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Old 04-24-2007, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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I would also put the Bengals with Johnson, Housh, and an unsuspended Henry ahead of the Rams.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bsaza2358 View Post
I would also put the Bengals with Johnson, Housh, and an unsuspended Henry ahead of the Rams.
The Bengals with that WR core, all active, could be argued as the best around. I would think its only really rivaled by Arizona and Indy, but I would take that Bengals lineup over Indys.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thule View Post
You do realize the Anthony Henry put up the best numbers of any number 2 CB...and Aaron Glenn put up the best numbers of any #3 corner. I won't get started on Tnew...he is what he is. Sure Roy can't cover...but he is one of the best intimidators in the game. FS is a bit in the air...but the addition of Ken Hamlin makes the situation a little better.
thule, what kind of numbers are you talking about? Passes defensed? INT's? Tackles? Or are you talking about metrics, such as yards per attempt, errors, bad beats, etc?
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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i'm willing to buy that new orleans COULD be at the top for running backs (i like mcallister a lot), but i'm just not sure that bush was that great a running back last year (yeah, yeah, technicalities).
Well the thing is Reggie Bush is one of the most uniquely utilized RBs in the NFL. Because of his versatility his role is quite different from most other backs league wide. He gets split out wide often to force Linebacker mismatches and draw a Defender away from the box, he runs a lot of routes from many different formations. The only runningback that I can think of that is used in a similar manner is Westbrook.

He has quite a bit to learn in becoming a seasoned runner but he's gotten better at not losing yardage with each game. He's still a gamebreaker who Defenses have to account for as he can score from anywhere on the field if you disregard his presence (see his 88 yard TD in the NFC Championship game)

When McAllister is healthy he's a top notch inside runner. He came back from ACL surgery this season so I anticipate him gaining some burst next season. He's a big framed back with light feet, he has great lower body strength so he can shed arm tackles easily and finishes his runs well.

As a unit there's a lot of versatility offered, and I think they compliment each other excellently. When they're both on the field as a playcaller you have a great unpredictability factor.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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thule, what kind of numbers are you talking about? Passes defensed? INT's? Tackles? Or are you talking about metrics, such as yards per attempt, errors, bad beats, etc?
nfl.com had a article I'll dig it up.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Well....at least the Giants can say we have the best defensive end rotation in the NFL.

=/

Dammit, I miss my 3-4 defense. *tears*
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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I would like to see this article. I trust KC Joyner's statistical measures more than others. The yards per attempt against is a very reliable measure of CB performance in coverage and tackling.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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I would like to see this article. I trust KC Joyner's statistical measures more than others. The yards per attempt against is a very reliable measure of CB performance in coverage and tackling.
Joyner is full of ****. last year he called Samuel 1 of the best CBs then this year he says his 10 INTs are replacable
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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Hall, Gamble don't deserve hype

By KC Joyner
ESPN.com

No position in the NFL is judged more by hype than accomplishment like the cornerback position. One good performance in a nationally televised game can mean more to a cornerback's reputation than a season's worth of good play on a bad team.

One of the things I enjoy most is cutting through this kind of subjective analysis. It is in this frame of mind that I present my list of the five most overrated and underrated cornerbacks in the NFL. Keep in mind these are not necessarily the best or worst players at this position. These are simply the players whose reputations don't match their performance level.

Underrated

1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- Henry's reputation suffers from being lined up opposite Terence Newman, but his metrics are actually better than Newman's (6.5 yards per attempt for Henry versus 7.8 for Newman). Henry's metrics are even more impressive when you realize he is targeted nearly twice as often as Newman (75 pass attempts thrown at Henry to 44 for Newman).

Opposing teams have been testing Henry on deep passes of late, throwing 12 deep balls at him in the past five games, but he has allowed only four successful plays out of those 12 (two completions and two pass interference penalties).

2. Aaron Glenn, Dallas Cowboys -- Glenn is the Cowboys' nickel back, so he doesn't have as many passes thrown to him as Henry or Newman, but his 5.3 YPA indicates he might be the best nickel back in the league. Bill Parcells says he has so much faith in Glenn he believes there would be no drop-off if Glenn had to fill in for either Henry or Newman.

3. Andre Goodman, Miami Dolphins -- Goodman could be a candidate for most improved player of the year. He languished in Detroit last year and ended up with a YPA of just under 9.0. The Dolphins looked to be in trouble when Goodman was forced into a starting role after Travis Daniels was injured, but Goodman has flourished in Nick Saban's aggressive defensive scheme. Goodman did so well filling in for Daniels, he kept the starting spot even after Daniels returned from his injury.

