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Old 10-16-2006, 02:05 PM    (permalink
Go_Eli
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what I was mainly trying to point out there was... (Bold)
Big Blue you noticed I was defending Ben before his win. He played Well yesterday. What does he have to do to win a game and not manager it? He has 2 TD passes and averaged 15 yards a pass. He Beat KC with His arm. Eli managed, 180 yards off of 17 completions, 30 attempts. He also had 2 TDs, but Had 2 INTs. Ben did better than Eli yesterday, but Eli can't do wrong, Yet Ben played a good game so, he just managed the game well.
My high school QB could have thrown some of those TD passes. The TD pass to Ward was a TD pass any NFL-competent QB completes.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:08 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Basileus777
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Yada yada
Look at Ben's stats when he actually has to win the game. Then, if you still want to, come back and complain.
You mean like in Denver last year? His stats were pretty good then.
Thats what irritates me. You'll make the excuse that Eli has to win the game. It doesn't matter the fact he has an all-pro RB, or 2 of the best defensive ends in the league to hold his lead, but Eli leads the whole team, Meanwhile ben is just a so-so game manager. But the Fact Ben went 13-0 as a rookie regular season starter.. AND 1-1 in his first preseason? It irritates me that everyone will defend Eli to the death because he's Eli Manning. But will make the same arguments against Ben, that could be made about Eli, but thats not ok.
You claim you can make the same comparos, yet you couldn't be more wrong.

1. W/L record is more of an indication of the TEAM, not an individual player. A qb who averaged roughly 17 throws a game as a rookie should not be credited solely for the W/L record that year like so many Steelers fans do. You point the finger at us, yet 99% of the Steeler fans out there credit Ben solely for their SB success which is obviously inaccurate. Pot calling the kettle black?

2. Ben has not won any games when he has to throw 30+ times, and has a qb rating of roughly 50. 50. Naturally, common sense tells you that the more you throw, the chances are more likely that your qb rating will go down.

3. Eli lost the Carolina game on his own? Yes he played bad, no doubt. He wasn't a linebacker though. We had 4th string LBs in that game, and Carolina had double the T.O.P. that we had. But thats Eli's fault...you never see Ben get that kind of blame, but everyone backs up Eli right?

4. Before the season started, all we heard from you guys was how Miller is a PB caliber TE, Ward is a PB WR, and Parker is a double threat out of the backfield. Now he has no help? Right...

We can go on and on and on...but seriously, this is getting tiring.
1) I never credited Ben soley with the Superbowl Win, if you read my previous post i said a so-so performance.

2) You're saying that Because Ben hasn't had to throw 30+ times he's not a leader or Great QB? I think the fact he doesn't HAVE to throw 30+ times is an indication that Pittsburgh is a great team.

3)I'm not blaming soley Eli, but you have no problem blaming Ben for his poor play. If you ignore the fact that the oline has been a revolving door, our WR's not getting open. But thats all Ben's fault. See the argument could be made for Both QB's but somehow it 9 times out of 10 gets thrown aside for Ben, because he's labled as a game manager.

4)I think Miller and Ward are Pro-Bowl Caliber players. But Ward hasn't been playing as himself and Miller hasn't progressed as much as we hoped. If Miller continued playing at the level he had prior to this season, he could have very well been a pro-bowl TE, however it's hard to fight with guys like Kellen Winslow, Antonio Gates, and Todd Heap.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Basileus777
Ben threw 29 times in the AFC championship game and was the Steelers offense that game. Thats not managing the game. Who cares if it was 1 throw below 30. None of the Ben-haters/Eli-Homers have addressed his performance at Indie and Denver last year. You can't pretend that those games never happened in order to support what you want to believe.
Thank You.


My Sole point for my entire posting in this Thread is mainly.

Ben is weak in the same exact areas that Eli is, but everyone will fight Tooth and nail for Eli and defend his mishaps. When Ben has a bad game it's because he's a sh*tty Qb and isn't in Eli's League.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Basileus777
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Yada yada
Look at Ben's stats when he actually has to win the game. Then, if you still want to, come back and complain.
You mean like in Denver last year? His stats were pretty good then.
Thats what irritates me. You'll make the excuse that Eli has to win the game. It doesn't matter the fact he has an all-pro RB, or 2 of the best defensive ends in the league to hold his lead, but Eli leads the whole team, Meanwhile ben is just a so-so game manager. But the Fact Ben went 13-0 as a rookie regular season starter.. AND 1-1 in his first preseason? It irritates me that everyone will defend Eli to the death because he's Eli Manning. But will make the same arguments against Ben, that could be made about Eli, but thats not ok.
I see where you're coming from but-

