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View Poll Results: Which CB do you choose?
Revis Island 16 17.58%
Richard the mouth Sherman 42 46.15%
Patrick Peterson 22 24.18%
Other: Really? Which guy, seriously? 11 12.09%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2014, 06:17 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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As an aside, (I just thought of this), I'm not sure I've ever really heard of one of the league's top corners being derided as a "system corner" as much as I have with Richard Sherman. It just doesn't really happen. Does anyone else notice this? I kind of suspect it has to do with people not liking him personally in addition to having quite a lot of talent around him as well. The next name that comes to mind would have been Ronde Barber, probably, who also played in sort of a unique (for its time) defense with some other great talents around him, but who also did some things from the corner position that hadn't really been done before, and a lot of people think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts on this?

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Old 06-01-2014, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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If you factor in return ability, you could make a case for Peterson. A team with an elite defense could arguably benefit more from a good corner who can add special teams points over an elite cover corner.

But based solely on defensive play? Clearly Sherman. Not even close.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:13 PM    (permalink
ChiFan24
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It took way too long for someone to point out the importance of scheme. All things considered I'll take Haden, but if we're truly factoring in salary, Mono's probably on the right track (not sure about Dez specifically, but I'm blanking on a better alternative early in his rookie contract).
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:39 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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It took way too long for someone to point out the importance of scheme. All things considered I'll take Haden, but if we're truly factoring in salary, Mono's probably on the right track (not sure about Dez specifically, but I'm blanking on a better alternative early in his rookie contract).
Why exactly would you take Haden? I've seen a lot of people suggest that he would be at or near the top of the list, but there is a lot out there to suggest to the contrary. I haven't really seen any evidence to suggest that he deserves to be up there.
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
As an aside, (I just thought of this), I'm not sure I've ever really heard of one of the league's top corners being derided as a "system corner" as much as I have with Richard Sherman. It just doesn't really happen. Does anyone else notice this? I kind of suspect it has to do with people not liking him personally in addition to having quite a lot of talent around him as well. The next name that comes to mind would have been Ronde Barber, probably, who also played in sort of a unique (for its time) defense with some other great talents around him, but who also did some things from the corner position that hadn't really been done before, and a lot of people think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts on this?
I'm not saying that Sherman is a "system" CB. But there's precedent.

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Old 06-01-2014, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
As an aside, (I just thought of this), I'm not sure I've ever really heard of one of the league's top corners being derided as a "system corner" as much as I have with Richard Sherman. It just doesn't really happen. Does anyone else notice this? I kind of suspect it has to do with people not liking him personally in addition to having quite a lot of talent around him as well. The next name that comes to mind would have been Ronde Barber, probably, who also played in sort of a unique (for its time) defense with some other great talents around him, but who also did some things from the corner position that hadn't really been done before, and a lot of people think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Thoughts on this?
I like Sherman, I'll just take Revis' play while shadowing for a defense which lacked consistent safety play or any edge rushers over Sherman's with two top safeties and a great rush. Their yards/snap, etc. ratings are almost identical, but Revis was in a much more difficult situation. If I were making this pick with a long-term focus, I'd go with Sherman or Peterson, but right now Revis is still the best cornerback in the league.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:15 AM    (permalink
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Try and look at it in the way if they were all thrown back into the draft, where each guy would be drafted NOW.

I still put my money that Patrick Peterson goes first, and that was my original point.
Haden probably goes before Sherman too.

Right or wrong, I bet that's correct.
Who goes 3 between Revis and Sherman is the tough call, but based on health and age, I would bet Sherman goes 3rd, Revis 4th. Speedy Sam Shields 5th.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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Peterson would be a better fit for the steelers i think.

But, theres no such thing as a franchise CB, thats dumb
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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Peterson would be a better fit for the steelers i think.

