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Old 08-18-2006, 11:53 AM    (permalink
Dam8610
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Originally Posted by njx9
:roll:

two touchdowns through the air (the gamewinner was on the ground, but you didn't ask, so it must've been an irrelevant part of the game, right?).

7 (the 7 that won the game).

what's funny is that you don't understand football well enough to understand that those two facts make my argument stronger. not to mention the fact that you'd rather just talk louder in the hopes that SOMEONE will come to your rescue and say SOMETHING that makes the colts defensive line look like it can actually stop a determined power running game.

they scored two quick touchdowns. then, they ground out the rest of the clock time. this is called, winning the game with the run. what are you trying to prove here? that the colts couldn't stop the pass in the first quarter but they stopped the run so well after that that they couldn't ever seem to get the ball back? that the time of posession difference all occured in the first quarter when the steelers were throwing monster 6 and 7 yard touchdown passes? that you don't have the first clue about how a running team uses short runs to wear down a defense and control the ball (which they did to the tune of 9 extra minutes of possession)?

tell me, how the running game didn't win them that game, when it a) kept the colts team off the field for almost an entire quarter's worth of play and b) scored the winning touchdown? is it because the colts d-line was so superb in getting the colts the ball back? was it because bettis coughed the ball up for only the second time all year (which is, surprisingly, NOT indicative of a strong run defense in this case)? maybe it's because you really won that game and no one noticed?

how do the 4th downs matter?!?!?! YOU WERE BEHIND IN THE GAME AT THAT POINT. do you think dungy told the defense to just go out and let the steelers convert? YOU ABSOLUTELY FAILED TO STOP THEM IN TWO KEY SITUATIONS. period. endc of discussion. full stop. your defensive line was nto up to the task of stopping the steelers run game that day.

*yawn*

does ignorance actually hurt, or is it more of a dull ache?
Again you only choose to read what you want. What you don't want to acknowledge is that in the time they scored all of 7 points, they allowed 18 and the Colts back into the game. Their pass game is what got them up big, but when they went away from that pass game, they struggled to move the ball, didn't continue to put points on the board, and as a result, came very close to letting a game they had in control after a quarter completely slip away. Had Vanderjagt's field goal attempt been made, that would have been called losing the game with the run. How do you win a game with a run game when that run game isn't accomplishing the goals you want it to? In the second half and 4th quarter specifially, they were trying to play keep away from the Colts, yet found themselves outscored 15-7 in the half and 15-0 in the final quarter. On the drive where they converted those two 4th downs you're so adamant about, the goal was to try to limit the Colts to one possession in which to drive the ball down the field. They ended up with two after that, one of which they drove successfully into field goal range with. You're right, that running game sure did what it set out to do in those two situations. Ignorace is a condition caused by ignoring the factual evidence, even when overwhelmed by it, and continuing to argue against it. I've given you just about all the facts there are from that game, all of which countering what you're saying, yet you continue to argue against it.
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Old 08-18-2006, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jags#7
I gotta say i like the Patriots DL

DE Richard Seymour
DT-Vince Wilfork
DE Ty Warren

It is solid at every position

Jags is in the top 5.....the problem is that the have 2 elite DT, 1 very good DE and 1 average DE (paul spicer)....if we had trevor price or someone like that there i would say jags are #1
Trevor Pryce is living off of his name at this point in his career. Rob Meier was more effective in his DE/DT role than Pryce was, and Meier only played part time.

Paul Spicer is a really underappreciated part of the Jaguars' offensive line. He had 7.5 sacks, which is really good for a run-stopping defensive end who plays in a rotation. It's even more impressive considering that he plays RE on run downs, so he's usually facing the opposing teams' best pass blocker.
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Old 08-18-2006, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jags#7
I gotta say i like the Patriots DL

DE Richard Seymour
DT-Vince Wilfork
DE Ty Warren

It is solid at every position

Jags is in the top 5.....the problem is that the have 2 elite DT, 1 very good DE and 1 average DE (paul spicer)....if we had trevor price or someone like that there i would say jags are #1
Trevor Pryce is living off of his name at this point in his career. Rob Meier was more effective in his DE/DT role than Pryce was, and Meier only played part time.

