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Old 10-12-2006, 04:41 PM    (permalink
Number 10
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Snortie.


Please show me where I called Ben bad.
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Snortie....I did the searching for you. Please read my bolded statement before you make falase assumptions.


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If anything, Ben recieved too much love on this site. I don't see how anyone can put in the claim that he gets bashed too easily. I'll try to sum up my thoughts briefly...


I admire Ben more than you believe, and as of right now I have him ranked as my #10 QB in the league right behind Eli. Prior to the 2004 draft, I was calling for Ben so that we could get our franchise guy and keep all of our picks, which we obviously could have used. But after watching almost every single one of both their games in the NFL, I am feeling much more secure with Eli at the helm than I would be with Ben calling the shots.

Physically, there is not too much of a difference. They both have similar arm strength in terms of short, intermediate routes and deep balls. If you want to give the edge to Ben there, be my guest, I won't fight it too hard because the difference, if any, is minimal. Ben is also faster and more effective outside of the pocket, a dimension I sometimes wish Eli had. So if you want to compare the two from a physical standpoint, I have to give a slight edge to Ben.

But where Eli really creates seperation in this debate is in the intangibles area. He has proved time after time that he can take the game into his own hands when it matters most and lead his team to victory. He never lets pressure get to his head, even though he is playing in arguably the most difficult market in the football world. His comeback victories and late game heroics are not luck because he continues to do the same thing time and time again. He also has a little "Peyton" in him in the sense that he studies to no end during the season and during the offseason. I have a buddy that works at the Stadium all year for practices and workouts and he said Eli was there more often than any of the coaches, including Coughlin. He worked his butt off in the film room and the weight room and I can really tell a huge difference in his play to this point. He clearly was not in the best physical shape last year and was not ready to throw the ball 500+ times, hence why he fell apart late in the year. Eli has not even come close to reaching his full potential because his work ethic parallels Peyton's, and sit there and think about how much Peyton has progressed since his second season as a starter.

Yes, I realize Ben has a ring, yada yada yada. I already stated that it does not take a special QB to win a Super Bowl to say the least. To say that the Steelers had a simple offense that relied on the running game and strong defensive play would be an understatement. It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years. I know he will improve over the course of the season, but I don't see him maintaining the level of play his numbers indicated his first two years. His offensive line has been poor, but the Giants line was terrible against the Eagles and what did Eli do? He is able to make adjustments, something Ben still needs to prove. The running game is not there for the Steelers. Well, the running game has been up and down for the Giants, yet Eli has been playing consistently well. The WRs and TE play for the Steelers has been poor. Well, Plaxico Burress is dropping balls every week, Sinorice Moss can't get on the field, Tim Carter has had a few big drops and Shockey is very, VERY banged up. All I heard from the Steelers fans throughout the offseason was how underrated Hines Ward is and how Heath Miller is a legit playmaker. Come on now, you can't have it both ways.

That was a little bit longer than I was intending, but pick it apart if you wish.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
Huh? Are you trying to argue that the Giants don't have a very good run game? No one would take Bettis and Parker over Barber. You are technically correct, the Giants had the #6 rushing offense last year, while the Steelers were the #5 running team.But the Giants rushing attack was incredibly more efficient than the Steelers last year, and only had 15 less rushing yards than the Steelers. Arguing that Eli hasn't had a run game is just wrong.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Zim3031
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Originally Posted by Shiver
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...

I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Shiver
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...

I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.
The Steelers running game actually struggled a fair bit last year, particularly in the playoffs. I don't even believe Ben is a top qb, but its just ridiculous how little credit he is getting here. The Steelers would not have won the Superbowl without Ben, because without him they don't win at Indie or Denver or even make the playoffs. Could Eli (who I think is the best qb out of these 3) have done it? I don't know and it depends on which Eli showed up. They wouldn't have won any playoffs games with the way Eli was playing at the end of last year (the entire last 3rd of the season, not just the Panthers game). Its too early to tell with Rivers.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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He's not as good as Steelers fans believe he is. But he's not as bad as he's played this year. How he finishes off this season will be very telling as to how his career will end up. All I know is I am sick of the "W-L" and "Super Bowl" reasoning point, as a reason why QB X is better than QB Y.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning is the best QB of the class IMO. That said, I'd take San Diego's side of the trade for the #1 pick every time. Rivers + Merriman (or for a 4-3 team, a different 1st round pick) + Kaeding>>>>>>Manning
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.
If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
If you recall, the giants did poorly as an entire team, including the coaches. Our starting LBers were injured and we had 3 players starting that couldn't hold their own in NFL Europe. Tiki, a well respected leader on the giants, came out and said that they got outcoached. You can't put that loss on Eli alone. Nobody from the giants did good in that game.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

Good for him
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.
The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line. Either way, no one can claim that Eli didn't have a good run game.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

Good for him
Harrrooooo!!!!
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.
The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line.
The right side is. The combination of Snee and McKenzie.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that
I think '07 will be his last year. This year and one more.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.
Ben Roethlisberger last year had more attempts passing on first down than he did on 2nd and 3rd. He also has a passer rating of 119. The steelers tendencies last year was to put up a score fast and hard, then grind the ball out on the ground to preserve victory. This conception that the steelers just run the ball twice then threw once is just incorrect.

Quote:
Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.
If all he did was "manage" his team then how have the Steeler, who have been stuck with mediocrity at the QB position for years, only start winning like mad when Ben came into town. And don't say that it's because their defense and running game was better. That's just not true.

Quote:
You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.
Loses it more so than he wins? He's lost one playoff game in his career. Last I checked he played alright in Denver when the Steelers couldn't run the ball at all. Including the second half.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:59 PM    (permalink
ricky bobby
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
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Originally Posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that
I think '07 will be his last year. This year and one more.
I think he'll retire after this year. He has a bright future as a sportscaster ahead of him. Very likeable and charasmatic guy.
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Old 10-12-2006, 05:59 PM    (permalink
cgf
 
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.
How to put this sensitively, I . . . want to plow you.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:01 PM    (permalink
Windy
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Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.Windy is so money.
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you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:05 PM    (permalink
cgf
 
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Originally Posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:14 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Note: Dick LeBeau coming back to Pitt the same year Ben got drafted has meant more for the team than Ben himself.
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