The Steelers O-line, rushing game, defense, and coaching are all better than the Giants.
what I was mainly trying to point out there was... (Bold)
Big Blue you noticed I was defending Ben before his win. He played Well yesterday. What does he have to do to win a game and not manager it? He has 2 TD passes and averaged 15 yards a pass. He Beat KC with His arm. Eli managed, 180 yards off of 17 completions, 30 attempts. He also had 2 TDs, but Had 2 INTs. Ben did better than Eli yesterday, but Eli can't do wrong, Yet Ben played a good game so, he just managed the game well.

Albeit 2 different teams Atlanta and Kansas City, but We'll play Atlanta next week. We'll see how Ben does next week.

I just don't see how Eli is so well and cut better than Ben, Because Ben had a slow start this season (See: Carson Palmer), but yet both Carson and Eli are top 10 QB's and Roeth is just a game Manager. Thats Rediculous.
You know, you're right. Im coming off harsher than Im intending. I am with you that Ben is better than most in this thread believe, I just need to see more, ya know? The KC game, I expect him to do well when he throws that many times. I need to see him play well when they come out putting the game in his hands. Then I can give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, Eli managed the game against ATL, but it was a different. We throw to set up the run, you guys run to set up the throw. That ATL defense, they gameplanned Eli, not Tiki. Thats always the case with us. Thats why its difficult to compare, because their responsibilities within their repsective schemes are different. Teams plan on stopping Pitts run attack. With us, they try to stop our pass attack, we're a pass first team. Thats why in order for me to put Ben another notch up in my personal evaluation, I need to see him put the offense on his shoulders and carry the team. Until I see that, I can't say he got any better than last year, and I can't say that he's anything more than a manager.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:13 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Go_Eli
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
what I was mainly trying to point out there was... (Bold)
Big Blue you noticed I was defending Ben before his win. He played Well yesterday. What does he have to do to win a game and not manager it? He has 2 TD passes and averaged 15 yards a pass. He Beat KC with His arm. Eli managed, 180 yards off of 17 completions, 30 attempts. He also had 2 TDs, but Had 2 INTs. Ben did better than Eli yesterday, but Eli can't do wrong, Yet Ben played a good game so, he just managed the game well.
My high school QB could have thrown some of those TD passes. The TD pass to Ward was a TD pass any NFL-competent QB completes.
So? He made it. End of story, every QB has a play like that now and again. So the first time it happens to Ben this season... It's a problem?
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:17 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Basileus777
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Yada yada
Look at Ben's stats when he actually has to win the game. Then, if you still want to, come back and complain.
You mean like in Denver last year? His stats were pretty good then.
Thats what irritates me. You'll make the excuse that Eli has to win the game. It doesn't matter the fact he has an all-pro RB, or 2 of the best defensive ends in the league to hold his lead, but Eli leads the whole team, Meanwhile ben is just a so-so game manager. But the Fact Ben went 13-0 as a rookie regular season starter.. AND 1-1 in his first preseason? It irritates me that everyone will defend Eli to the death because he's Eli Manning. But will make the same arguments against Ben, that could be made about Eli, but thats not ok.
I see where you're coming from but-

The Steelers O-line, rushing game, defense, and coaching are all better than the Giants.
what I was mainly trying to point out there was... (Bold)
Big Blue you noticed I was defending Ben before his win. He played Well yesterday. What does he have to do to win a game and not manager it? He has 2 TD passes and averaged 15 yards a pass. He Beat KC with His arm. Eli managed, 180 yards off of 17 completions, 30 attempts. He also had 2 TDs, but Had 2 INTs. Ben did better than Eli yesterday, but Eli can't do wrong, Yet Ben played a good game so, he just managed the game well.

Albeit 2 different teams Atlanta and Kansas City, but We'll play Atlanta next week. We'll see how Ben does next week.