Paul Spicer is a really underappreciated part of the Jaguars' offensive line. He had 7.5 sacks, which is really good for a run-stopping defensive end who plays in a rotation. It's even more impressive considering that he plays RE on run downs, so he's usually facing the opposing teams' best pass blocker.
Ever since that injury Pryce has gotten out of shape and and doesn't rush the QB as he used to.
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Old 08-18-2006, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Teams with better defensive lines than the Vikings IMO:

Seahawks: Their entire rotation of Rocky Bernard, Bryce Fisher, Grant Wistrom, Marcus Tubbs, Chartric Darby, Craig Terrill, throw in new comers, rookie Darryl Tapp and Cardinal import Russell Davis, this line could lead the league in sacks again.

Falcons: The addition of John Abraham helps, no doubt, and it could make Rod Coleman and Patrick Kerney even more dangerous, now they just need a skilled Nose Tackle and this could be the best line in football.

Giants: Osi Umenyiora and Michael Strahan are sack machines, Mathias Kiwanuka and Justin Tuck are two more dangerous ends that they have as well. If William Joseph can get into first round form and they can get another DT to do something for them, watch out NFC East.

Jaguars: The best interior line in the league without a doubt and a sack artist and a run stuffer outside, yeah, I'd take that.

Dolphins: Jason Taylor is still putting up great numbers, Kevin Carter got back into his old self last season and Vonnie Holliday looked good again too, lets find something other than size that we can credit Keith Traylor for. Then they have some solid backups in Jeff Zgonia, newly acquired Dan Wilkinson, Matt Roth and David Bowens.

Panthers: Julius Peppers is a beast in all aspects of the game, Kris Jenkins is amazing, when healthy, they down graded at tackle opposite Jenkins by letting Buckner go and Rucker is a producer because the rest of the defense makes him look better.

Ravens: Ngata is huge, Pryce can play any spot on the line well, T-Sizzle and Adalius Thomas are pass rushing DE/OLB who can drop into coverage, this line can get it done.

Eagles: The Freak will or should get back into his sack monster form when he was with the Titans now that there are some other players on the line. Darren Howard is good, Mike Patterson and Darwin Walker can get it done. The backups are probably best in the league, up there with the Seahawks and Dolphins. Ed Jasper, Brodrick Bunkley, Jerome McDougle and Trent Cole (OLB/DE).

The Vikings line has a lot of potential with Udeze and James both being very young and only entering their third and second seasons and Kevin Williams is a great pass rushing tackle, but until they can get Udeze and James rolling and a good replacement for Pat Williams who is well past his prime, they aren't that great. And I don't know if I would rather have Kevin Williams or Terrell Suggs who was picked one spot after Williams, meh.
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Old 08-18-2006, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Déja Vü
Panthers: Julius Peppers is a beast in all aspects of the game, Kris Jenkins is amazing, when healthy, they down graded at tackle opposite Jenkins by letting Buckner go and Rucker is a producer because the rest of the defense makes him look better.
I'll admit Buckner played a big role as far as leadership and inspiration goes, but Ma'ake Kemoeatu is a pretty huge upgrade in ability. Having 700 lbs worth of Jenkins and Kemo clogging up the middle is going to be awe-inspiring.
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Old 08-18-2006, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Kemoeatu has become way overrated. He is a good run stuffer and a solid tackle, nothing more.
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Old 08-18-2006, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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The Pats D has an amazing front 3

Seymour, best 3-4 DE
Wilfork, perenial Pro Bowler
Warren, will emerge this year
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Old 08-21-2006, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Canadian_kid16
The Pats D has an amazing front 3

Seymour, best 3-4 DE
Wilfork, perenial Pro Bowler
Warren, will emerge this year
Not many people are posting NE as a top d-line in their lists. I'd have to say it's between the Bears, the Seahawks, and the Giants.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by tylaw24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_kid16
The Pats D has an amazing front 3

Seymour, best 3-4 DE
Wilfork, perenial Pro Bowler
Warren, will emerge this year
Not many people are posting NE as a top d-line in their lists. I'd have to say it's between the Bears, the Seahawks, and the Giants.
Thats cause they run a 3-4. 3-4 defenses never really get respect along the line.
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Déja Vü
Falcons: The addition of John Abraham helps, no doubt, and it could make Rod Coleman and Patrick Kerney even more dangerous, now they just need a skilled Nose Tackle and this could be the best line in football
Ahem..

Quote:
Concerned about buttressing their defensive front, the Falcons have contacted behemoth nose tackle Grady Jackson, a free agent who played with the Green Bay Packers last season.

"I'm talking to them a little bit," said Angelo Wright, Jackson's agent out of Hayward, Calif. "Atlanta is a good situation."

Jackson visited the New York Jets and the New York Giants last week and is drawing interest from other teams, according to Wright. Jackson visited the Falcons back in March but was not offered a contract.

