete actually. Gabbert has a clear advantage with his arm. Bortles has a good arm but Gabbert has a great arm. It's attached to a ****** QB but he still had every physical tool you could look for. Gabbert has tremendous upside (physical tools) if he could ever mentally be decent. Gabbert is what you want from the neck down, and that's why team were willing to gamble that they could sort out his game.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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There's an even huger difference between where many player are "projected" to go and where they're actually drafted. You're comparing where someone is 'likely' to go with where someone 'did' go as though they're the same thing.

Or as I like to call it, the Kellen Winslow Jr.
Your argument makes no sense, all we can do at this point in the process, if we are using Gabbert as an example, is project where Bortles will go based on his talent level and compare what that entails. Bortles, of course, still has to have his Combine performance before we are anywhere certain about where he will be picked, that is obviously yet to come. My argument is based on current thinking which of course is just a projection at this point of the process.
It doesn't change the fact that this is one of the best drafts of a decade and Gabbert's draft year was a poor one where teams took far more gambles trying to find talent.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:11 AM    (permalink
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Gabbert was/is physically superior to Bortles. Both are big and heavy. Gabber might be a better athlete actually. Gabbert has a clear advantage with his arm. Bortles has a good arm but Gabbert has a great arm. It's attached to a ****** QB but he still had every physical tool you could look for. Gabbert has tremendous upside (physical tools) if he could ever mentally be decent. Gabbert is what you want from the neck down, and that's why team were willing to gamble that they could sort out his game.
I pretty well agree with everything you say, however, we all know that intangibles are what makes or breaks a QB even if he has the physical tools. I'm currently guessing that all the talk about Bortles being a top 3 selection suggests his intangibles are right at the top of the charts unlike Gabbert's.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:05 AM    (permalink
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It's true. The height argument has some merit, but the truth is that the vast majority of vertically challenged QBs don't have the arm (because think about it - they're just small dudes with less strength) or are runners.

The thing is, guys who lack height simply don't have the other things they need - big hands and a big arm. Why? Because guys who lack height usually don't have big hands or a big arm. When they do, you get Russell Wilson. Yes, there will be concerns with seeing the field and finding passing windows, but I don't think the majority of small QBs fail because of it. I think the majority fail because their lack of height means they don't have the arm or hand size.
Exactly! I can't think of a guy off the top of my head that was small, with a big arm, and failed. I'm sure there are some. Most of the small "winners" are noodle armed.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Exactly! I can't think of a guy off the top of my head that was small, with a big arm, and failed. I'm sure there are some. Most of the small "winners" are noodle armed.
The NFL chooses bigger guys earlier and gives them more chances. Vick has small 8.5 inch hands yet has top shelf arm strength.I know, I know, you're going to talk about fumbles but Vick fumbles because he runs and lacks pocket awareness, not because his hands are 8.5 inches. I think RG3 had one of the highest fumble percentages in his rookie year and it was because he runs too. The fact Vick can throw harder than guys with bigger hands confirms that small hands don't preclude a QB from having top arm strength.

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Old 02-21-2014, 05:33 AM    (permalink
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Yeah there is a difference between Russell Wilson "small" and Kellen Moore "small". In reality Wilson isn't small he's just not tall.

That's the thing with all the bortles stuff, he gets compared to Big Ben but he doesn't have near the arm Roethlisberger has and the steelers have been changing their offense because they don't want him taking those hits.

People just equate height to arm strength, hand size and strength in general. Ryan Tannehill had 9 inch hands iirc and he was on of those "big strapping isotropically size" guys.
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