I just don't see how Eli is so well and cut better than Ben, Because Ben had a slow start this season (See: Carson Palmer), but yet both Carson and Eli are top 10 QB's and Roeth is just a game Manager. Thats Rediculous.
You know, you're right. Im coming off harsher than Im intending. I am with you that Ben is better than most in this thread believe, I just need to see more, ya know? The KC game, I expect him to do well when he throws that many times. I need to see him play well when they come out putting the game in his hands. Then I can give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, Eli managed the game against ATL, but it was a different. We throw to set up the run, you guys run to set up the throw. That ATL defense, they gameplanned Eli, not Tiki. Thats always the case with us. Thats why its difficult to compare, because their responsibilities within their repsective schemes are different. Teams plan on stopping Pitts run attack. With us, they try to stop our pass attack, we're a pass first team. Thats why in order for me to put Ben another notch up in my personal evaluation, I need to see him put the offense on his shoulders and carry the team. Until I see that, I can't say he got any better than last year, and I can't say that he's anything more than a manager.
I see where you're coming from, but you can't hold Pittsburghs philosophy against him. He did great in Denver against the best Corner in the league. My point was just, Games he could throw 30+ times (like yesterday) He threw 16 and deflated the chiefs T.O.P. unless Ben leaves there's going to be very few times that he'll have to throw 30+ times.

We show the Denver game. People say Oh 1 game. If he did it yesterday it would be.. "Oh 2 games" I wasn't fighting, just simply stating their both Young QB's, Great Pocket Presence and run their Respective teams well. But I hate everyone knocking on Ben because he does as he's asked to do. Up until this season he's been golden, so now he has a rough start (after a horrid offseason) and people jump on the Anti-Roethlisberger bandwagon.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Go_Eli
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
what I was mainly trying to point out there was... (Bold)
Big Blue you noticed I was defending Ben before his win. He played Well yesterday. What does he have to do to win a game and not manager it? He has 2 TD passes and averaged 15 yards a pass. He Beat KC with His arm. Eli managed, 180 yards off of 17 completions, 30 attempts. He also had 2 TDs, but Had 2 INTs. Ben did better than Eli yesterday, but Eli can't do wrong, Yet Ben played a good game so, he just managed the game well.
My high school QB could have thrown some of those TD passes. The TD pass to Ward was a TD pass any NFL-competent QB completes.
It looks like we found a new way to evaluate players. All screen passes will not count when evaluating a QB, fumbles when the QB is sacked will no longer be credited to the QB, PAT and field goals less than 45 yards will not be credited to kickers, and 1 yard TD runs will not be counted when evaluation goaline backs. This man is a genious.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Stiller- I think you're letting their personal opinions get to you a little much. Myself, I dismiss anyone automatically that doesn't think Ben Roethlisberger is a good QB. That is about as ignorant as you can possibly get and not even worth the time to respond to. Let them bash him and spend your time doing something more worthwhile.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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I'm just waiting for bigbluedefense to tell us all again how much better the Chargers OL is than the Giants? :?

If the Pro Bowl voting were done today it should read Manning, Rivers and Pennington. How is that not playing at a pro bowl level? Just because Brady is a the household name, doesn't make it Rivers or Penningtons accomplishments any less significant.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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3. San Diego (4-1). Stunning prediction for you: Philip Rivers will play in the Pro Bowl this season.
peter king seems to think so. but i suppose he's an idiot too. why are we having this argument anyway? all 3 qb's are different, they all 3 do things well. they all 3 lead their teams to victory. no need to belittle another qb to validate your point. all 3 are great in their own ways. my preference is philip, mainly because i know how good he is and i've followed him since his freshman year at ncsu. i hope all 3 get at least 3 rings a piece.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by drowe
I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
"led"? Honestly, they won that game IN SPITE of Big Ben. Now, no one is saying that Ben is a bad quarterback (he definitely was in the super bowl, however, and you can't ignore that) we're simply saying we would take two other very good quarterbacks over him.

As for whoever said Brady shouldn't make the Pro Bowl, I agree so far, but it doesn't change the fact that he will.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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People, interceptions are rarely a QB's fault. Eli Manning had two yesterday, I do not fault him at all for his first one. It was deflected by Rod Coleman's hand and fell right to Demorrio Williams. Interceptions in general are only about 1/3 of the time a Quarterback's fault.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Wynel
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Originally Posted by drowe
I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
"led"? Honestly, they won that game IN SPITE of Big Ben. Now, no one is saying that Ben is a bad quarterback (he definitely was in the super bowl, however, and you can't ignore that) we're simply saying we would take two other very good quarterbacks over him.

As for whoever said Brady shouldn't make the Pro Bowl, I agree so far, but it doesn't change the fact that he will.
Well the Steelers certainly wouldn't have went 15-1 or won the superbowl with Charlie Batch or Tommy Maddox at the helm.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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I'm just waiting for bigbluedefense to tell us all again how much better the Chargers OL is than the Giants? :?