But, theres no such thing as a franchise CB, thats dumb
There absolutely is such a thing as a franchise CB. The positional value argument is one of the dumbest ones that we continually have on this site. Player's values are a function of opponents, complementary pieces, utilization, and influence on the game, not arbitrary positional values. Guys like Revis and Sherman have been the backbone of top ranked defenses, whose success was built around their talents.

Any position can be a franchise type player if given the correct opponents and utilized correctly. It's also why a team like the Cowboys with franchise type talents at the "right" positions can continually suck.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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There absolutely is such a thing as a franchise CB. The positional value argument is one of the dumbest ones that we continually have on this site. Player's values are a function of opponents, complementary pieces, utilization, and influence on the game, not arbitrary positional values. Guys like Revis and Sherman have been the backbone of top ranked defenses, whose success was built around their talents.

Any position can be a franchise type player if given the correct opponents and utilized correctly. It's also why a team like the Cowboys with franchise type talents at the "right" positions can continually suck.
Disagree.

Those CBs are great when you can surround them with a top defense...dump $20 million a year into a CB and we will continue to see them get exposed

Also, I think sherman is the top CB in the game....but i cant see how anyone could argue against Earl Thomas being the most important part of that secondary
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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Technicalities aside, and biases from AZ, Sea, NE, Cle, etc.... if all these guys were "draftable" again, do you not think that more GM's would select Peterson than Sherman?

I'd bet it's something like this:

32 total

15- Peterson
7- Haden
6- Sherman
4- Revis

Peterson is a truly special, rare athlete. He's exactly how you would mold a cornerback. I think Sherman's attitude would turn a few GMs off, plus he doesn't have the same speed, athletic ability as Peterson does.. no CBs do.

There's a reason Peterson was drafted so high and graded so high.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Also peterson can play man and zone, play safety, return kicks.

Generally we see Sherman play press man with a single high safety, which puts him on an island with his man on his side. Very talented player but he is rarely asked to move around or cover for very long with that front 7 which is truly a beautiful thing.

Theres nothing not to like about the scheme pete carrol has built, but there is something to spat at when you are talking paying one of those guys $15 million + a year
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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Technicalities aside, and biases from AZ, Sea, NE, Cle, etc.... if all these guys were "draftable" again, do you not think that more GM's would select Peterson than Sherman?

I'd bet it's something like this:

32 total

15- Peterson
7- Haden
6- Sherman
4- Revis

Peterson is a truly special, rare athlete. He's exactly how you would mold a cornerback. I think Sherman's attitude would turn a few GMs off, plus he doesn't have the same speed, athletic ability as Peterson does.. no CBs do.

There's a reason Peterson was drafted so high and graded so high.
Why would a GM pick the worse player? Makes no sense. It doesn't matter if Peterson is a better athlete, they aren't picking an athletics team.

And what's wrong with Sherman's attitude? He works harder than anyone else, plays with a chip on his shoulder and is confident in his ability. His personality is exactly what you'd look for on a football team.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:40 AM    (permalink
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Disagree.

Those CBs are great when you can surround them with a top defense...dump $20 million a year into a CB and we will continue to see them get exposed

Also, I think sherman is the top CB in the game....but i cant see how anyone could argue against Earl Thomas being the most important part of that secondary
See, for me this is a double edged thing. By surrounding any player with a great defense is a great situation. If you have an all world pass rusher playing with 10 scrubs then the defense will be poor. However, if you add a great DT, 2 play making LBs, a rangy FS and a lockdown CB then the defense will likely be very good.

I can't think of any player who you could say that by adding talent to his supporting cast wouldn't be a better player or help the team make more of an impact.

You could argue that Earl Thomas makes that Seahawks defense what it is, and in this case I would agree. But I don't know who could argue that if you took Sherman away they wouldn't be a worse defense. But, when with the Jets Revis was the guy who made the defense tick. He was the start point for Rex Ryan's schemes and the rest of the players fitted in like they do in Seattle.

