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Old 11-01-2006, 06:31 PM    (permalink
 
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I fully expect him to get in and deservingly so.
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Old 11-01-2006, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
I fully expect him to get in and deservingly so.
this would be so many rolling eyes if i hadn't promised sweetnees.

why do you expect him to? what has he done that's hall worthy?
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Old 11-01-2006, 06:46 PM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
I fully expect him to get in and deservingly so.
this would be so many rolling eyes if i hadn't promised sweetnees.

why do you expect him to? what has he done that's hall worthy?
I expect him to simply because of the Super Bowl winning kicks. I fully expect his career percentage of 82.7% to increase over the next few years because he plays at least half his games in a dome rather than in New England. He is also the most clutch kicker in NFL history in most people's minds. If he gets his percentage up like I'm expect him to, then he should get in. I think he and Morten Anderson are the only kickers that should be in.
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
I fully expect him to get in and deservingly so.
this would be so many rolling eyes if i hadn't promised sweetnees.

why do you expect him to? what has he done that's hall worthy?
I expect him to simply because of the Super Bowl winning kicks. I fully expect his career percentage of 82.7% to increase over the next few years because he plays at least half his games in a dome rather than in New England. He is also the most clutch kicker in NFL history in most people's minds. If he gets his percentage up like I'm expect him to, then he should get in. I think he and Morten Anderson are the only kickers that should be in.
fantastic :)
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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hell yes
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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He's made three of the most clutch kicks in the entire history of the NFL and was a big part of the Patriots dynasty.

Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
He's made three of the most clutch kicks in the entire history of the NFL and was a big part of the Patriots dynasty.

Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
agreed...
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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I guess I could say that I'm pretty against kickers being in the Hall of Fame. For the most part, for every big kick they've made, they'd had one that has costed their team a game. Jan Stenerud is a Hall of Fame kicker, and he missed one of the most important kicks of his life, in the 1971 AFC divisional playoff game against the Dolphins.

Remember, too, that Viniatieri missed two field goals in the Superbowl against the Panthers. If he would have made those two routine kicks, they wouldn't have needed to drive down at the end of the game to kick the game winner.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...
Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by duckseason
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dam8610
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...
Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.
I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.
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Old 11-01-2006, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...
Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.
I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.
I don't really feel like making a huge post right now. I'll just say that it sounds like you're giving Vinatieri far too much credit for those SB wins (as most do), and Brady not nearly enough.
I don't care what the original question was. I was responding to your post. The one where you implied that Tom Brady's greatness is somehow attributable to a kicker. And that without said kicker, he'd be any less of a QB than what he is. Tom Brady is rated properly. Whether you hear people speak of him among the all-time greats, or just mention him as a top 3 QB in the league today. Both are true.
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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One of the clutch kickers of all time, he's in for sure.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason
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Originally Posted by Dam8610
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Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...
He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.
Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...
Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.
I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ
Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...
And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.
I don't really feel like making a huge post right now. I'll just say that it sounds like you're giving Vinatieri far too much credit for those SB wins (as most do), and Brady not nearly enough.
I don't care what the original question was. I was responding to your post. The one where you implied that Tom Brady's greatness is somehow attributable to a kicker. And that without said kicker, he'd be any less of a QB than what he is. Tom Brady is rated properly. Whether you hear people speak of him among the all-time greats, or just mention him as a top 3 QB in the league today. Both are true.
Bottom line: Did Brady make the kicks? No. As always, Brady had to rely on the rest of the team to get the job done. Look at what happened to the Patriots in the two years in Brady's tenure as starting QB in New England in which the Patriots didn't have a top 10 scoring defense: 2002 and 2005. They missed the playoffs in 2002, and they made the playoffs in 2005, solely because they played in a HORRIBLE division, and got bounced by the first team with a competent offense they faced. I'm sure their defensive prowess has had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their success though... :roll:

