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Old 05-01-2007, 02:12 PM    (permalink
JK17
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Originally Posted by Non_Sequitur View Post
Who have they changed?
Well, I mean I don't agree with eveyrone who thinks the Pats will automatically change everyone who plays on their team but to name one guy...Corey Dillon had attitude questions similar to Moss going to NE and he turned out good to name one.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Well, I mean I don't agree with eveyrone who thinks the Pats will automatically change everyone who plays on their team but to name one guy...Corey Dillon had attitude questions similar to Moss going to NE and he turned out good to name one.
:) Corey Dillon was nothing like Moss. Dillon never quit on his team. He never slacked off on plays, or refused to go into the game when he was asked to.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.
But he didn't quit on his team like Jake.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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i never said he did, im just saying he would talk out against the organization (bengals) and his teammates, none of which he did while he was here in new england
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.
but he still played. moss gave up on the raiders last year. granted they were on their way to have the #1 pick, but you get paid to play football, so play. i think that moss will have a change of heart because he will want a superbowl ring to solidify himself as a hall of famer.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Non_Sequitur View Post
:) Corey Dillon was nothing like Moss. Dillon never quit on his team. He never slacked off on plays, or refused to go into the game when he was asked to.
It was actually, very, very similar to Moss' situation...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...28/ai_n6142167
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From the moment Corey Dillon was traded to New England in April, the question wasn't what the oft-troubled running back could bring the Patriots on the field. Rather, why would coach Bill Belichick accumulate so many players of high character, only to add someone with a notoriously selfish reputation who once refused to enter a game?
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That might not seem like much, but it represented a substantial reversal from Dillon's days in Cincinnati, where he fought the Bengals over every penny and was mostly a no-show during the offseason, when he preferred to pursue his aggressive workouts on his own. In Cincinnati, Dillon came to define the term "malcontent," but he arrived in Foxboro having left his infamous attitude by the banks of the Ohio River.
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Dillon suffered one of the few injuries of his career (a groin strain) and missed three games, losing his job to Rudi Johnson. When Dillon returned, he was asked to play a role. He responded by pouting.
I can't believe I'm defending the Pats in one thread, despite seeing the attitude of some Patriots fans in others that have been locked...
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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It was actually, very, very similar to Moss' situation...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...28/ai_n6142167






I can't believe I'm defending the Pats in one thread, despite seeing the attitude of some Patriots fans in others that have been locked...
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying that the pats cant do any wrong, my feeling is that until it happens i ha ve faith in pioli and belicheck's decisions. I will agree with you that without knowing what team made the deals, i probably would have guessed the redskins
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i don't care how much pats fans and apologists want to deny it, if you heard about all the signings without knowing who did it, your first guess would be the redskins. it will be intriguing to see whether the moves even vaguely work out. i understand the "they've done it before" attitude, but this thinking that the pats are somehow infallible is funny.
I'm not sure if you were referring to me as an apologist because I had taken the Pats side in this one, but I figured I'd make my opinion a little more clear anyway.

I don't think the Pats are infallible and I think they could be making a huge mistake. I don't thikn they definitely are, but I think they very well could be making a huge mistake. Basically, it's really up in the air. They made a lot of questionable moves in the offseason, and I don't think its guaranteed they change Moss' atttitude, but if any team were to do it, I would bet on the Patriots to do it.

That being said, even if they do change their attitude I don't think it means they are only looking at this years Super Bowl, as was said earlier, and I don't thikn they are even a lock for it, as is the common assumption by some.

No matter what gets said, the facts won't change. They brought in a ton of talent this offseason. It makes them a scary team, and they are the most likely to change poor, selfish attitudes. They are not a lock for the Super Bowl, or to get that talent to live up to its potential. And they have not developed a win now or bust attitude.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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i was thinking of the media, more than anyone here. and sure, that's a lot of great talent they've added. awesome. i just find it interesting that, especially after numerous free agent threads pointed out that the most consistently successful teams DON'T dip into big time free agency, everyone wants to blow belichick for abandoning a philosophy that won him 3 super bowls.

*shrug* i'm not saying they won't win another one now, but the reaction is interesting to me.
Oh alright yeah, just wanted to make sure. I'm sure you saw the two locked threads regarding the Pats essentially being guaranteed the trophy this year and nothing makes me more mad then that.