Look at that defense from 3 or 4 years ago. Outside of Revis and Cromartie they had nobody you could describe as an upper tier player yet they were possibly the top ranked defense. Really, they had an aging Shaun Ellis, Calvin Pace, an aging Bart Scott, David Harris, an aging Trevor Pryce etc They had some nice role players like DeVito and Pouha but Revis was the guy who made that defense what it was.

I think you absolutely can have franchise CBs and if they are that good then they should be paid like it. However, it is deciding if that is how you want to build your team. You can't pay a franchise QB, franchise pass rusher and a franchise CB all $16m+.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:49 AM    (permalink
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See, for me this is a double edged thing. By surrounding any player with a great defense is a great situation. If you have an all world pass rusher playing with 10 scrubs then the defense will be poor. However, if you add a great DT, 2 play making LBs, a rangy FS and a lockdown CB then the defense will likely be very good.

I can't think of any player who you could say that by adding talent to his supporting cast wouldn't be a better player or help the team make more of an impact.

You could argue that Earl Thomas makes that Seahawks defense what it is, and in this case I would agree. But I don't know who could argue that if you took Sherman away they wouldn't be a worse defense. But, when with the Jets Revis was the guy who made the defense tick. He was the start point for Rex Ryan's schemes and the rest of the players fitted in like they do in Seattle.

Look at that defense from 3 or 4 years ago. Outside of Revis and Cromartie they had nobody you could describe as an upper tier player yet they were possibly the top ranked defense. Really, they had an aging Shaun Ellis, Calvin Pace, an aging Bart Scott, David Harris, an aging Trevor Pryce etc They had some nice role players like DeVito and Pouha but Revis was the guy who made that defense what it was.

I think you absolutely can have franchise CBs and if they are that good then they should be paid like it. However, it is deciding if that is how you want to build your team. You can't pay a franchise QB, franchise pass rusher and a franchise CB all $16m+.
Its completely a double edged thing.

I am, however, looking at it from the steelers perspective. I think CB for the steelers is extremely plug and play. Not that you dont have to be talented, but its way more important to be comfortable in it, understand it, and be a good tackler than it is to be a lock down man to man corner.

Theres a reason the steelers secondary has looked like its sucked the past few years...they are getting like 30 sacks per season, down from 50+ there superbowl years

So back in 2007 the steelers drafted Timmons over Revis, I admittedly didnt like revis as a prospect (silly me) but looking back id rather have timmons being king of our LBing corps and a top 10 (arguably top 5 MLB) still today than have had to lose revis after his rookie contract was up because 1) They probably couldnt afford him and 2) they would never need to pay a CB that much given the current scheme.

The seahawks would be worse without Sherman, but how much worse? Im not sure, Carrol doesnt exactly run a tight ship up there and so far for every suspension that has occurred theres been an able body to fill in, which is why I also say im absolutely in love with how hes running the team even if they are all on roids and adderall lol
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Its completely a double edged thing.

I am, however, looking at it from the steelers perspective. I think CB for the steelers is extremely plug and play. Not that you dont have to be talented, but its way more important to be comfortable in it, understand it, and be a good tackler than it is to be a lock down man to man corner.

Theres a reason the steelers secondary has looked like its sucked the past few years...they are getting like 30 sacks per season, down from 50+ there superbowl years

So back in 2007 the steelers drafted Timmons over Revis, I admittedly didnt like revis as a prospect (silly me) but looking back id rather have timmons being king of our LBing corps and a top 10 (arguably top 5 MLB) still today than have had to lose revis after his rookie contract was up because 1) They probably couldnt afford him and 2) they would never need to pay a CB that much given the current scheme.

The seahawks would be worse without Sherman, but how much worse? Im not sure, Carrol doesnt exactly run a tight ship up there and so far for every suspension that has occurred theres been an able body to fill in, which is why I also say im absolutely in love with how hes running the team even if they are all on roids and adderall lol
Well I think how any team operates will give you a relatively clear outline of their priorities.