Jackson, at 6-feet-2, 355 pounds, is a run-stopper who keeps blockers off the linebackers. He has also played for Oakland and New Orleans during his nine-year career. He played parts of the 2003 season in Green Bay under current Falcons defensive coordinator Ed Donatell.

The Falcons have started Darrell Shropshire at defensive tackle in two exhibition games. Chad Lavalais started 14 games at the position last season. The Falcons have also taken long looks at undrafted rookie free agents Tommy Jackson and Michael Bozeman in the two exhibitions.

Grady Jackson would play in obvious running situations with the hope that he'd occupy two blockers and penetrate into the backfield.

Falcons coach Jim Mora wants to use a six- or seven-man defensive line rotation. He plans to play Chauncey Davis in relief of the ends and Johnathan Babineaux for Rod Coleman at defensive tackle.

"I want to try to utilize at least a six- or seven-man rotation up front and do it early in the game so those guys are fresh late," Mora said. "We want to start working on that now."
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...22falrail.html

Add that 350-pounder to the Falcons D-Line, they're easily the best. I have my fingers crossed Rich McKay signs him.

RE - John Abraham
NT - Grady Jackson
UT - Rod Coleman
LE - Patrick Kerney

*drools*
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Déja Vü
Falcons: The addition of John Abraham helps, no doubt, and it could make Rod Coleman and Patrick Kerney even more dangerous, now they just need a skilled Nose Tackle and this could be the best line in football
Ahem..

Quote:
Concerned about buttressing their defensive front, the Falcons have contacted behemoth nose tackle Grady Jackson, a free agent who played with the Green Bay Packers last season.

"I'm talking to them a little bit," said Angelo Wright, Jackson's agent out of Hayward, Calif. "Atlanta is a good situation."

Jackson visited the New York Jets and the New York Giants last week and is drawing interest from other teams, according to Wright. Jackson visited the Falcons back in March but was not offered a contract.

Jackson, at 6-feet-2, 355 pounds, is a run-stopper who keeps blockers off the linebackers. He has also played for Oakland and New Orleans during his nine-year career. He played parts of the 2003 season in Green Bay under current Falcons defensive coordinator Ed Donatell.

The Falcons have started Darrell Shropshire at defensive tackle in two exhibition games. Chad Lavalais started 14 games at the position last season. The Falcons have also taken long looks at undrafted rookie free agents Tommy Jackson and Michael Bozeman in the two exhibitions.

Grady Jackson would play in obvious running situations with the hope that he'd occupy two blockers and penetrate into the backfield.

Falcons coach Jim Mora wants to use a six- or seven-man defensive line rotation. He plans to play Chauncey Davis in relief of the ends and Johnathan Babineaux for Rod Coleman at defensive tackle.

"I want to try to utilize at least a six- or seven-man rotation up front and do it early in the game so those guys are fresh late," Mora said. "We want to start working on that now."
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...22falrail.html

Add that 350-pounder to the Falcons D-Line, they're easily the best. I have my fingers crossed Rich McKay signs him.

RE - John Abraham
NT - Grady Jackson
UT - Rod Coleman
LE - Patrick Kerney

*drools*
*thanks god im not a QB in the NFC South*
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Old 08-22-2006, 08:57 PM    (permalink
 
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dude where r the jaguars they got Marcus Stroud and John Henderson plus the underatted Reggie Hayward they r the @nd best behind the panthers
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:12 PM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by pav
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The Chicago Bears, hands down.
ogunyele, brown, harris, tank williams (is he the other dt?)

i don't know about that, i'd take vikings and panthers over the bears d-line. The linebackers are probably the best, but not the d-line.
How old are you?

I like the Vikings D-line a lot but at this point you can't say they are better than the Bears. If James and Udeze have seasons comparable to the ones O-Gun and Alex Brown had last year then you could make that argument, but they haven't yet.

And Ian Scott is the other starter. If you want to make a list like this you should at least inform yourself on the other teams. Not to mention that depth is a HUGE component in terms of ranking defensive lines.

Here are some other options for consideration besides the Bears:
Jaguars
Chargers
Ravens
Steelers
Seahawks
Bucs (not really but I'll throw them out there anyway)
i think your lost why did u put the chargers on there they have no defense
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by pav
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Originally Posted by Shiver
The Chicago Bears, hands down.
ogunyele, brown, harris, tank williams (is he the other dt?)

i don't know about that, i'd take vikings and panthers over the bears d-line. The linebackers are probably the best, but not the d-line.
How old are you?

