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Old 03-09-2014, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
I don't really think it's an issue of jump balls, it's the fact that Cam tends to overthrow his receivers numerous times a game. We need someone who can reliably go up and catch those passes, whether its in a traditional jump ball situation (say in the redzone) or just on a regular 1st and 10 pass.
With the catch radius of a school bus, it's really hard to overthrow Kelvin Benjamin (unless you're Erik Manuel).
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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@Scott

How is it even possible Gilbert slips that far? I would think at the least Dallas would select him and convert him into a safety if no one trades up to get him.
Since Scott has not replied, I would like to hear from anyone on the forum does this make any sense to you?
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by shylo3716 View Post
Since Scott has not replied, I would like to hear from anyone on the forum does this make any sense to you?
Dallas has a much bigger need on the Defensive Line. If Jernigan or Donald are there they cannot pass on them. If they are gone and on only that overrated kid from Minnesota is on the board with Gilbert, then roll the dice and go with Gilbert.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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Because scouting is an exaxt science, yes? Our offense is a position to put up points, even without a standout line. Our defense is in position to stop nobody. I would be fine with Robinson but the upside isn't there for Matthews to take him over a defensive playmaker.
That is ridiculous, Matthews would be a top 5 pick in every draft I've ever watched for the last 55 years. His technique is so perfect, half the LT's in the NFL currently, could not match him. His brother taught him well. He's a plug and play LT and will be a superb pass blocker for at least the next 10 years and has the potential to be a future HoFer.

Robinson is a freak of nature, he's also got future HoF written all over him, he's a truly powerful man and a tremendous run blocker but as yet, he isn't close to Matthews as a pass blocker. Not saying he won't be good or eventually, even great as a pass blocker but he has a ways to go.

People have to understand, this draft is sensational for top 10 talent maybe even for top 20 talent, it's way beyond good for the 11th to 20th pick. Even this group would has seriously challenged for top 5 consideration last year.

Atlanta has 2 serious problems, DE and LT, they are going to get a real stud at either position, even Clowney is a possibility depending on how many QB's go top 5. Mack vs Matthews will be a problem for them, just not sure Mack at DE in a 4-3 is his ideal position, Absolutely love him as a rush OLB in a 3-4 but Atlanta will put him at DE where he'll be good but maybe not great.

If you don't think Atlanta doesn't need a LT, your dead wrong, he would add quite a bit to their pass blocking and with their 2 WR's hopefully returning to health, their offense could be elite, and Matthews is no slouch as a run blocker either. You'd be amazed at how much an OLman depends on technique for success over physical talent and Matthews has it in spades.

Some of your comments are questionable, it sounds like you disagree with Atlanta taking Ryan, ask Miami how passing on him worked out when they took Long. Haven't made the playoffs since. And saying a NFL starter since he was drafted makes him a bust(Tyson Jackson) is just ridiculous. He may not be a stud but 3-4 DE's usually aren't and Jackson was drafted in a year where the draft absolutely stunk, just wasn't a lot of talent available in the top 10 worth taking once you got past maybe 1 or 2, so they did the best they could.

Every draft is different, the studs as prospects can # from possibly 1 to as many as 20 but the norm is about 6 or 7 but I've seen drafts this decade that had only 1. So, saying you should only draft potential studs is just not possible in many drafts and teams have to make do with what a draft offers them. Atlanta is fortunate that they picked a great draft year to stink, they are going to get a huge stud no matter who they pick, so I wouldn't be crying over who they might possibly get, Either Mack or Matthews are at least potential HoFers. Will some of these great 20 prospects flop, probably, nothing is an absolute sure thing in any draft, strong or weak, Flops happen.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Moseley is ok, he's a good player but a bit of a luxury pick. Vince Williams filled in admirably last year, and we more often than not play nickel and dime (Where Timmons is solid). We also won't be investing in the oline early this draft, we have all the pieces in place they just need time and consistency. CB, FS, WR, NT and TE are all bigger needs.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Moseley is ok, he's a good player but a bit of a luxury pick. Vince Williams filled in admirably last year, and we more often than not play nickel and dime (Where Timmons is solid). We also won't be investing in the oline early this draft, we have all the pieces in place they just need time and consistency. CB, FS, WR, NT and TE are all bigger needs.
I agree, Pittsburgh has a long list of needs that need to be addressed and they have spent a lot of high picks on the OL. However, from what I have seen, their OL still needs lots of work, so you cannot completely rule it out as a need. They really could go in a # of directions as both sides of the ball have serious problem areas.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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That is ridiculous, Matthews would be a top 5 pick in every draft I've ever watched for the last 55 years. His technique is so perfect, half the LT's in the NFL currently, could not match him. His brother taught him well. He's a plug and play LT and will be a superb pass blocker for at least the next 10 years and has the potential to be a future HoFer.