That's an interesting note too though...with all the obsession the media gave to Bellichek's "high character" philosophy over the past few years, they seem just as accepting and praising of him abandoning that policy big time this year. Gotta take everything they say with a grain of salt.
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Old 05-01-2007, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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Oh alright yeah, just wanted to make sure. I'm sure you saw the two locked threads regarding the Pats essentially being guaranteed the trophy this year and nothing makes me more mad then that.

That's an interesting note too though...with all the obsession the media gave to Bellichek's "high character" philosophy over the past few years, they seem just as accepting and praising of him abandoning that policy big time this year. Gotta take everything they say with a grain of salt.
Let it go already. I've apologized.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Let it go already. I've apologized.
...I didn't call you out I was just bringing up other evidence that I don't agree with the notion the Patriots are a Super Bowl lock....
Don't take it that personally I was just citing another thread.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm judging track record. Corey Dillon, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Brian Cox, these are all guys that came in with issues and all of them stepped in line and played the part.

Corey Dillon threw his pads in the stands and quit on the Bengals. How is that any different then anything Randy Moss did? A lot of people quit on the Raiders last year. He's just the most prominent.

Here is what Bill Belichick has to say:

http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia....&il=en&index=2

If it's good enough for him, and considering all he has done, why wouldn't it be good enough for everyone else? Until it happens, it hasn't happened, and the Patriots track record is what it is.

So I don't think it's out of line what-so-ever for Pats fans to sit here and have confidence that these players will be no different then anyone else that has come into the system and worn the uniform. And since it is May 1st, I don't think anyone is qualified to say they know where things will be five months from now...
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm judging track record. Corey Dillon, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Brian Cox, these are all guys that came in with issues and all of them stepped in line and played the part.

Corey Dillon threw his pads in the stands and quit on the Bengals. How is that any different then anything Randy Moss did? A lot of people quit on the Raiders last year. He's just the most prominent.

Here is what Bill Belichick has to say:

http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia....&il=en&index=2

If it's good enough for him, and considering all he has done, why wouldn't it be good enough for everyone else? Until it happens, it hasn't happened, and the Patriots track record is what it is.

So I don't think it's out of line what-so-ever for Pats fans to sit here and have confidence that these players will be no different then anyone else that has come into the system and worn the uniform. And since it is May 1st, I don't think anyone is qualified to say they know where things will be five months from now...
I'm not saying Moss won't change but for however strong the argument that the Pats haven't not changed a player yet is, you can make another strong argument that Moss has been a problem for a while now and will not be changed wherever he goes. His track record isn't pretty if we are going to judge this sitaution by track records.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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*shrug* bringing in those guys (dillon in 2004, harrison in 2003, washington for one season in 2003, cox for one season in 2001) was done in a COMPLETELY different way than what new england has done this year (edit: IE, they were brought in at different times and one at a time, rather than all in one season).

further, holding onto a problem child for one winning season and then letting him walk is in no way impressive or indicative of an organization's ability to reform players. unless you believe the team intends to release some significant portion of it's acquisitions this year, they're not overly relevant.

further, i'm still waiting for you to point out a time when the patriots made similar moves in free agency. i'm not doubting that the pats won't be a good football team, but then, this thread asks if they're getting desperate. i find it interesting how quickly a pats fan would like to dismiss that notion, in spite of substantial evidence to the contrary.
I don't understand what you're getting at. What do you mean by "similar moves" ? They've traded for everyone but Dante Stallworth, Kyle Brady and Adalius Thomas. So what similar signings are you looking for? How about Rosie Colvin? That was a big contract. So there's a comparison to Thomas. Kyle Brady is exactly the type of player they bring in, so that's a wash. That leaves us with Stallworth, whose deal is back loaded and easily manageable. So what are we freaking out over?

And we don't need to turn Randy Moss's career around. The examples given of Ted Washington and Brian Cox are perfect, because what they did when they left New England is irrelevant. What they did while they were here proves my theory. Realistically, they only have to "change" Randy Moss for one year.