For instance, some coordinators require top notch players in the secondary to allow them to be creative up front (Rex Ryan), some require quick penetrating pass rushers across the front 7 to cause disruption (Wade Phillips) while some require adequate players across the defense to have their own role (Bill Belichick). What you end up seeing is Ryan building up with guys like Ed Reed, Revis, Cromartie, Kyle Wilson, Dee Milliner, Calvin Pryor etc. Not everyone pans out but he has a clear desire for impact playmakers in the secondary to allow him to move guys around in the front 7. Wade Phillips used guys like Ware, Watt, Cushing, Ratliff, Spencer etc to cause havoc up front and cover up for lesser players in the secondary. Belichick likes to have guys who can play within the system at all levels but if anything prefers to be strong up the middle. Until the acquisition of Revis it was a surprise to see him devote big money to any defensive player as his philosophy is the sum of all parts is better than any individual talent.

You can find defenses which are successful using any schematic philosophy as long as they are well run. Obviously I disagree with instances such as last year in Tampa where Revis was paid like a franchise player but used like any other member of the defense. Likewise, it would be silly for any team to have a guy like Von Miller and not build the defense around him.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Richard Sherman for now. Joe Haden isn't too far behind. Peterson is fun to watch but not as shutdown as those mentioned. Revis a couple years ago.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Why exactly would you take Haden? I've seen a lot of people suggest that he would be at or near the top of the list, but there is a lot out there to suggest to the contrary. I haven't really seen any evidence to suggest that he deserves to be up there.
What out there suggests the contrary? He's an awesome CB that can play any technique. I like his style a bit better than Peterson, though it's a bit of a toss up. He's probably not the best CB in the league right now, but I like him the most over the next 4 years.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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What out there suggests the contrary? He's an awesome CB that can play any technique. I like his style a bit better than Peterson, though it's a bit of a toss up. He's probably not the best CB in the league right now, but I like him the most over the next 4 years.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ks-2013-season

http://presnapreads.com/2013/06/02/j...e-the-verdict/

Things like PFF also has him with some pretty middling type coverage statistics over the last few season.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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On principle, I'm not going to click the Bleacher Report link, I'm sorry. The second one might be interesting, I'll take a look at it. On quick glance though, Haden's been ranked 6, 13, 20, 18 among corners by PFF over his career. Not amazing, but certainly well above average, and without a single bad year. Based on the eye test, I'm taking him over the next 4.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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On principle, I'm not going to click the Bleacher Report link, I'm sorry. The second one might be interesting, I'll take a look at it. On quick glance though, Haden's been ranked 6, 13, 20, 18 among corners by PFF over his career. Not amazing, but certainly well above average, and without a single bad year. Based on the eye test, I'm taking him over the next 4.
The 1st one is the same source as the 2nd, and is cited by PFO fairly frequently. To be honest the BR article is more worthwhile than 99% of the stuff that PFF has ever done. It takes credibility and actually cites specific plays that are determining its methodology. If you're going to use PFF grades as a reference you might as well take that Bleacher report story as a source.

I don't see any way someone can watch Haden and come to the conclusion that he's anywhere in the ballpark of a Sherman or Revis. I've seen Haden worked over too many times. I could see Revis over 4 years because he's older, but Haden is in the pack with a lot of other solid but non-outstanding #1 corners like J. Smith, Flowers, McCourty, and DRC. He's not the special player that people make him out to be.
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Old 06-03-2014, 12:00 AM    (permalink
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I'm taking Richard Sherman.

He and Bleedy Ray are gonna be 2 and 3, behind the McCourty twins who become a super corner after finally perfecting the fusion technique.
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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Revis all day every day.

Sherman is great but he's not in Revis' league.
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Old 06-04-2014, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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I'm taking Richard Sherman.

He and Bleedy Ray are gonna be 2 and 3, behind the McCourty twins who become a super corner after finally perfecting the fusion technique.
Blidi-Wreh? More like Blidi-Meh
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:10 AM    (permalink
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Blidi-Wreh? More like Blidi-Meh
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