Robinson is a freak of nature, he's also got future HoF written all over him, he's a truly powerful man and a tremendous run blocker but as yet, he isn't close to Matthews as a pass blocker. Not saying he won't be good or eventually, even great as a pass blocker but he has a ways to go.

People have to understand, this draft is sensational for top 10 talent maybe even for top 20 talent, it's way beyond good for the 11th to 20th pick. Even this group would has seriously challenged for top 5 consideration last year.

Atlanta has 2 serious problems, DE and LT, they are going to get a real stud at either position, even Clowney is a possibility depending on how many QB's go top 5. Mack vs Matthews will be a problem for them, just not sure Mack at DE in a 4-3 is his ideal position, Absolutely love him as a rush OLB in a 3-4 but Atlanta will put him at DE where he'll be good but maybe not great.

If you don't think Atlanta doesn't need a LT, your dead wrong, he would add quite a bit to their pass blocking and with their 2 WR's hopefully returning to health, their offense could be elite, and Matthews is no slouch as a run blocker either. You'd be amazed at how much an OLman depends on technique for success over physical talent and Matthews has it in spades.

Some of your comments are questionable, it sounds like you disagree with Atlanta taking Ryan, ask Miami how passing on him worked out when they took Long. Haven't made the playoffs since. And saying a NFL starter since he was drafted makes him a bust(Tyson Jackson) is just ridiculous. He may not be a stud but 3-4 DE's usually aren't and Jackson was drafted in a year where the draft absolutely stunk, just wasn't a lot of talent available in the top 10 worth taking once you got past maybe 1 or 2, so they did the best they could.

Every draft is different, the studs as prospects can # from possibly 1 to as many as 20 but the norm is about 6 or 7 but I've seen drafts this decade that had only 1. So, saying you should only draft potential studs is just not possible in many drafts and teams have to make do with what a draft offers them. Atlanta is fortunate that they picked a great draft year to stink, they are going to get a huge stud no matter who they pick, so I wouldn't be crying over who they might possibly get, Either Mack or Matthews are at least potential HoFers. Will some of these great 20 prospects flop, probably, nothing is an absolute sure thing in any draft, strong or weak, Flops happen.
I disagree with almost everything in this post but there is no point in arguing. I don't need you attempting to tell me about my team.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
He is a playmaker, something the team lacks. It's not just about sacks, especially for a linebacker. And college production for Mack was outstanding, so putting it off as if he only had one good season is misleading.

Saying Matthews sucks is hyperbole but it's all the same if he isn't the right move. The team needs defense. Passing up a guy like Mack would be reasonable for an elite talent such as Robinson but for Matthews it isn't thw case.
Matthews is an elite talent, don't kid yourself. He's pretty similar to Joe Thomas as a prospect
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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I have Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan all as better prospects than any of the OT's from the 2013 draft class.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Scott,

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Manziel going at #5 instead of Bridgewater. My guess is that you hit on it a little bit with your talk of the energizing Johnny Football, but I'd like to hear more regarding the comparison.

My personal response would be to rip my TV out of the wall and throw it out the window if that happened. I believe Manziel has some high upside and will bring dynamic okay to the NFL right away, but the learning curve for him to bring consistently positive play is going to be very steep. In comparison, Bridgewater is likely the most NFL ready QB in this draft with a high football IQ, ability to read defenses and progress through reads, and the ability to make the right throws at the right time.

For a coaching staff that benched Terrelle Pryor for Matt "Interception" McGloin (!!!!) it seems to make sense that they are looking for a more prototypical QB who makes plays with his arm first, Bridgewater seems to makes more sense.

Also, for a regime that needs to see positive results now, the QB who can come in and play like an NFL QB and consistently make NFL reads and NFL throws seems to make sense. And that would be Bridgewater as well.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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I have Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan all as better prospects than any of the OT's from the 2013 draft class.
I'd put Fisher right in that mix. I thought in games he played that i was able to focus on him he was very good.

No doubt this class is better than last in so many areas. That second tier of tackles with guys like Morgan Moses, Joe Bitonio, Tiny Richardson and Matt Pachan would be talked up a lot more in most other years.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Since Scott has not replied, I would like to hear from anyone on the forum does this make any sense to you?
Dallas would likely have no interest in Gilbert and no they would not try to convert him to safety. They might trade the pick if he was there though.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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I have Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan all as better prospects than any of the OT's from the 2013 draft class.
I think Joeckel and Fisher would go ahead of Lewan, but it would probably come down to team preference. Same for Johnson really. He's more raw than any of these guys, but a team like Philly might have still preferred him.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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I would think Dallas has to go pass rusher, especially if they get rid of Ware. I can't see Dallas going anywhere any time soon.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't high on Fisher and had Lane Johnson as my #1 OT. Cornelius Washington (who I liked) ate Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl. Lewan isn't quite as athletic as Johnson, but he's as athletic as you'd like and more polished.