And seriously, Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli have gone out of their way to talk about their system and how they do things in New England. Listen to what they had to say about it:

BB: http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia....&il=en&index=2

SP: http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia....&il=en&index=1

They both speak GLOWINGLY about Randy Moss, and they have done something no one on this message board can even pretend to have done, and that's actually interacted with Moss. We know nothing more than what the media wants us to know. They did their homework. They both stated this is not something that happened over-night. Bill Belichick said he learned most of what he knows about Randy Moss from DOUG GABRIEL, a guy he clashed with and cut!! Kind of ironic I would say.

So the bottom line is, I trust Belichick and Pioli's decision because they have ALWAYS made the right decision. Tell me a move they have made that has really hurt them. The closest anyone can come is Deion Branch, but lets look at this realistically:

We trade Deion Branch for what turns out to be the #24 pick. Having two first round picks allows us to get a major piece to the defensive puzzle (Meriweather), and also gives us the luxury of trading the second first for a pick that is guaranteed to be higher than #28 next year, and a fourth round pick that they turned into... Randy Moss.

Who would you rather have? Deion Branch or Randy Moss and a first round pick? Seems pretty simple to me.

But the end reality is that no one is qualified to talk about what is going to happen when Randy Moss goes to the Patriots, because it hasn't happened yet. It's all speculation, on both sides.

Realistically, even if Moss comes here and acts a fool, we kick his ass to the curve, he loses out on over $15 million and we lose out on a defensive back that I've never heard of.

You don't win Super Bowls without taking risks. This is a low risk with a very high reward potential. I'll take it every day of the week.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't see the patriots being desperate for a few reasons:
1) signing moss is very low risk, as they could simply cut him if he became that big of a problem, while only giving up a 4th round pick for him
2) they needed players to come in and play right now while the older core (bruschi, vrabel, harrison etc.) are still around and playing at a competitive level, hence why they signed more free agents this year.
3) the pats have made splashes in free agency before, albeit not nearly as mucha s this year. for instance, trading for dillon, signing colvin from the bears, signing harrison, washington, cox, etc.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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further, i'm still waiting for you to point out a time when the patriots made similar moves in free agency. i'm not doubting that the pats won't be a good football team, but then, this thread asks if they're getting desperate. i find it interesting how quickly a pats fan would like to dismiss that notion, in spite of substantial evidence to the contrary.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think adding talent is a bad thing. The argument about us not dipping into free agency simply isn't true.
Mike Vrabel, Rosevelt Colvin, Junior Seau, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and Heath Evans were all signed in free agency, and all started multiple games for us this year. I'll give you the fact we've never made huge, big name splashes in free agency as of late. The biggest signing we've had in the past 6 years(not counting this season) was Rosevelt Colvin.
Look at it this way, in terms of those guys fitting in. The only starter we brought in on defense this year is Adalius Thomas. He fits in perfectly to what we do, so that's not really a concern. We've brought in new linebackers before and haven't had a problem yet. As for the offensive side of the ball, we've really had a TON of movement there, especially last year. In the past five(2001-2006) years, we've had 4 different leading receivers. Troy Brown twice, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Reche Caldwel, and that's not even factoring in the key contributions David Patten made. We only have one of those guys right now(Troy will probably come back though). So really, we've been constantly making moves in free agency. Just not high profile moves. The reason it works for us is because we're good at identifying guys that fit into our system. We're not spending dollars blindly here. We're actually going to have fewer new guys making starts this year than we did last year.
I don't think that just because a guy is a household name that it will be anything different than in times past. We've counted on free agents and new arrivals making big contributions on our team for years. There isn't any foreseeable reason that just because there is a discrepancy in talent with the guys we've brought in years past and this batch of guys that it will be any different.
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Old 05-01-2007, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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I think its a legit possibility for the reasons he just posted. I was thinking the same exact thing.

All these moves he's made are very polarizing compared to his blueprint to success. It seems like he wants one final hurrah before he leaves.

The BP 3-4 back in NY baby! I would do backflips for 3 days straight if that ever happened.
I'd want the BP 3-4 to come back to NY too. Just to see you do backflips for three days straight.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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let's be honest first, i don't care about randy moss and i'm not arguing he won't fit in. i'm simply saying that the patriots (to answer the above quote) have completely abandoned, for all intents and purposes, a philosophy that won them 3 super bowls.
Did you have a chance to listen to those two interviews? They both said, repeatedly, that they have done nothing to change any kind of philosophy. Their philosophy is to bring in the best players they can at a price that makes sense. And that is what they are doing.