If the Pro Bowl voting were done today it should read Manning, Rivers and Pennington. How is that not playing at a pro bowl level? Just because Brady is a the household name, doesn't make it Rivers or Penningtons accomplishments any less significant.
Simple.

1. SD gave up less sacks than any other oline in the league.

2. McNeil>>>>>Petitgout

3. SD's oline commits nooo waaay as many false starts as NYG's, or holdings etc for that matter

4. Luke Petitgout

5. Luke Petitgout

6. Luke Petitgout

Did I mention Luke Petitgout?
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Wynel
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Originally Posted by drowe
I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
"led"? Honestly, they won that game IN SPITE of Big Ben. Now, no one is saying that Ben is a bad quarterback (he definitely was in the super bowl, however, and you can't ignore that) we're simply saying we would take two other very good quarterbacks over him.

As for whoever said Brady shouldn't make the Pro Bowl, I agree so far, but it doesn't change the fact that he will.
Well the Steelers certainly wouldn't have went 15-1 or won the superbowl with Charlie Batch or Tommy Maddox at the helm.
haha....Keep those names out of this discussion for your own sake.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Well the Steelers certainly wouldn't have went 15-1 or won the superbowl with Charlie Batch or Tommy Maddox at the helm.
Proof? All I've seen from Batch this year indicates that he's better than Ben.

Not that I believe he is, but I at least could present evidence. Perhaps they would have gone 16-0 with Batch? Hm.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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would anyone in here argue that if philip or eli were at the helm of last years steelers, pittsburgh would NOT have won the Super Bowl?
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Well the Steelers certainly wouldn't have went 15-1 or won the superbowl with Charlie Batch or Tommy Maddox at the helm.
Proof? All I've seen from Batch this year indicates that he's better than Ben.

Not that I believe he is, but I at least could present evidence. Perhaps they would have gone 16-0 with Batch? Hm.
Ben came in the 3rd Quarter against Balti when they were already losing.

Batch had a good game over the worst or 2nd worst team in the league.

I like Batch but he's not the same leader that Roeth Is.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Well the Steelers certainly wouldn't have went 15-1 or won the superbowl with Charlie Batch or Tommy Maddox at the helm.
Proof? All I've seen from Batch this year indicates that he's better than Ben.

Not that I believe he is, but I at least could present evidence. Perhaps they would have gone 16-0 with Batch? Hm.
Ben came in the 3rd Quarter against Balti when they were already losing.

Batch had a good game over the worst or 2nd worst team in the league.

I like Batch but he's not the same leader that Roeth Is.
I don't think Batch is as good as Ben, but you can't just start making wild assumptions to back your QB. I believe that even with Batch in at QB in the superbowl they would have won. Perhaps by more.
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Old 10-16-2006, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
so you don't think manning or rivers coulda done what ben did in 2005 if they were with the steelers?
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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I like Rivers. loads of potential and is a real testement to what can happen if you sit a QB for 2 years.
Eli (as an individual) has proven himself the most, but I'm a little worried that he's leveled off and this is as good as he gets. the playoff performance is hard to get over too.
Ben does what is asked of him. not somebody i'd want to build a team around though.
You'd be short a SB ring then. Looked like he did what he was asked of him in the playoffs and led them to a SB win. Kinda hard to knock that.
so you don't think manning or rivers coulda done what ben did in 2005 if they were with the steelers?
I don't deal in hypotheticals. Ben did it and contrary to what some of you are saying, they did not do it in spite of him, not even close. Who tackled Nick Harper? Ben. Who threw touchdowns against Denver to send him to Detroit? Ben. Who scored on a scramble in the Super Bowl and set up another score with a deep pass to Hines Ward? Ben. He most certainly did his part and was not making mistake after mistake. There is a difference between mixing the run and the pass and being a "caretaker" QB.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.
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Old 10-16-2006, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I don't deal in hypotheticals. Ben did it and contrary to what some of you are saying, they did not do it in spite of him, not even close. Who tackled Nick Harper? Ben. Who threw touchdowns against Denver to send him to Detroit? Ben. Who scored on a scramble in the Super Bowl and set up another score with a deep pass to Hines Ward? Ben. He most certainly did his part and was not making mistake after mistake. There is a difference between mixing the run and the pass and being a "caretaker" QB.
Who completed less than 50% of passes in the superbowl? Ben. Who threw two interceptions and no touchdowns in the superbowl? Ben. Who had the lowest QB rating ever for a winning QB in the Superbowl? Ben.
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