4. Andre Dyson, New York Jets -- Dyson's metrics don't make it clear why he is on this list, but consider his situation. All season long, Dyson has been lined up opposite either Justin Miller or Drew Coleman. Miller's YPA this year has hovered well over the 10-yard mark and Coleman hasn't done a whole lot better. The Jets' defensive schemes have been tilted away from Dyson because of this and has often been left on an island. Giving up 8.4 YPA in this instance is actually a badge of honor.

Underrated

Player / Att / Comp / Yds / TD / INT / Pen / P-Yds / YPA
Henry / 75 / 36 / 429 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 62 / 6.5
Glenn / 16 / 7 / 84 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 5.3
Dyson / 48 / 35 / 401 / 6 / 3 /0 / 0 / 8.4
Goodman / 42 / 17 / 268 / 1 / 1 / 3 / 18 / 6.8

Overrated

1. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- John Madden knighted Hall as a great cornerback after Hall had a fairly good game against Terrell Owens in the "Monday Night Football" 2005 season opener. Since then, the hype machine has been going full bore and he is now seen as one of the best corners in the NFL.

The thing I don't understand is how Hall's reputation keeps surviving after each Sunday's highlight reels. Hall has given up a 40-plus yard pass play in four of his last eight games and three of these have been 60 or more yards. This is the primary reason he is allowing nearly 11 yards per attempt. How anyone can call him a shutdown corner this year is simply beyond me.

2. Chris Gamble, Carolina Panthers -- Gamble is one of those Lito Sheppard-like players who masks a lack of coverage skills with an ability to get interceptions. These types of players have value when they register six or seven interceptions, as Gamble did in his first two years in the league. When these players have only two interceptions in 11 games and are giving up 11 yards per attempt, their value drops precipitously.

3. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- Robinson's season-long YPA is quite good, but he tends to build his stats against second-rate opponents. To illustrate this point, I calculated his numbers against the best competition he has faced so far this year (a list that includes Donte Stallworth, Brandon Stokley, Marvin Harrison, Chris Chambers, Santana Moss, Lee Evans and Laveranues Coles). He has allowed 12 completions (20 attempts) for 196 and two touchdowns, without notching an interception. His YPA is 10.1.

This list didn't include Terry Glenn, who was the one elite receiver Robinson fared well against, allowing only three completions and 28 yards in eight attempts. Beyond Glenn, however, Robinson barely slowed down the best receivers he faced this year. If he can't do better than this against high-level competition, how can he be touted as a Pro Bowl cornerback?

4. Mike McKenzie, New Orleans Saints -- McKenzie's 8.0 YPA is especially mediocre when you consider the names that showed up at or near the 8.0 YPA mark in the 2005 season: Ron Bartell, Ike Taylor, Fabian Washington, Andre Woolfolk, Will Allen and Jason Webster.

McKenzie is much more skilled than any of these players, yet for some reason he still gives up as many yards per attempt as they do. Coach Sean Payton has done a great job of getting most of the Saints' players to perform above their talent level this year. If Payton wants a challenge for the 2007 season, he should try getting McKenzie to play to his talent level.

Overrated

Player / Att / Comp / Yds / TD / INT / Pen / P-Yds / YPA
Gamble / 42 / 23 / 463 / 4 / 3 / 0 / 0 / 11.0
McKenzie / 38 / 20 / 314 / 1 / 0 / 1 / -10 / 8.0
Hall / 56 / 28 / 575 / 4 / 2 / 1 / 27 / 10.8
Robinson / 54 / 26 / 389 / 3 / 2 / 1 / 5 / 7.3

Underrated/Overrated tandem pick

1. Terrence McGee/Nate Clements, Buffalo Bills -- This pair has to be the perfect example of why I hate hype so much. In every Bills' broadcast, the announcers trip over themselves to praise Clements as a great player, while McGee is merely touted as an up-and-coming player. Clements was the high draft pick and signed the big free-agent deal, so the assumption is he must be a much better player.

The metrics show McGee is nearly as good as, if not better than, Clements. In 2005, McGee had a YPA that was 1.5 yards better than Clements and his success percentage was nearly identical to that of Clements. Clements is ahead in the YPA and success percentage columns this year, but the difference between them isn't terribly significant.

Clements has allowed only 49 fewer yards than McGee on nearly the same number of pass attempts. McGee has allowed five touchdowns while Clements has allowed one, but their numbers are nearly identical otherwise. Nevertheless, Clements is still seen as the Pro Bowl-caliber player and McGee is merely viewed as a solid starter.

Buffalo

Player / Att / Comp / Yds / TD / INT / Pen / P-Yds / YPA
Clements / 56 / 33 / 410 / 1 / 3 / 1 / -10 / 7.1
McGee / 53 / 37 / 430 / 5 / 0 / 1 / 19 / 8.5

KC Joyner, aka The Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. His latest book, "Scientific Football 2006," is available for order at his Web site, http://thefootballscientist.com.
This isn't the exact article I remember...but it still shows Henry and Glenn up against some of the "supposed" top guys.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Metrics...