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what i mean by that is that they have NEVER gone after this many "superstar" (define as you will) players via free agency and trades in a single off-season.
Maybe they've never walked into a situation like these? Guys are taking less to come play for the Patriots. Let's pretend that trade never happened, and Randy Moss went somewhere else. Do you really think he would have only taken 3 mil guaranteed? Randy made this happen. He was the aggressor. He took the massive pay cut to go to New England. And that 2 million bonus only gets paid if he gets 85 catches. I don't think that's very realistic in this offense.

Adalius Thomas and Dante Stallworth also took very affordable deals. Adalius was offered more money to go to San Francisco. Rosie Colvin is the classic example. When the Patriots identify a need, they are going to spend the money to seal the deal. That is why Tom Brady got a big contract. That is why they paid to keep Richard Seymour around. That is why they locked up Matt Light, Dan Koppen, Tedy Bruschi, etc to long term deals at a good price. THAT is the way they operate. They make every move based on whether or not it makes fiscal sense. They don't get married to the romantics surrounding the player. They pay for the work they expect to get off the deal and not past production.

Everyone makes a huge deal out of all the guys they've let walk away, but I'd like to know one guy that has left that we've missed. Just one. I make this challenge every single time the Patriots "philosophy" gets called into question. No one has ever been able to give me a single player.

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again, as much as i hate the patriots (and after going to school in massachusetts, i hate them a lot), i absolutely respect what they've done this off-season. they've made a number of very interesting moves, and if they are able to continue their personnel magic, they just acquired the most physically talented WR in the game for a 4th round pick. that's highway robbery. i'm more concerned about why they've suddenly made so many major moves, which is why i would agree that yes, they're getting a bit desperate. whether that's because belichick is getting ready to retire, or because someone higher up freaked out when they didn't win the super bowl i don't know. in any single off season, one of these moves would be standard operating procedure as far as i've seen. all of them together are decidedly not.
The answer is really easy: they made the moves because they could. Again, guys want to play for the Patriots. I don't understand how they are desperate. Are the 49ers desperate for signing all the guys they've signed? It's part of the process. They made moves that made sense for the team. Those deals weren't there before, so they weren't made.

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edit: none of that is to say that i agree with the media instantly annointing them super bowl champion, but that's a different argument entirely.
Exactly, and I know you're smart enough to know how that works and why it happens. It's a story, and it makes sense.

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i addressed (imo) most of what you said above, but i just wanted to re-qualify that i'm speaking specifically of big name signings. that's never been the patriots MO. again, feel whatever you want to about their ability to make the moves work, their behaviour this off-season has been very out of character.
And again, I am challenging you to listen to the words straight from the horses mouth. Two great, great interviews with the Coach and the man making the moves.

A better question would be: what "Superstars" have been there for them to take in recent years? Who specifically were they supposed to bring in that they didn't? They overspent big time on Rosie Colvin, and they've paid him every dime so far. So what specifically are you talking about?

They've won three Super Bowls in the last six years and made the playoffs in the two years since, went to the AFC Championship last year and realistically, were a play or two away from going back to the Super Bowl. It's not like they fell off the map and are struggling to get back or that a window of opportunity is closing. The entire team is still relatively young.

So in conclusion, these were not "acts of desperation" by any stretch of the imagination. It was simply the team making good moves that made sense for the team through the same process that every other team is allowed to do business by. No more, no less.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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Alright, I won't get into the lolinternetswar(as much as I want to) but I will say this; every team is desperate. Every team will do whatever they think gives them the best shot at winning. And if they don't, they really aren't doing their jobs.
Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.
While we're off-topic...

I like the idea of hall-of-famers with their own link color, but that yellow is WAAAAAYYYY too bright.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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While we're off-topic...

I like the idea of hall-of-famers with their own link color, but that yellow is WAAAAAYYYY too bright.
Is that what that is? I was really confused why my name was yellow. Oh well..
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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If Moss or stallworth get more than 50 receptions each then i guess they make out in the deal.

but dont count on it.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.
He goes on to say in that same conversation that he should be the winner of the "Greatest philosipher award." award. It was an awesome exchange.
Anyway...on topic...
I defiantly agree with Jay, but I'll admit to being biased.
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