Also, had Brady been dealing with Vandershank kicking FGs for him instead of Vinatieri, the flip of a coin would have decided at least two of the Super Bowls the Patriots won. If you've EVER watched Vandershank kick a 40+ yard FG with the game on the line, you know this to be a fact. So, to say that in no way is Vinatieri is responsible for Tom Brady's current status is pretty ridiculous, considering that had those kicks been missed, those games would have been decided on the flip of a coin. If you honestly feel that anyone would be discussing Brady among the all-time greats had the Patriots not won 3 Super Bowls (a very distinct possibility had they not had Vinatieri), then your standards for "all-time greats" are pretty low, and considering the fact that he's never won without a great defense and a great kicking game that had to wind up bailing him out each and every time, I don't see why he should get so much credit for a team accomplishment, one that he had to rely on his kicker to complete each and every time. So, why should he get so much credit? If he shouldn't, why else would you consider him among the all-time greats?
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.
without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?
That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by draftguru151
I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.
without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?
That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.
he made some plays?

30 carries 157 yards and 3 touchdowns, after sitting out the second quarter with a migraine? and in a game in which john elway was compeltely ineffective (under 50% completions, 123 yards, 1 interception). i would say that's pretty dang tangible.
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Old 11-03-2006, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.
without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?
That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.
he made some plays?

30 carries 157 yards and 3 touchdowns, after sitting out the second quarter with a migraine? and in a game in which john elway was compeltely ineffective (under 50% completions, 123 yards, 1 interception). i would say that's pretty dang tangible.
Yeah, he was a stud, but he didn't score the game winning TD on the last play of the game. That's what's getting Vinatieri in the Hall. So it's not a fair comparison.
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Old 11-03-2006, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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We can't compare kickers to running backs, it has no substance. The HOF recognizes great players at EVERY position, or at least it should. Having that said, kicker is a position in football. And its an important position at that. Ask any fan of a team with a bad kicker. Kickers can be the difference between a good team and a bad team sometimes. Their worth is undervalued.

And Vinatieri has been the most recognized clutch kicker that any of us can recall. If it was easy kicking, every team would have a good kicker. Its time we give the position some credit, kickers are important, and at least some of them should get in the Hall.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
We can't compare kickers to running backs, it has no substance. The HOF recognizes great players at EVERY position, or at least it should. Having that said, kicker is a position in football. And its an important position at that. Ask any fan of a team with a bad kicker. Kickers can be the difference between a good team and a bad team sometimes. Their worth is undervalued.

And Vinatieri has been the most recognized clutch kicker that any of us can recall. If it was easy kicking, every team would have a good kicker. Its time we give the position some credit, kickers are important, and at least some of them should get in the Hall.
some of them should, but i still think <10 plays is a pretty lame excuse to put someone in the hall. and i'm nto comparing the players, just the lame argument used to get one in the hall while the other is typically excluded. like i said, if the guy had been a great kicker over his career? great. but he's only been "great" for the last few years. like i said earlier, it wasn't all that long ago that he hit 70% of his kicks. that's terrible for the first kicker to get into the hall of fame. i just don't buy for one second that you can put someone in the hall on the strength of a few plays and ESPECIALLY when that player would be the first at his position. he's not the greatest kicker of all time, and i find it absolutely funny that people on this board believe he is.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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We can't compare kickers to running backs, it has no substance. The HOF recognizes great players at EVERY position, or at least it should. Having that said, kicker is a position in football. And its an important position at that. Ask any fan of a team with a bad kicker. Kickers can be the difference between a good team and a bad team sometimes. Their worth is undervalued.