I poop on metrics.


Nothing beats the eyeball evaluation. You cant make statistical sense of this game. Its impossible.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
i'm willing to buy that new orleans COULD be at the top for running backs (i like mcallister a lot), but i'm just not sure that bush was that great a running back last year (yeah, yeah, technicalities).

i do like jacksonville's running back situation a lot IF taylor is healthy. the font size on vbulletin doesn't go high enough for me to visually demonstrate what a massive if i think that is.
Fred isn't as injury prone as people make him out to be anymore. Since 2002, he's only missed 8 games due to injury. Compare that to his first four years, where he missed 24 games due to injury.

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Originally Posted by Moses
How do you put Jacksonville above San Diego and New Orleans?

Tomlinson is far and away the best RB in the league. Turner is a great backup.

McAllister is better than anybody Jacksonville has by quite a margin. Bush and Jones-Drew are comparable at this point in their careers.
Deuce has been very underrated his entire career, but is he better than Taylor? Furthermore, is he better than him by a large margin? Look at their numbers over their career. Taylor has consistently matched or outperformed Deuce's production (except in TDs), with less carries and a higher ypc.

The thing that keeps Jacksonville at the top for me is that you have to include Greg Jones as part of that backfield. He was poised to take the starting job from Taylor in training camp last season before tearing his ACL. While he is still recovering from it, it is nowhere near as bad as the injury he suffered at Florida State.

I also retract my statement about them being the "uncontested" best backfield in the league. I let homerism get the best of me.

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Old 04-24-2007, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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The thing that keeps Jacksonville at the top for me is that you have to include Greg Jones as part of that backfield. He was poised to take the starting job from Taylor in training camp last season before tearing his ACL. While he is still recovering from it, it is nowhere near as bad as the injury he suffered at Florida State.
Then you have to include LoNeal for SD....I just don't see how theyre not the overall number 1 for RB and I don't think it makes me a homer. The Greatest in the game at both RB and FB, and arguably the best backup RB in the game.

Edit: Okay, i just saw you retract the uncontested part, so I'll let it go. It's your opinion that Jax is the best and you gave reasons for it so I won't keep pushing my case any more, as long as you know there is at least debate.

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Old 04-24-2007, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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thule, that article from KC Joyner just shows that Henry is underrated. That doesn't prove that he's the best #2 CB in the league.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Okay, so Dallas has a very good secondary, but not top 2. Any other challengers?
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Okay, so Dallas has a very good secondary, but not top 2. Any other challengers?
Can you give me metrics of a better trio?
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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I believe that the starting secondary on the Eagles and the Ravens is better than Dallas. Saying that Roy Williams is an intimidator doesn't make him less incompetent in coverage. Newman is a top 5 CB, and Henry is very good. Adding Hamlin helps, but he has some coverage issues as well. I think Dallas has a very good run defending secondary, but their deep pass coverage and help is not there, IMO.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Defensive Line- Chicago Bears, when Harris is healthy.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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NE and Miami (Joey Porter, Channing Crowder, Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor) should be in the debate for LB as should Denver, both with Baltimore, Chicago and SD

but really at this point alot of things can be "argued" by folks.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Defensive Line- Chicago Bears, when Harris is healthy.
um no.

Suggs + Pryce > Ogun/Brown
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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NE and Miami (Joey Porter, Channing Crowder, Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor) should be in the debate for LB as should Denver, both with Baltimore, Chicago and SD

but really at this point alot of things can be "argued" by folks.
Why is Jason Taylor included in the LB debate?
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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I believe that the starting secondary on the Eagles and the Ravens is better than Dallas. Saying that Roy Williams is an intimidator doesn't make him less incompetent in coverage. Newman is a top 5 CB, and Henry is very good. Adding Hamlin helps, but he has some coverage issues as well. I think Dallas has a very good run defending secondary, but their deep pass coverage and help is not there, IMO.
Roy Williams
337tack/6.5sack/17int/3td/33passdefensed

Ed Reed
328tack/4sack/27int/3td/36passdefensed

Putting Roy up against the best S in the game...doesn't look half bad to me.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Why is Jason Taylor included in the LB debate?
He play LB in the 3-4?
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Why is Jason Taylor included in the LB debate?
Taylor played a flex DE/LB in the Miami scheme. I think he will stick with that role under Cameron.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by remix 6 View Post
um no.

Suggs + Pryce > Ogun/Brown
Um yes. I'm pretty sure Anderson had double digit sacks last year, if i recall correctly. I'll take Chicago's interior lineman over Baltimores any day.
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Taylor played a flex DE/LB in the Miami scheme. I think he will stick with that role under Cameron.
Oh okay, don't watch the dolphins all that closely, just thought he was always a DE...my mistake.
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