I like the Vikings D-line a lot but at this point you can't say they are better than the Bears. If James and Udeze have seasons comparable to the ones O-Gun and Alex Brown had last year then you could make that argument, but they haven't yet.

And Ian Scott is the other starter. If you want to make a list like this you should at least inform yourself on the other teams. Not to mention that depth is a HUGE component in terms of ranking defensive lines.

Here are some other options for consideration besides the Bears:
Jaguars
Chargers
Ravens
Steelers
Seahawks
Bucs (not really but I'll throw them out there anyway)
i think your lost why did u put the chargers on there they have no defense

They have one of the best NT's around, and 2 very good 3-4 DEs. The best line, no, but deserving of mention? I'd say so. He listed 6 others, so to name them isnt a stretch.
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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I like the Bears DL. I think they are top 3. But to say they are the undisputed #1 is a complete joke of a comment. They were out-produced by at least 4 or 5 other DL last year. If you are just judging on sacks than I believe the Bears had the #2 or #3 pair of DE last year. If you base it on total production there were about the 4th or 5th best. Again, I still think they are top 3 (I know you can't just judge on production) but to say it is not even close is just foolish.
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Old 08-23-2006, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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You can't compare a 3-4 line to a 4-3 line. Its just not fair. Tehy have different jobs.

The best 3-4 line is either the Steelers or the Pats.

The Steelers have the best NT and a very good DE in Aaron Smith. Brett Keisel is good and will show it this year.

The Pats have the best 3-4 DE and a good NT in Vince Wilfork who has a ton of potential. Warrne should emerge and be good this year4 aswell.

as the 4-3 I think the Panthers are 1, Bears 2, Jaguars 3, Ravens 4 and Falcons come in 5th. The Vikings have potential and will crack the top 5 eventually.
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Old 08-23-2006, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
You can't compare a 3-4 line to a 4-3 line. Its just not fair. Tehy have different jobs.

The best 3-4 line is either the Steelers or the Pats.

The Steelers have the best NT and a very good DE in Aaron Smith. Brett Keisel is good and will show it this year.

The Pats have the best 3-4 DE and a very good NT in Vince Wilfork. Warrne should emerge and be good this year4 aswell.

as the 4-3 I think the Panthers are 1, Bears 2, Jaguars 3 and Vikings 4.
Don't forget about the San Diego Chargers if you're talking about great 3-4 defensive lines.

DE: Luis Castillo
NT: Jamal Williams
DE: Igor Olshansky
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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In the 3-4, the Chargers and Pats have the best lines. In the 4-3, the Panthers and Falcons have the best lines. Several others(Bears, Jags) are as good or close to as good as those 2 though. The Vikings line is overhyped. The Ravens have the most versitile line and the Bears have the best young talent on their line IMO.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Moses
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
You can't compare a 3-4 line to a 4-3 line. Its just not fair. Tehy have different jobs.

The best 3-4 line is either the Steelers or the Pats.

The Steelers have the best NT and a very good DE in Aaron Smith. Brett Keisel is good and will show it this year.

The Pats have the best 3-4 DE and a very good NT in Vince Wilfork. Warrne should emerge and be good this year4 aswell.

as the 4-3 I think the Panthers are 1, Bears 2, Jaguars 3 and Vikings 4.
Don't forget about the San Diego Chargers if you're talking about great 3-4 defensive lines.