Robinson, Matthews, Lewan, Johnson, Joeckel, Fisher would equal my order.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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I'd put Fisher right in that mix. I thought in games he played that i was able to focus on him he was very good.

No doubt this class is better than last in so many areas. That second tier of tackles with guys like Morgan Moses, Joe Bitonio, Tiny Richardson and Matt Pachan would be talked up a lot more in most other years.
Assuming he can get healthy (which seems to be a large assumption), I still like Tiny. Probably safest to put him over at RT (again, given his injury concerns). But he's a good player who can play LT in the NFL - just have to question the stability he'd provide at that position. It'll be interesting to see where teams feel comfortable gambling on Tiny.
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Old 03-09-2014, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't high on Fisher and had Lane Johnson as my #1 OT. Cornelius Washington (who I liked) ate Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl. Lewan isn't quite as athletic as Johnson, but he's as athletic as you'd like and more polished.

Robinson, Matthews, Lewan, Johnson, Joeckel, Fisher would equal my order.
OL are at a pretty big disadvantage in the Senior Bowl. They rely on playing as a unit and within a system more than DL do.
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Old 03-09-2014, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't high on Fisher and had Lane Johnson as my #1 OT. Cornelius Washington (who I liked) ate Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl. Lewan isn't quite as athletic as Johnson, but he's as athletic as you'd like and more polished.

Robinson, Matthews, Lewan, Johnson, Joeckel, Fisher would equal my order.
I like this discussion. My order would be Greg Robinson, Jake Matthews, Luke Joeckel, Taylor Lewan, Eric Fisher and last would be Lane Johnson. Definitely like this group of OT's much better than last year. Still not sure how Fisher went #1 overall. And I always preferred Matthews to Joeckel. He held up just as well in pass protection and is a far superior run blocker IMO.

That being said, I'm not shocked by Miami's pick at all. Looks likely at the moment. Just hoping free agency changes that a little bit. Would be nice to go BPA there instead of being pigeonholed into taking an OL there.
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Old 03-09-2014, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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OL are at a pretty big disadvantage in the Senior Bowl. They rely on playing as a unit and within a system more than DL do.
I somehow missed anyone eating Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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I somehow missed anyone eating Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl.
Have to apologize on that one. It was Justin Pugh who struggled against Washington.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I like this discussion. My order would be Greg Robinson, Jake Matthews, Luke Joeckel, Taylor Lewan, Eric Fisher and last would be Lane Johnson. Definitely like this group of OT's much better than last year. Still not sure how Fisher went #1 overall. And I always preferred Matthews to Joeckel. He held up just as well in pass protection and is a far superior run blocker IMO.

That being said, I'm not shocked by Miami's pick at all. Looks likely at the moment. Just hoping free agency changes that a little bit. Would be nice to go BPA there instead of being pigeonholed into taking an OL there.
If Miami doesn't address OT in FA, I think they put themselves in a really bad spot. I don't like Zach Martin at OT, and I think he'd be a reach at 19. Given the strength of the draft, 19 is a great slot - unless you're drafting for need. Jimmie Ward and Ryan Shazier are the two guys I'm currently liking best at 19, but either or both could already be off the board. I'm assuming Donald will also be off the board, so after those two, I'm looking at players like Jernigan, Dennard, and Moncrief. I'd prefer to go D in the 1st, but Moncrief could be too talented to ignore.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I somehow missed anyone eating Fisher's lunch at the Senior Bowl.

So did I, he had a great Senior Bowl or he doesn't go #1 overall.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Have to apologize on that one. It was Justin Pugh who struggled against Washington.
Sorry, missed your new comment before I posted above.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, missed your new comment before I posted above.
No worries. I had that one wrong.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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I like this discussion. My order would be Greg Robinson, Jake Matthews, Luke Joeckel, Taylor Lewan, Eric Fisher and last would be Lane Johnson. Definitely like this group of OT's much better than last year. Still not sure how Fisher went #1 overall. And I always preferred Matthews to Joeckel. He held up just as well in pass protection and is a far superior run blocker IMO.

That being said, I'm not shocked by Miami's pick at all. Looks likely at the moment. Just hoping free agency changes that a little bit. Would be nice to go BPA there instead of being pigeonholed into taking an OL there.
Tough call, the OT's were clearly the best of the talent available last year and I remember that Matthews was ahead of Lewan but behind Fisher and Joeckel in the pre declaring period but a year at starting as a LT might have definitely pushed him higher. Robinson is an absolutely tremendous talent but he was pretty raw in 2012/13, made a great leap forward this year and is right there with the top guys if not ahead. Then Lewan and then Johnson. Has to be the finest 2 year period for LT's maybe ever.
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