And Vinatieri has been the most recognized clutch kicker that any of us can recall. If it was easy kicking, every team would have a good kicker. Its time we give the position some credit, kickers are important, and at least some of them should get in the Hall.
some of them should, but i still think <10 plays is a pretty lame excuse to put someone in the hall. and i'm nto comparing the players, just the lame argument used to get one in the hall while the other is typically excluded. like i said, if the guy had been a great kicker over his career? great. but he's only been "great" for the last few years. like i said earlier, it wasn't all that long ago that he hit 70% of his kicks. that's terrible for the first kicker to get into the hall of fame. i just don't buy for one second that you can put someone in the hall on the strength of a few plays and ESPECIALLY when that player would be the first at his position. he's not the greatest kicker of all time, and i find it absolutely funny that people on this board believe he is.
My thing with kickers is that its more important to hit the clutch kick not the % kick. If that were the case, Vanderjagt is the best kicker ever, because he is the most "accurate". But put him in a big moment, and Vanderjagt literally misses it every time. So how do we rate this? Its a difficult answer with no right or wrong, but for me personally, its all about the clutch kick. I want a kicker who I know can get me the kick when I need it the most. And while Vinatieri might not be the best overall kicker ever, I don't think there ever was a more clutch kicker than him.

Put Morten in first. Then Vinatieri. That would be fair. But I think his impact on the game's history is too large for him to be ignored. Joe Namath made it based on a prediction moreso than actual play. Namath's body of work over an entire career was not HOF worthy, but he got in because of his impact on the history of the game.
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
We can't compare kickers to running backs, it has no substance. The HOF recognizes great players at EVERY position, or at least it should. Having that said, kicker is a position in football. And its an important position at that. Ask any fan of a team with a bad kicker. Kickers can be the difference between a good team and a bad team sometimes. Their worth is undervalued.

And Vinatieri has been the most recognized clutch kicker that any of us can recall. If it was easy kicking, every team would have a good kicker. Its time we give the position some credit, kickers are important, and at least some of them should get in the Hall.
some of them should, but i still think <10 plays is a pretty lame excuse to put someone in the hall. and i'm nto comparing the players, just the lame argument used to get one in the hall while the other is typically excluded. like i said, if the guy had been a great kicker over his career? great. but he's only been "great" for the last few years. like i said earlier, it wasn't all that long ago that he hit 70% of his kicks. that's terrible for the first kicker to get into the hall of fame. i just don't buy for one second that you can put someone in the hall on the strength of a few plays and ESPECIALLY when that player would be the first at his position. he's not the greatest kicker of all time, and i find it absolutely funny that people on this board believe he is.
My thing with kickers is that its more important to hit the clutch kick not the % kick. If that were the case, Vanderjagt is the best kicker ever, because he is the most "accurate". But put him in a big moment, and Vanderjagt literally misses it every time. So how do we rate this? Its a difficult answer with no right or wrong, but for me personally, its all about the clutch kick. I want a kicker who I know can get me the kick when I need it the most. And while Vinatieri might not be the best overall kicker ever, I don't think there ever was a more clutch kicker than him.

Put Morten in first. Then Vinatieri. That would be fair. But I think his impact on the game's history is too large for him to be ignored. Joe Namath made it based on a prediction moreso than actual play. Namath's body of work over an entire career was not HOF worthy, but he got in because of his impact on the history of the game.
I could go with something more along those lines... i just cannot justify him as the greatest kicker ever. but don't think i disagree with you, it's absolutely about more than simple numbers with a kicker in some ways. but again, I would absolutely put a guy like Morten Anderson who WAS clearly the best kicker in the league for several years (again, we'd need scorchin or someone to verify that he wasn't the vanderjagt of the early '80s) in first. But i wouldn't mind seeing Vinatieri get in on the third ballot or so and after another kicker.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.
without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?
Denver would have won the Super Bowl against Atlanta if John Elway's grandmother lined up at RB. No way would that dysfunctional team (Atlanta) win. And Terrell Davis was a non factor in the Super Bowl against Atlanta.

Adam Venetari will need to play a much longer career if he makes it to the Hall of Fame. Morten Andersen and Gary Anderson are worthy as well.
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