DE: Luis Castillo
NT: Jamal Williams
DE: Igor Olshansky
I don't think they are the top yet. When you look at the Steelers and Pats they have established guys while the Chargers have some young guys with a ton of potential. I'd like to see more of Castillo and Olshansky before we call this line the best 3-4 D-line.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by America
In the 3-4, the Chargers and Pats have the best lines. In the 4-3, the Panthers and Falcons have the best lines. Several others(Bears, Jags) are as good or close to as good as those 2 though. The Vikings line is overhyped. The Ravens have the most versitile line and the Bears have the best young talent on their line IMO.
The Vikings have two DEs with alot of potential. Since this is a NFL draft board people tend to overrated the early draft picks early in their career. Their DEs have alot of potential but they arn't among the best in the league yet. Same goes for the Chargers with Castillo.
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by America
In the 3-4, the Chargers and Pats have the best lines. In the 4-3, the Panthers and Falcons have the best lines. Several others(Bears, Jags) are as good or close to as good as those 2 though. The Vikings line is overhyped. The Ravens have the most versitile line and the Bears have the best young talent on their line IMO.
The Vikings have two DEs with alot of potential. Since this is a NFL draft board people tend to overrated the early draft picks early in their career. Their DEs have alot of potential but they arn't among the best in the league yet. Same goes for the Chargers with Castillo.
Well with the Chargers, Castillo hasn't developed, but he played on a very good level last year. He, unlike the Vikings young DEs, has proven to be a solid player. Olshanksy is almost as good as he will ever be. Williams is one of the top NTs. In NE, Warren and Wilfork are fairly young and have room to grow, as they have massive potentials. Seymour is already established. In Pittsburgh, Keisel is a 1st time starter with much less potential than the other dlineman being mentioned. Smith and Hampton are both solid Pro Bowlers. Pat Williams isn't nearly as good as he used to be. Kevin Williams has to step it up, he's still got loads of potential. Udeze and James aren't proven on any level. They're also both going into a new system. Not that they aren't a good line, I just think they are overrated and unproven at this point.
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by America
In the 3-4, the Chargers and Pats have the best lines. In the 4-3, the Panthers and Falcons have the best lines. Several others(Bears, Jags) are as good or close to as good as those 2 though. The Vikings line is overhyped. The Ravens have the most versitile line and the Bears have the best young talent on their line IMO.
The Vikings have two DEs with alot of potential. Since this is a NFL draft board people tend to overrated the early draft picks early in their career. Their DEs have alot of potential but they arn't among the best in the league yet. Same goes for the Chargers with Castillo.
Well with the Chargers, Castillo hasn't developed, but he played on a very good level last year. He, unlike the Vikings young DEs, has proven to be a solid player. Olshanksy is almost as good as he will ever be. Williams is one of the top NTs. In NE, Warren and Wilfork are fairly young and have room to grow, as they have massive potentials. Seymour is already established. In Pittsburgh, Keisel is a 1st time starter with much less potential than the other dlineman being mentioned. Smith and Hampton are both solid Pro Bowlers. Pat Williams isn't nearly as good as he used to be. Kevin Williams has to step it up, he's still got loads of potential. Udeze and James aren't proven on any level. They're also both going into a new system. Not that they aren't a good line, I just think they are overrated and unproven at this point.
I agree with almost everything you said there. Plus you proved my point as to why the Steelers line is the best 3-4 right now. Not in a year or two but right now they are.
But I agree that the Vikings are overrated. I don't think they are in the top 5 4-3 D-lines. They have potential to be great with the pair of DEs they have there.
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by America
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Originally Posted by America
In the 3-4, the Chargers and Pats have the best lines. In the 4-3, the Panthers and Falcons have the best lines. Several others(Bears, Jags) are as good or close to as good as those 2 though. The Vikings line is overhyped. The Ravens have the most versitile line and the Bears have the best young talent on their line IMO.
The Vikings have two DEs with alot of potential. Since this is a NFL draft board people tend to overrated the early draft picks early in their career. Their DEs have alot of potential but they arn't among the best in the league yet. Same goes for the Chargers with Castillo.
Well with the Chargers, Castillo hasn't developed, but he played on a very good level last year. He, unlike the Vikings young DEs, has proven to be a solid player. Olshanksy is almost as good as he will ever be. Williams is one of the top NTs. In NE, Warren and Wilfork are fairly young and have room to grow, as they have massive potentials. Seymour is already established. In Pittsburgh, Keisel is a 1st time starter with much less potential than the other dlineman being mentioned. Smith and Hampton are both solid Pro Bowlers. Pat Williams isn't nearly as good as he used to be. Kevin Williams has to step it up, he's still got loads of potential. Udeze and James aren't proven on any level. They're also both going into a new system. Not that they aren't a good line, I just think they are overrated and unproven at this point.
I agree with almost everything you said there. Plus you proved my point as to why the Steelers line is the best 3-4 right now. Not in a year or two but right now they are.
But I agree that the Vikings are overrated. I don't think they are in the top 5 4-3 D-lines. They have potential to be great with the pair of DEs they have there.
I think the Steelers should look into Adam Carikker and Amobi Okoye. Smith is 30, Hampton 29, Keisel I think is 28 or 29 as well. Orien Harris was a great pick in the 4th though, however, more pieces are needed.
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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They have a poor man's Stroud/Henderson in Gregg/Ngata
By those standards, Jon Kitna is a poor man's Peyton Manning.
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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They have a poor man's Stroud/Henderson in Gregg/Ngata
By those standards, Jon Kitna is a poor man's Peyton Manning.
Seriously.
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